Sexual Shame, Religious Trauma & Ethical Non-Monogamy with Sex Therapist Natasha Helfer

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All right, y'all.

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Before we dive in, a quick heads-up

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This show is raw, real,
and definitely not rated PG

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We're talking about adult themes,
sexual content, and the kinda stuff you

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probably don't want blasting through
your speakers at work or around your kids

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So grab some headphones, pour your
drink of choice, and get comfy

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Oh, and just so we're clear,
we are not licensed therapists,

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counselors, or sex couches.

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Sex coaches.

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Sex coaches

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Not sex couches

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We're just a couple of people sharing
our lives, experiences, and sexy

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adventures in ethical non-monogamy.

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So with that, pull up a
chair and enjoy the show

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Hello, and welcome to another
episode of Beyond Monogamy.

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I'm Adam.

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And I'm Pris.

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And today we are so excited to be
sitting down with Natasha Helfer, an

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AASECT-certified sex therapist, author,
and founder of Symmetry Counseling,

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who's spent the last three decades
helping people untangle religious and

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sexual shame, and reconnect with their
own bodies, desires, and autonomy.

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Natasha's story made national
headlines after she was excommunicated

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from the LDS Church for speaking
openly about sex, faith, and

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mental health, all important stuff.

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And she's been doing some of
the boldest, most compassionate

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work in this space ever since.

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So if you've ever felt like your body
or your desires were something to be

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ashamed of, this is the episode for you.

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That's right.

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And before we jump in, if you're
new here, please hit follow so

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you don't miss another episode.

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And head to beyond-monogamy.com
for all our links, past episodes,

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and ways to connect with us.

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Natasha, welcome to the show.

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Yes.

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Oh my goodness.

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Thank you so much.

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That was a really nice intro.

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I feel all special now.

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Everybody says that.

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Everybody says that.

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I'm like, "You make them so long." He's
like, "I gotta hype up our guests."

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I'm like, "That's… That- Well, you-

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…
that's

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right."

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And, you know, for me, our, our
guests are our part of our community.

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Yeah.

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And- Mm-hmm

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Yeah

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…
our show exists to hype, hype
up the people in our community.

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And, you know, that's, that's
really what I'm like, you know,

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let's, let's throw it all out there.

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And if

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he has me read it, I stop in the middle.

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I'm like, "That's too much reading."
She's like, "That's too much

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reading.

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I can't do this." I can't do

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that.

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And I'm like, "But that's fun
reading. That's happy reading." He's

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better at it anyway.

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Well, I

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can relate.

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But welcome.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Welcome, welcome.

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You're- I run, I run a podcast
too, and it's the same thing.

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I, I always feel like the intros
are so long, but I'm trying

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to get all that info in there.

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I know.

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So I get it.

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Yeah.

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If

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you think the intro's
long, wait till the outro.

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Okay.

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I'm here for it.

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The afterglow, right?

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Like-

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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It's good if it's… It's
good if it's long and slow.

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That's very true.

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That goes for a lot of different
things, I can tell you that.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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Um, now, you know, I was initially
turned on by you through Pris.

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Mm-hmm.

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Pris had, uh, actually
found you on TikTok.

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I now follow you myself, and
I gotta tell you, your story

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initially hooked me in because I
f- I was very fascinated by that.

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But then everything that you have to
follow and everything that you talk

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about is just 20 times more interesting.

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Mm-hmm.

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So we're gonna start at the beginning
if we could, and I, I, I'd love for you

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to tell your story on how you got here.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That, that'll only take three hours.

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But, um We can do that.

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The short version.

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Right, the short version.

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Cribs notes

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will be fine.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I th- I grew up like a lot of folks,
you know, like in, in what I would say

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conservative religious spaces, right?

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I, I happened to get the Mormon brand of
that, uh, or the Mormon flavor and and

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that, that faith community tends to be,
fairly strict in regards to sexuality,

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as a lot of other religious- Yeah … you
know, folks grow up either Jehovah's

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Witness or Catholic or Orthodox Jewish
or, you know, there's-- and of course-

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I was in the Catholic seminary, so-

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You were in the Catholic-

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Yeah, I was.

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That was,

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that was your flavor.

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Yeah, I was, I was in training
to be a priest, uh- Yeah.

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… in my early 20s, so yeah.

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I get

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it.

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Okay.

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That means you've got a good story too.

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So, yeah.

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So I think a lot of us are growing
up in religious communities where

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the term purity culture probably
makes sense to a lot of folks, right?

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Which is this idea that our, our value was
definitely, especially as women, our value

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was in staying pure, virginal with the
idea that you're gonna eventually find,

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you know, your soulmate partner hopefully
within the faith community, too, right?

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Yeah.

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A lot of people care about that, and then
you're, you're gonna start off as virgins,

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and pure, and wholesome, and go off into,
you know, the rainbow land of whatever.

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Like, just, you know, fantasy of-
Happily ever after … um, the

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never… Yeah, the happily ever after.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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And there's a lot of problems with that,
uh, from a lot of different perspectives,

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but especially for us who grew up
religious, there's a lot of imprinted

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shame that gets really internalized.

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You know?

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Mm-hmm.

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And the way that that shows up in my
office a lot of times with my clients is

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like, well, it was like, "No, no, no," and
then all of a sudden it was expected to

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be, "Go, go, go." And that, you know, our
nervous systems don't function like that.

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Mm-hmm.

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You can't, like, download for years,
especially developmentally important

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years when we're supposed to be
curious and exploring some of our

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sexuality, but we're told, "Oh, that's
really, really bad and sinful," and,

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and a lot of these, religions use
pretty horrible words, you know?

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Yeah.

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Like perverse, and
wicked, and abominations,

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and-

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… Slippery slopes to whoredoms and,
you know, just all kinds of just very

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negative, I would say, provocative
language that provokes your nervous

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system to get anxious, and scared,
and worried about your own body, about

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your own sexuality, and of course
the fantasies and things that are…

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don't always fall in that kinda
heteronormative, monogamy privileged

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world that we all get such strong

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downloads

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on.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We see those words a lot on our
comments section, Yeah … like

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on YouTube and stuff like that.

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People- Oh, yeah.

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People who are attacking you.

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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, my goodness.

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Yes.

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I have been called every name
in the book just for posting

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whatever I post and so, yeah.

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I didn't… I never thought about
that, though, what you just said.

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I've never thought about how much that
affects your- your upbringing, right?

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Especially if you don't stay
in that kind of religion.

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I never thought about how it,
your primitive years, your times

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when you're going through puberty
and stuff, it's like, okay, you

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have all these thoughts and now
someone's telling you that it's bad.

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Yeah.

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I never, I didn't think about that.

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I mean, I was g- I grew up
Catholic, but you know, my mom

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always say just, my mom wasn't-

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She grew up a loose Catholic.

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Yeah, a loose Catholic.

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There you go.

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That's, she-

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I mean

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…
they didn't practice that much.

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Yeah, no.

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But I was told- Not like the guy
who was in training to be a priest.

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They- Yeah.

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I was told to save myself.

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Didn't happen, but yeah.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Anyway.

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Exactly.

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And so, yeah, so my path goes down
a pretty similar path as far as

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the religious, you know, downloads.

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Then I was, um, also a victim
of childhood sexual abuse-

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Uh-huh … which is also a very common,
unfortunate shared experience- Yeah

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for many of us.

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And then I did have premarital sex And
a lot of that was, that was interesting

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how I tried to make sense of that because
I really wanted to be the good girl.

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You know, I wasn't like the rebel kind
or wanting to get in trouble, but I was

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also like you, sexually curious and-

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Mm-hmm

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interested.

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I started masturbating
from a very young age.

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I can't remember a time
I didn't masturbate.

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Yeah.

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So I was a, a kind of probably a
high-drive, curious sexual being.

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We all come in different
varieties of that.

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And, um, and so then because I'm having
premarital sex, which is such a sin,

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even though it's with my long-term
boyfriend and wasn't like- Yeah

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a hookup.

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Not that there's anything
wrong with hookups.

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But I'm just saying, you know, it,
it was so interesting how I perceived

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that at the time, and I could only
explain it through my sexual trauma.

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See, I'm broken.

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I'm sexually traumatized,
therefore I'm promiscuous.

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Mm. And I don't have control over my
sexuality because I inherently am broken.

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And granted, remember my definition
of promiscuity at that point was

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one partner, one premarital partner.

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Oh.

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Right.

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Right.

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So then I go through repentance processes
at church, which, you know, some churches

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make you go through that, some don't.

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Confessions, things of that.

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And then I I hit, uh, my college years,
and I decide to go to Brigham Young

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University, which is the Mormon…

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one of the Mormon universities, and I have
sex again, this time with a fiancé, right?

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And so again, it's pretty
serious, committed relationship.

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But I just thought this was devastating,
you know, that I had done this sin again.

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And, uh, so again, that… and
I went and confessed, and I got

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kicked out of the university.

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So talk about shame downloads, right?

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No kidding.

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Wow.

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Like, you know, this is high-cost
behavior and confessions to be honest

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about what's happening with me sexually.

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Zero trauma-informed help, right?

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It's not like people are looking at
me through a trauma-informed lens.

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They're just looking
at me from that clergy.

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Mm-hmm.

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"
You're doing naughty things, you bad
girl with loose legs," or whatever they

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wanna- Mm-hmm … you know, deem me as.

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And then that sets me up for the damaged
goods narrative, which is very common too.

247
00:09:35,634 --> 00:09:40,594
Like, you know, you're the chewed piece
of gum or you're the, the petal, the rose

248
00:09:40,624 --> 00:09:44,614
wh- everybody has handled your petals
and now you're, you know, withered, and

249
00:09:44,974 --> 00:09:48,304
who's gonna want that type of person-

250
00:09:48,554 --> 00:09:51,924
As I'm choosing, m- a
mate to get married to.

251
00:09:51,924 --> 00:09:55,624
And so I had a lot of shame of
even talking about my premarital

252
00:09:55,624 --> 00:10:00,680
experiences and And that went
into my marriage and impacted our

253
00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:02,350
sexual relationship, of course.

254
00:10:02,350 --> 00:10:03,360
How could it not?

255
00:10:03,590 --> 00:10:03,610
Yeah.

256
00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:08,650
And, um, and then I become a therapist
of mostly religious people, right?

257
00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:13,270
Uh, like Mormons, and I was, um, living
in… A lot of time I was living in the

258
00:10:13,270 --> 00:10:15,410
Bible Belt, like in Wichita, Kansas.

259
00:10:15,490 --> 00:10:17,660
There's a lot of
evangelicals who I would see.

260
00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:17,860
Mm-hmm.

261
00:10:18,110 --> 00:10:20,680
I saw a lot of Catholics,
especially Hispanic Catholics.

262
00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:24,280
My mom's from Argentina, so I'm a white
Latina, so I speak Spanish fluently.

263
00:10:24,810 --> 00:10:29,150
So these themes were just coming
up, of people really feeling

264
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,390
ashamed, judging each other.

265
00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:34,490
You know, when you mentioned, "Oh,
people judge your comments," I, I now

266
00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:36,460
see that as, oh, that's a projection.

267
00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:41,700
You're projecting- Yes … your
own shame onto those of us who've

268
00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,380
maybe deconstructed it a bit.

269
00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:43,560
Mm-hmm.

270
00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:46,250
You know, but you've been taught
to think that way about the world.

271
00:10:46,250 --> 00:10:48,550
You've been taught to think
about that for yourself.

272
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,170
And so now when there's other people
like us who've broken free from all

273
00:10:53,170 --> 00:10:57,500
that stuff, it's like, ooh, you're,
you're really bad 'cause most of- Yeah

274
00:10:57,650 --> 00:11:03,070
… our culture still really demonizes
non-monogamy in so many ways, so.

275
00:11:03,220 --> 00:11:03,290
Wow.

276
00:11:03,580 --> 00:11:03,800
Yeah.

277
00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:06,190
Yeah, so I, I got I got to be a therapist.

278
00:11:06,190 --> 00:11:08,950
I started realizing this isn't
working for a lot of people.

279
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:10,570
The sex stuff isn't working.

280
00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:12,370
The queer stuff isn't working.

281
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,390
The kinky stuff isn't working.

282
00:11:14,390 --> 00:11:18,990
We can't even freaking masturbate
without a lot of guilt, so even-

283
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:24,320
Yeah … self-love isn't working,
and this is having high cost for-

284
00:11:24,820 --> 00:11:28,470
relationships, individual self-esteem.

285
00:11:28,980 --> 00:11:31,180
It can affect your mental
health when you're constantly

286
00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:32,490
in a battle with yourself.

287
00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:32,890
Mm-hmm.

288
00:11:32,890 --> 00:11:38,420
The whole kind of incorrect sex addiction
model that really came out of the '80s

289
00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:43,020
and the AIDS scare is still alive and
well in mostly religious communities.

290
00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:43,710
Oh, yeah.

291
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:48,040
So people, especially men, are constantly
being called sex addicts because they

292
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,950
have a relationship with pornography
or have fantasies that don't just

293
00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:55,880
include their, pristine wife and oof,

294
00:11:56,330 --> 00:11:56,980
We've got a lot.

295
00:11:56,980 --> 00:11:57,040
Wow.

296
00:11:57,050 --> 00:12:00,190
So then I started speaking
about all of that publicly.

297
00:12:00,670 --> 00:12:04,310
And yeah, it got me into a
lot of ecclesiastical trouble.

298
00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:04,850
Mm-hmm.

299
00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:08,880
And in 2021, I went through an
excommunication process with my

300
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,390
church, uh, which was very painful.

301
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,130
I see church environments-- I
mean, some people kinda like leave

302
00:12:15,130 --> 00:12:17,310
and never look back, and they
weren't that really interested.

303
00:12:17,310 --> 00:12:18,980
I was very committed to my religion.

304
00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:21,760
I was very committed to the
people within my religion, so I

305
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,250
saw it more like a family system.

306
00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:26,530
Yeah, it's got problems, and I'm here
to try to hopefully make it better,

307
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:28,290
but I wasn't wanting to leave it.

308
00:12:28,660 --> 00:12:28,850
Yeah.

309
00:12:28,870 --> 00:12:30,370
I was wanting to improve it.

310
00:12:30,540 --> 00:12:31,850
And they were like, "Oh no, you don't."

311
00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:33,270
So out I went.

312
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,790
I did get a divorce from my first husband.

313
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,400
I am now partnered with my old high
school boyfriend, my first sexual partner.

314
00:12:41,810 --> 00:12:41,940
Oh,

315
00:12:41,940 --> 00:12:42,730
we're back together.

316
00:12:42,730 --> 00:12:43,000
Oh, wow.

317
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:43,570
Yes.

318
00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:45,478
and we've come back around full

319
00:12:45,478 --> 00:12:45,755
circle.

320
00:12:45,755 --> 00:12:46,584
That's nothing but

321
00:12:46,584 --> 00:12:46,861
lovely.

322
00:12:46,861 --> 00:12:49,240
Hey, I mean, I totally understand that.

323
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:49,820
Yeah.

324
00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:50,220
Wow.

325
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:50,840
Yeah.

326
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:51,620
That's the happily ever after right there.

327
00:12:51,620 --> 00:12:53,430
that was the happily ever after.

328
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:53,460
Yeah.

329
00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:56,310
And I started working with
folks interested in ethical

330
00:12:56,310 --> 00:13:00,570
non-monogamy way before I entered
the realm myself pr-personally.

331
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,240
Okay.

332
00:13:01,250 --> 00:13:05,010
So I would say for 15 years now I've been
working with ethical non-monogamy folks,

333
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,270
um, especially because a lot of people
who do leave religion are interested

334
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,860
in potentially exploring that space.

335
00:13:12,370 --> 00:13:12,560
Yeah.

336
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:14,250
Um, for a lot of reasons
we can talk about.

337
00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:19,150
But so I was working with a lot of these
folks who were leaving religion, and then

338
00:13:19,180 --> 00:13:24,020
as I started exploring, deconstructing
my own sexual shame, I was like, "I

339
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,960
think I'd like to dabble in this as
well." And my new partner is open and

340
00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:31,210
excited to join me on that journey.

341
00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:33,610
So that's my story- So this
is- … in like a short-

342
00:13:34,220 --> 00:13:34,370
Yeah

343
00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:34,710
…
a short-

344
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:34,730
So-

345
00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:36,310
Hey, you did a great
job … you did a great

346
00:13:36,350 --> 00:13:36,680
job.

347
00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:36,720
Yes.

348
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:42,560
So your f- your first, your now
present husband or partner is… Was

349
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:44,260
he in the religion as well with you?

350
00:13:44,260 --> 00:13:44,750
No.

351
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:45,390
Oh, he wasn't?

352
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:45,760
No.

353
00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:46,200
Okay.

354
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:46,490
No.

355
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:46,950
Okay.

356
00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:47,480
Yeah.

357
00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:48,300
So that is, yeah.

358
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:48,540
Yeah, he

359
00:13:48,540 --> 00:13:50,920
w- he grew up, he's Mexican American.

360
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,830
He grew up raised s- kinda like you.

361
00:13:53,850 --> 00:13:53,870
Yeah.

362
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:54,810
Slightly

363
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:55,430
Catholic.

364
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:55,710
Loosely

365
00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:55,990
Catholic.

366
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:57,130
Loosely Catholic.

367
00:13:57,140 --> 00:13:57,570
Yeah.

368
00:13:57,610 --> 00:13:59,510
Not taking it super seriously.

369
00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:02,250
Definitely didn't have the shame
downloads that I did about sex.

370
00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:03,540
He's very sex positive.

371
00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:05,680
Was sex positive before
we even called it that.

372
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:06,260
Yeah.

373
00:14:06,270 --> 00:14:13,420
And, uh, was very open and, yeah, so
in a way, reconnecting with him and

374
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:18,350
having, you know, a really healthy,
beautiful relationship, um, has been

375
00:14:18,350 --> 00:14:20,050
very healing to me, you know- Yeah

376
00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:23,420
to have a person who has
such a different take.

377
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:24,130
Yeah.

378
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,120
It is nice.

379
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,230
He's my little, he's the one that that
kinda helped me kinda guide through, you

380
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:31,220
know, to accept myself and be more open.

381
00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:32,040
Um- It's

382
00:14:32,050 --> 00:14:33,520
'
cause I talk a lot, is what it is.

383
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:33,870
he does.

384
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:33,910
Right.

385
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,760
You know- Right … there was a few
things that popped up in your story that

386
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:40,580
threw out some, some questions for me.

387
00:14:40,580 --> 00:14:45,890
The first one was initially when, when,
before you got excommunicated, when you,

388
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:52,130
uh, got in trouble, you know, with the
university for your promiscuousness,

389
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:53,280
Yes

390
00:14:54,274 --> 00:14:55,434
Did… i'm just curious My two,

391
00:14:55,674 --> 00:14:57,114
my two and a half partners

392
00:14:57,344 --> 00:14:57,744
Yeah.

393
00:14:57,744 --> 00:15:01,324
Well, so I'm just- Call it two and a half
… I'm just curious on, on, for my own sake

394
00:15:01,364 --> 00:15:08,504
and did they do, like, an equal punishment
for the person that you, uh, were with?

395
00:15:08,934 --> 00:15:13,724
Or was it, did you, was it harder on
you than it was on the other people?

396
00:15:13,724 --> 00:15:16,944
Like, is, was it an
equal kind of punishment?

397
00:15:16,944 --> 00:15:17,354
Situation?

398
00:15:17,354 --> 00:15:17,824
Yeah.

399
00:15:18,174 --> 00:15:18,654
Yeah.

400
00:15:18,654 --> 00:15:22,854
I'll give Mormonism credit that
they trend to be fairly equal.

401
00:15:22,864 --> 00:15:25,474
It's not like in some religions
where, you know, women are t-

402
00:15:25,654 --> 00:15:27,554
are treated very differently- Yes

403
00:15:27,564 --> 00:15:29,064
in the standards- Yeah … than the men.

404
00:15:29,064 --> 00:15:29,154
And that

405
00:15:29,154 --> 00:15:30,244
was my next question.

406
00:15:30,244 --> 00:15:31,004
Okay, cool.

407
00:15:31,004 --> 00:15:31,544
Yeah.

408
00:15:31,544 --> 00:15:33,834
So I mean, nobody's supposed
to have premarital sex.

409
00:15:33,984 --> 00:15:34,004
Yeah.

410
00:15:34,024 --> 00:15:37,054
Now- … that doesn't mean that
there aren't gender differences, and

411
00:15:37,054 --> 00:15:41,774
Mormonism is still very patriarchal,
so it's not a clean yes or no.

412
00:15:41,944 --> 00:15:45,434
But, um, the first, m- you know,
my first confession involved a

413
00:15:45,434 --> 00:15:48,164
person who wasn't in the faith, so-

414
00:15:48,264 --> 00:15:48,954
Okay.

415
00:15:48,954 --> 00:15:51,144
Right … there was nothing
they could do to him, right?

416
00:15:51,144 --> 00:15:51,354
Yeah.

417
00:15:51,354 --> 00:15:55,884
And then my second scenario, he was
in the faith, and we went together

418
00:15:55,884 --> 00:15:59,854
and confessed, and yes, he got
reprimanded in the same ways I would

419
00:15:59,854 --> 00:16:03,444
have been as far as ecclesiastically,
but he wasn't a student at BYU.

420
00:16:03,984 --> 00:16:04,354
Okay.

421
00:16:04,394 --> 00:16:06,682
So he didn't have that same- I gotcha

422
00:16:06,682 --> 00:16:10,624
you know- Yeah … I guess- Yeah
… yeah, co- consequence that I did.

423
00:16:11,104 --> 00:16:14,034
But there are a lot of people who will
tell me stories where they went in and

424
00:16:14,034 --> 00:16:19,854
confessed, you know, individually, but
then they made them tell with who, and

425
00:16:19,854 --> 00:16:23,194
then they bring in- Oh … the other
person, even though maybe that person

426
00:16:23,194 --> 00:16:27,324
wasn't interested in confessing or wasn't
ready to confess or who knows what.

427
00:16:27,824 --> 00:16:27,914
No matter what.

428
00:16:27,914 --> 00:16:27,966
You know?

429
00:16:27,966 --> 00:16:28,030
So- Yeah.

430
00:16:28,030 --> 00:16:28,062
Oof.

431
00:16:28,062 --> 00:16:28,094
Yeah.

432
00:16:28,094 --> 00:16:28,504
Yeah.

433
00:16:28,554 --> 00:16:34,454
I saw that more I was, I was married,
my first marriage I was 18, and he

434
00:16:34,454 --> 00:16:40,014
was Jehovah Witness, and I saw that,
the excommunication and stuff, and

435
00:16:40,524 --> 00:16:42,454
very close, like in the family.

436
00:16:42,814 --> 00:16:48,394
And I was flabbergasted because I
was like, "What do you mean?" Like,

437
00:16:48,394 --> 00:16:50,644
the parents won't talk to them.

438
00:16:50,654 --> 00:16:52,654
They aren't allowed in the house.

439
00:16:53,074 --> 00:16:56,564
Or if they- Right … do, they can
talk they just go in, do their thing.

440
00:16:56,874 --> 00:17:02,144
And I'm like, wow, these, these girls were
youn- or my ex-sister-in-laws were young.

441
00:17:02,144 --> 00:17:04,914
They were, like, 14, 15, you know?

442
00:17:04,914 --> 00:17:08,694
And it's like, how can… You know,
or even one was 18, and I'm like, how

443
00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:13,854
could you, like, not talk to them just
because they did, they kissed a boy that

444
00:17:13,854 --> 00:17:15,824
wasn't in the religion or, or whatever.

445
00:17:15,824 --> 00:17:18,824
And I was- Yeah … wow, that
just- Yeah … curiosity, right?

446
00:17:19,324 --> 00:17:23,204
I was a college student, and I was in
the s- the Catholic seminary, and they

447
00:17:23,204 --> 00:17:27,334
straight up said, "Well, we don't want you
to be, uh, different from anybody else.

448
00:17:27,334 --> 00:17:32,214
You're gonna go to a coed college, and
we want you to assimilate with everybody

449
00:17:32,214 --> 00:17:34,654
your age, but don't talk to women."

450
00:17:34,724 --> 00:17:35,114
Yeah.

451
00:17:35,664 --> 00:17:38,484
And I was like, "Well, what the
hell?" Like, I can't not talk to

452
00:17:38,484 --> 00:17:41,974
women if you… i, I can't do both-
Yeah … of those things at once.

453
00:17:41,984 --> 00:17:42,014
Right.

454
00:17:42,334 --> 00:17:47,074
Like, either I'm with everybody or
I'm somebody who can't talk to women.

455
00:17:47,084 --> 00:17:47,104
Yeah.

456
00:17:47,294 --> 00:17:47,784
Like, I can't.

457
00:17:47,824 --> 00:17:48,074
Right.

458
00:17:48,084 --> 00:17:49,814
And I very much- Right … love women.

459
00:17:50,364 --> 00:17:50,684
Um- Yeah.

460
00:17:51,244 --> 00:17:53,634
And so that was a problem for me.

461
00:17:53,634 --> 00:17:54,234
Yeah.

462
00:17:54,234 --> 00:17:58,314
Like, I enjoyed talking to women, and
I found them very sexually attractive.

463
00:17:58,364 --> 00:18:04,694
And I, like you, were, uh, one of those
kids that started masturbating at a young

464
00:18:04,694 --> 00:18:07,784
age, and I have always- Mm-hmm … had
a very high sex drive, to the point

465
00:18:07,804 --> 00:18:10,804
to where I thought something was
wrong with me- … for so many years.

466
00:18:10,814 --> 00:18:10,844
Mm-hmm.

467
00:18:11,084 --> 00:18:14,724
Right … you know, and you grow up
being raised by the church, and you

468
00:18:14,724 --> 00:18:17,464
grow up thinking that this is not right.

469
00:18:18,024 --> 00:18:22,124
And even in our families, you know,
our entire families, we all went to

470
00:18:22,124 --> 00:18:27,544
church every Sunday, that sort of
thing, but cheating happened often.

471
00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:30,384
My father- Yeah … cheated on
my mother for 30 some odd years.

472
00:18:30,684 --> 00:18:31,044
You know?

473
00:18:31,054 --> 00:18:31,074
Yeah.

474
00:18:31,084 --> 00:18:35,464
Cheating was running rampant, you know,
amongst uncles and aunts and, and who

475
00:18:35,464 --> 00:18:38,034
knows who, and everybody knew about it.

476
00:18:38,454 --> 00:18:42,374
We didn't really talk about it, but
everybody knew, and it was okay.

477
00:18:42,404 --> 00:18:45,024
But when we became
non-monogamous, forget it.

478
00:18:45,024 --> 00:18:45,474
That was it.

479
00:18:45,744 --> 00:18:46,607
We were the- Oh, yeah … black sheep

480
00:18:46,607 --> 00:18:46,672
of the family.

481
00:18:46,672 --> 00:18:46,694
It,

482
00:18:46,694 --> 00:18:46,824
it's

483
00:18:47,114 --> 00:18:51,724
fascinating to me that we as a
culture are 10 times fold more

484
00:18:51,724 --> 00:18:53,164
comfortable with infidelity-

485
00:18:53,494 --> 00:18:53,694
Yeah

486
00:18:53,694 --> 00:18:55,354
…
than we are with ethical non-monogamy.

487
00:18:55,354 --> 00:18:55,384
It's

488
00:18:55,394 --> 00:18:56,244
mind-blowing.

489
00:18:56,304 --> 00:18:57,134
Even now.

490
00:18:57,144 --> 00:18:57,184
Oh, my God.

491
00:18:57,184 --> 00:19:00,374
Like, I'll get hit up, and I'm
like, "Does your wife know?" No."

492
00:19:00,414 --> 00:19:01,714
"Oh, yeah, no, I don't do that."

493
00:19:02,474 --> 00:19:03,844
That's unethical.

494
00:19:04,614 --> 00:19:04,874
Yeah.

495
00:19:05,004 --> 00:19:05,444
Come on, guys.

496
00:19:05,444 --> 00:19:06,024
Right.

497
00:19:06,204 --> 00:19:11,134
Now, do you see more, women
that come to you, or are they

498
00:19:11,134 --> 00:19:13,664
couples, or is it mainly men?

499
00:19:13,934 --> 00:19:19,144
I feel like more women would be, because
we feel like we kinda hold that guilt.

500
00:19:19,994 --> 00:19:22,764
I feel like we hold the
guilt more than a male does.

501
00:19:22,814 --> 00:19:24,054
I remember- Yeah, I don't have

502
00:19:24,054 --> 00:19:24,444
any guilt about

503
00:19:24,444 --> 00:19:27,304
it … I remember when we first became s-

504
00:19:28,024 --> 00:19:29,674
ethical non-monogamists … yeah,
it was maybe our second

505
00:19:29,674 --> 00:19:30,414
experience, something like

506
00:19:30,784 --> 00:19:30,844
that.

507
00:19:30,874 --> 00:19:31,544
Yeah, we had little-

508
00:19:31,564 --> 00:19:32,014
It was like the next day

509
00:19:32,154 --> 00:19:33,834
…
yeah, we had little ones, right?

510
00:19:33,834 --> 00:19:35,394
So all of our kids were the same age.

511
00:19:35,394 --> 00:19:37,604
We had like two four-year-olds
and two toddlers.

512
00:19:38,094 --> 00:19:41,444
And we started taking them to church,
because I was like, "We should

513
00:19:41,444 --> 00:19:43,234
really get involved in something."

514
00:19:43,234 --> 00:19:46,984
We were in the choir, so we decided,
"Okay, let's start church." And so

515
00:19:46,994 --> 00:19:50,604
we started doing that, and I was
getting… I've never been really

516
00:19:50,604 --> 00:19:52,974
religious, but I was getting there.

517
00:19:53,354 --> 00:19:59,694
And then I remember feeling such
guilt for having had a play… We had

518
00:19:59,694 --> 00:20:03,334
a play session with another couple,
and I remember feeling such guilt

519
00:20:03,334 --> 00:20:07,774
that I went h- when we got home, I
was like, "This is morally wrong."

520
00:20:07,774 --> 00:20:08,404
She was balling.

521
00:20:08,404 --> 00:20:09,354
Like, "This is not right." Yeah.

522
00:20:09,354 --> 00:20:10,644
Like, "I'm gonna go to hell.

523
00:20:11,154 --> 00:20:14,924
I'm raising kids, and my kids are
gonna… Like, what if they all find out?

524
00:20:14,924 --> 00:20:20,224
Like, what's gonna happen?" And I think
we had like a really deep conversation,

525
00:20:20,894 --> 00:20:25,354
and then I was like, "Yeah, you know,
I'm tired of kinda being in the closet.

526
00:20:25,464 --> 00:20:27,804
I'm tired of, of hiding everything."

527
00:20:28,264 --> 00:20:29,874
Yeah, she went from one
extreme to the next … I went

528
00:20:29,934 --> 00:20:30,859
from one extreme to the next.

529
00:20:30,859 --> 00:20:32,114
And then she ended up just
coming out completely.

530
00:20:32,114 --> 00:20:32,264
We came

531
00:20:32,264 --> 00:20:33,534
out poly at that time.

532
00:20:33,534 --> 00:20:34,074
Yeah.

533
00:20:34,074 --> 00:20:35,314
Uh- I told my kids

534
00:20:35,434 --> 00:20:36,647
…
this was a while back, but Yeah.

535
00:20:36,647 --> 00:20:37,014
We… And, and-

536
00:20:37,094 --> 00:20:37,784
And so-

537
00:20:37,804 --> 00:20:37,824
Yeah

538
00:20:38,084 --> 00:20:41,724
…
I wonder, is it more women that
you see this happen to, where they

539
00:20:41,724 --> 00:20:44,754
feel like they really need a you
had that conversation with you

540
00:20:45,254 --> 00:20:47,814
Yeah, I mean, there are definitely
themes that are gendered.

541
00:20:47,824 --> 00:20:50,944
We're socialized very differently,
right- Mm-hmm … depending on whether

542
00:20:50,944 --> 00:20:52,964
or not we have a penis or a vagina.

543
00:20:52,964 --> 00:20:53,264
Yeah.

544
00:20:53,764 --> 00:20:56,814
I mean, from the clothes they put
us in, right, as babies- Yeah,

545
00:20:56,814 --> 00:20:59,124
that's true … and stuff to
mark, you know, these differences.

546
00:20:59,154 --> 00:20:59,384
But-

547
00:20:59,394 --> 00:21:00,074
The colors

548
00:21:00,104 --> 00:21:03,264
…
but the shame, like really,
I think it's probably more

549
00:21:03,264 --> 00:21:06,324
personality than gender necessarily.

550
00:21:06,334 --> 00:21:06,484
Oh, okay.

551
00:21:06,484 --> 00:21:11,474
Like, I think people who trend to be
more perfectionistic, who trend to be

552
00:21:11,474 --> 00:21:17,494
more anxious prone, who trend to be
more people pleasers, those folks are

553
00:21:17,504 --> 00:21:19,484
probably gonna stru- struggle more-

554
00:21:19,754 --> 00:21:19,944
Mm-hmm

555
00:21:19,944 --> 00:21:24,084
…
with feelings of guilt and shame than
maybe people who are kinda like, fuck it.

556
00:21:24,944 --> 00:21:25,524
I'm outta here." Yeah.

557
00:21:25,524 --> 00:21:26,664
Yeah.

558
00:21:26,664 --> 00:21:28,234
You know, kind of the, the eye rolls.

559
00:21:28,234 --> 00:21:32,084
And I remember even as a leader
in church, looking at all the

560
00:21:32,084 --> 00:21:35,554
adolescents in these big, like,
meetings that we would have that, that

561
00:21:35,554 --> 00:21:37,274
are about sexual standards, right?

562
00:21:37,274 --> 00:21:40,194
So it's the big meeting, you know-
Okay … for all the teenagers.

563
00:21:40,194 --> 00:21:40,534
Yeah.

564
00:21:40,564 --> 00:21:43,864
And I'd be looking at all of them
as they're listening to the leaders,

565
00:21:44,134 --> 00:21:48,294
and some of them, you can just
see them, they're taking notes.

566
00:21:48,774 --> 00:21:52,014
They're like, their eyes are
all kinda worried and scared.

567
00:21:52,114 --> 00:21:54,944
You know, they're like, you know,
they're ta- And then others are on

568
00:21:54,944 --> 00:21:57,674
their phones or eye-rolling, you know.

569
00:21:57,674 --> 00:21:57,684
Yeah.

570
00:21:57,684 --> 00:22:00,934
They're like, "These people are
full of, you know, ridiculousness."

571
00:22:00,934 --> 00:22:01,284
Yeah.

572
00:22:01,744 --> 00:22:03,684
Those kids are usually
gonna be the healthier ones.

573
00:22:04,564 --> 00:22:05,344
I was gonna say,

574
00:22:05,424 --> 00:22:05,694
yeah.

575
00:22:05,694 --> 00:22:05,709
Yeah.

576
00:22:05,709 --> 00:22:09,704
Than the ones who- Yeah … are so
wanting to do it all right, you know?

577
00:22:09,714 --> 00:22:09,984
Yeah.

578
00:22:10,334 --> 00:22:12,554
Well, you know, I was- But I do think-
I was in the, the- Oh, go ahead.

579
00:22:12,664 --> 00:22:16,284
Yeah … well, I was in church as
a youth, and I was involved in the

580
00:22:16,284 --> 00:22:20,094
choir and that sort of thing, and,
and we were high school kids, and if

581
00:22:20,094 --> 00:22:23,734
there was anything that we knew was
that the high school girls at, that

582
00:22:23,734 --> 00:22:26,224
were involved in church were easy.

583
00:22:26,224 --> 00:22:26,814
Easy.

584
00:22:26,814 --> 00:22:27,424
They were easy.

585
00:22:27,424 --> 00:22:27,444
You know?

586
00:22:27,444 --> 00:22:27,914
They were the

587
00:22:27,914 --> 00:22:28,154
easy ones.

588
00:22:28,154 --> 00:22:28,634
Yeah, I mean, I-

589
00:22:28,634 --> 00:22:28,994
Yeah

590
00:22:29,024 --> 00:22:31,624
…
there was a lot of fooling around
that was going on back then.

591
00:22:31,624 --> 00:22:31,814
Yeah,

592
00:22:31,864 --> 00:22:32,214
yeah.

593
00:22:32,244 --> 00:22:32,524
You know?

594
00:22:32,524 --> 00:22:32,694
And-

595
00:22:32,844 --> 00:22:33,064
Yeah

596
00:22:33,104 --> 00:22:37,184
…
um, it, that was always kinda the talk
was, "Well, if y- if she's heavy into

597
00:22:37,184 --> 00:22:41,964
church, forget it." Like, that's…
And that's what we were always told.

598
00:22:42,254 --> 00:22:44,444
Now obviously that's a dramaticism.

599
00:22:44,444 --> 00:22:45,524
A stereotype, right?

600
00:22:45,524 --> 00:22:46,094
Like it's, yeah- Yeah, sure.

601
00:22:46,094 --> 00:22:48,374
Mm-hmm … it's, it's really
not the, I'm sure it's not the

602
00:22:48,374 --> 00:22:50,724
case, but, uh, I've seen it.

603
00:22:50,884 --> 00:22:50,924
You know?

604
00:22:51,424 --> 00:22:54,674
Well, I think church girls
usually, one, are under-prepared

605
00:22:54,674 --> 00:22:56,454
to say no or to have boundaries.

606
00:22:56,464 --> 00:22:58,064
Mm. And so that sometimes-
Oh, that is so true

607
00:22:58,064 --> 00:22:58,424
is the

608
00:22:58,924 --> 00:22:58,974
reason.

609
00:22:59,024 --> 00:22:59,264
That makes sense.

610
00:22:59,324 --> 00:23:03,684
And other times church girls have
gotten really good at the loophole game.

611
00:23:03,714 --> 00:23:09,154
Like, "I will stay officially a virgin,
but I will give you oral or anal or,

612
00:23:09,164 --> 00:23:12,514
you know- Ah … do all kinds of other
things, but I can still s- feel good

613
00:23:12,514 --> 00:23:16,524
because I'm-" officially a virgin, however
we conceptualize that as a culture.

614
00:23:16,524 --> 00:23:16,954
Yeah.

615
00:23:17,284 --> 00:23:17,504
Right?

616
00:23:17,504 --> 00:23:17,784
Yeah.

617
00:23:17,784 --> 00:23:21,044
And so yeah, there's different
reasons why that may be the case.

618
00:23:21,084 --> 00:23:26,544
I don't know that we have any clear
statistics necessarily about religious

619
00:23:26,544 --> 00:23:31,514
adolescents being more or less sexually
active than non-religious kids.

620
00:23:31,544 --> 00:23:34,334
But yeah, it's, it's, it's
always super interesting.

621
00:23:34,384 --> 00:23:37,954
And g- and I guess circling back to
the mom guilt thing, that is a s- you

622
00:23:37,954 --> 00:23:42,774
know, we are socialized as an overall
culture that once you're a mom, you

623
00:23:42,774 --> 00:23:45,964
kind of lose your erotic component.

624
00:23:45,974 --> 00:23:45,984
Mm,

625
00:23:46,024 --> 00:23:51,524
Like, I'll never forget when Demi Moore,
right, um, was on the, the magazine-

626
00:23:52,054 --> 00:23:52,514
Was it Ti- Time or People?

627
00:23:52,524 --> 00:23:52,554
Mm-hmm.

628
00:23:52,554 --> 00:23:53,484
Something like… I think
it was People, yeah.

629
00:23:53,514 --> 00:23:54,384
She was naked.

630
00:23:54,654 --> 00:23:55,814
And she was pregnant.

631
00:23:55,874 --> 00:23:56,254
Right.

632
00:23:56,464 --> 00:24:00,174
And it was like the Madonna whore complex
had come to the United States, you know?

633
00:24:00,574 --> 00:24:02,794
It's like everybody had a fit.

634
00:24:03,144 --> 00:24:03,194
Yeah, no.

635
00:24:03,204 --> 00:24:06,244
You're sexualizing your
unborn child, right?

636
00:24:06,244 --> 00:24:12,494
It's like once you become a mother, we
are considered, in some ways, asexual.

637
00:24:12,544 --> 00:24:13,014
You know?

638
00:24:13,014 --> 00:24:15,074
It's like- Mm-hmm … you
now are responsible.

639
00:24:15,074 --> 00:24:18,754
You are now supposed to
dress appropriately and teach

640
00:24:18,754 --> 00:24:20,714
your children and be moral.

641
00:24:21,154 --> 00:24:24,344
Whereas, you know, the woman who
doesn't have children, she can

642
00:24:24,344 --> 00:24:28,984
be more sexy or dress sexy, and
that's not seen as such a big deal.

643
00:24:28,994 --> 00:24:34,684
So I do think there are differences
between the messages women get- Mm-hmm

644
00:24:34,684 --> 00:24:39,164
… when they become parents versus the
messages men get when they become parents.

645
00:24:39,824 --> 00:24:40,714
That's interesting.

646
00:24:40,724 --> 00:24:41,644
That's very-- Yeah.

647
00:24:41,644 --> 00:24:45,614
Um, y- you know, when towards
the end of your story, you had,

648
00:24:45,724 --> 00:24:48,714
had mentioned something that I,
I kinda wanted to touch up on.

649
00:24:49,054 --> 00:24:53,214
You said that a lot of people
that you see who have… or, are

650
00:24:53,214 --> 00:24:58,074
leaving the religion have expressed
interest in, in non-monogamy.

651
00:24:58,384 --> 00:25:01,924
And I, you know, what
we know is what we hear.

652
00:25:01,934 --> 00:25:05,404
You know, we- we've talked to a lot of
people in the years that we've been in

653
00:25:05,404 --> 00:25:09,314
this and, and then the s- the television
show, you know, it's, it's all over.

654
00:25:09,614 --> 00:25:12,934
I'm, I'm kinda curious, why is that?

655
00:25:12,954 --> 00:25:14,814
Can you connect those dots for us?

656
00:25:15,314 --> 00:25:15,544
Yeah.

657
00:25:15,544 --> 00:25:18,484
A- and again, I'm gonna
speak in generalities.

658
00:25:18,484 --> 00:25:20,094
It's not gonna apply to everybody.

659
00:25:20,094 --> 00:25:24,694
But I do think a lot of people who
come out of high-demand religions,

660
00:25:25,044 --> 00:25:30,694
purity culture especially if they
were the good kids, more than likely

661
00:25:31,244 --> 00:25:34,414
they didn't have a lot of sexual
exploration prior to marriage.

662
00:25:34,494 --> 00:25:34,744
Oh.

663
00:25:34,794 --> 00:25:38,044
So they may have been with
one person their whole life.

664
00:25:38,704 --> 00:25:43,134
They may feel now like they were
sold a bill of goods, right?

665
00:25:43,144 --> 00:25:48,364
And that they were shamed and that their
development was arrested, which is true.

666
00:25:48,894 --> 00:25:50,944
And so they're feeling
a lot of FOMO, right?

667
00:25:50,944 --> 00:25:55,214
Like a lot of missing out, a lot
of like unfairness about that.

668
00:25:55,754 --> 00:26:01,204
Sometimes due to those issues, they
may have married somebody that wasn't

669
00:26:01,264 --> 00:26:03,884
super compatible in their sexual lives.

670
00:26:03,954 --> 00:26:04,184
Mm-hmm.

671
00:26:04,184 --> 00:26:04,404
Mm-hmm.

672
00:26:04,554 --> 00:26:06,974
'
Cause you're not really
allowed to test the waters.

673
00:26:07,274 --> 00:26:10,734
And we're kinda promised that as long
as you're righteous and you get married

674
00:26:10,744 --> 00:26:13,254
and you stay a virgin, you'll be fine.

675
00:26:13,264 --> 00:26:15,314
Well, that's not what makes sex fine.

676
00:26:15,364 --> 00:26:18,204
You know, marriage isn't
what makes sex good or fine.

677
00:26:18,724 --> 00:26:22,284
And you don't have people with a lot
of comprehensive sexual education going

678
00:26:22,284 --> 00:26:26,154
into these relationships, and they're
typically getting married pretty young,

679
00:26:26,164 --> 00:26:30,284
like- … 19 to 22 in these more re-
religious communities because they're

680
00:26:30,284 --> 00:26:32,554
avoiding having sex before marriage.

681
00:26:32,784 --> 00:26:32,994
Yeah.

682
00:26:32,994 --> 00:26:37,324
And so you can see that, you know,
you're now you're 40, you're 50, you

683
00:26:37,324 --> 00:26:38,894
know, your kids are a little bit older.

684
00:26:39,334 --> 00:26:41,544
You're coming out of this religious haze.

685
00:26:41,564 --> 00:26:42,874
You're super pissed.

686
00:26:42,884 --> 00:26:49,234
You're feeling super, like robbed from
a lot of normal human experiences and

687
00:26:49,956 --> 00:26:53,946
Whether you're happy or not in your
current sex life, you might still want

688
00:26:53,956 --> 00:26:55,756
to experience something different.

689
00:26:56,526 --> 00:27:00,626
Plus, I think for a lot of the women
it's kind of a fuck you to patriarchy.

690
00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:05,076
It's like I don't want to be
beholden to one man or one authority.

691
00:27:05,706 --> 00:27:07,806
I want to express my sexuality.

692
00:27:07,806 --> 00:27:11,206
I don't want to feel owned
or like I belong to somebody,

693
00:27:11,206 --> 00:27:12,926
like territory, you know?

694
00:27:13,456 --> 00:27:17,456
And I think for a lot of the men
who were shamed about masturbation,

695
00:27:17,466 --> 00:27:21,496
about pornography, about having
fantasies, they're like, "I'm

696
00:27:21,496 --> 00:27:23,136
so tired of just being shamed.

697
00:27:23,146 --> 00:27:24,916
Like just, can I just be?

698
00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:28,346
Do I have to feel like a horrible,
perverse person that objectifies

699
00:27:29,056 --> 00:27:32,396
women and is one step away from a
pedophile because I like to look

700
00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:33,556
at porn every now and then," right?

701
00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:38,386
Which are, were the messages we really
received, that this was so dangerous.

702
00:27:38,466 --> 00:27:42,566
And so they're fed up, and they're
going into their second adolescence,

703
00:27:42,566 --> 00:27:44,086
which is what we call midlife.

704
00:27:44,816 --> 00:27:44,916
Yeah.

705
00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:50,046
Which is already a developmental
stage where we want to explore

706
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:53,946
and not fall into the same old
patterns we were in in our 30s.

707
00:27:54,046 --> 00:27:57,566
Usually our- Oh, yeah … kids are
older by this time, so… And we're

708
00:27:57,566 --> 00:28:01,296
kinda getting that, that knowledge
that we only have so much time left.

709
00:28:01,366 --> 00:28:01,396
Mm-hmm.

710
00:28:01,426 --> 00:28:05,736
And so, and by the time we're
in our 70s and 80s, it gets a

711
00:28:05,736 --> 00:28:06,916
little harder to get around.

712
00:28:06,916 --> 00:28:11,646
So our 50s and 60s is kinda like
our last chance to live the things

713
00:28:11,646 --> 00:28:13,706
we feel like we never got to live.

714
00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:18,896
Okay, real quick before we get back
into it, we gotta talk about sdc.com

715
00:28:19,226 --> 00:28:19,746
Oh, yes.

716
00:28:19,846 --> 00:28:23,106
Okay, so if you don't know SDC,
it's basically the largest online

717
00:28:23,106 --> 00:28:24,706
community for open-minded adults

718
00:28:24,906 --> 00:28:29,765
Which if you're listening to this show
right now, I feel like you probably

719
00:28:29,766 --> 00:28:31,436
already know if that's your scene.

720
00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:32,076
Yeah.

721
00:28:32,095 --> 00:28:34,015
It's your people all in one place.

722
00:28:34,355 --> 00:28:36,595
Just make a profile and go explore

723
00:28:36,835 --> 00:28:40,756
No weirdness, no judgment, just
a ton of like-minded humans

724
00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:42,566
living their lives, just like us.

725
00:28:42,745 --> 00:28:44,535
Honestly, it's kinda
fun just to poke around

726
00:28:44,615 --> 00:28:45,555
Yeah, it really is.

727
00:28:45,755 --> 00:28:47,985
Go sign up at sdc.com.

728
00:28:48,195 --> 00:28:49,625
Use code 38236.

729
00:28:49,716 --> 00:28:52,325
Link's in the show notes.

730
00:28:52,365 --> 00:28:54,056
Okay, now back to what we were saying.

731
00:28:54,236 --> 00:28:54,656
Yes

732
00:28:55,454 --> 00:28:59,634
So yeah, there's like the openness
of emerging adulthood that

733
00:29:00,134 --> 00:29:05,454
The nesting of the 30s, which is when most
people have their children, the openness

734
00:29:05,454 --> 00:29:11,274
again in mid-40s to I would say mid-60s,
and then the closing again in elderly

735
00:29:11,274 --> 00:29:17,944
years when we want companionship, care,
like stability to basically end our lives

736
00:29:18,444 --> 00:29:18,534
Wow.

737
00:29:18,564 --> 00:29:18,834
Yeah.

738
00:29:18,834 --> 00:29:25,334
You know, I, I can't picture being
actively non-monogamous when I'm elderly

739
00:29:25,334 --> 00:29:27,254
and, and, and in close to my deathbed.

740
00:29:27,544 --> 00:29:32,334
But, you know, she made it real
clear that w- when she goes, I go.

741
00:29:32,834 --> 00:29:34,564
So- … there's no- We're

742
00:29:34,564 --> 00:29:35,384
dying together.

743
00:29:35,394 --> 00:29:38,314
There's no… She said "I don't even
wanna put the dog through that." Like,

744
00:29:38,364 --> 00:29:40,864
I wouldn't wanna put another partner
in and be like, "Hey, you know, I,

745
00:29:40,914 --> 00:29:42,264
sorry, I gotta go with her now."

746
00:29:42,364 --> 00:29:43,824
Like, she's dying, so I'm gonna die now.

747
00:29:43,824 --> 00:29:44,204
That's right.

748
00:29:44,664 --> 00:29:45,154
Okay.

749
00:29:45,164 --> 00:29:47,449
Uh, this- So you're Thelma
and Louising this, right?

750
00:29:47,449 --> 00:29:47,494
That's

751
00:29:47,494 --> 00:29:47,674
right.

752
00:29:47,714 --> 00:29:47,754
That's-

753
00:29:47,754 --> 00:29:48,234
You're like, you're getting into

754
00:29:48,834 --> 00:29:51,024
a you're getting in the car and just- She
basically said that I'm, I'm getting in

755
00:29:51,024 --> 00:29:54,024
the coffin with her- Yeah … apparently,
and then we're just gonna go together.

756
00:29:54,164 --> 00:29:54,414
Yeah.

757
00:29:54,474 --> 00:29:56,494
So that's, I mean, that's
depressing for me, but I'm not

758
00:29:56,494 --> 00:29:57,944
thinking about that right now.

759
00:29:57,964 --> 00:29:58,734
Uh, right now- And

760
00:29:58,734 --> 00:30:00,304
I already told the kids, so they're good.

761
00:30:00,354 --> 00:30:04,044
Right now, uh- … right now she lets me
have sex with other, uh, women, and so

762
00:30:04,044 --> 00:30:06,904
I just, I'm just like, "Okay. I'll, I'll
cross that bridge when we get there."

763
00:30:06,904 --> 00:30:07,144
There

764
00:30:07,474 --> 00:30:07,824
you go.

765
00:30:07,854 --> 00:30:08,254
Um-

766
00:30:08,354 --> 00:30:08,654
Yes

767
00:30:08,694 --> 00:30:13,274
…
now, you know, I, I am curious about
something that you know, I, I've

768
00:30:13,274 --> 00:30:16,324
always personally wondered about
from… You know, 'cause I, I have

769
00:30:16,324 --> 00:30:19,484
my experiences, uh, with religion.

770
00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:22,134
Now, I, I am a very anxious person.

771
00:30:22,184 --> 00:30:23,934
I am a people pleaser, you know.

772
00:30:23,944 --> 00:30:26,844
I, I was, I, I was checking boxes
while you were making those lists.

773
00:30:27,464 --> 00:30:33,094
But I don't, I don't have shame anymore,
and there was… I, I did for a long time.

774
00:30:33,414 --> 00:30:37,494
And I am, uh, one of those people
that I, I really look inward, uh,

775
00:30:37,534 --> 00:30:39,074
often, and I always have been.

776
00:30:39,404 --> 00:30:44,334
And so I felt shame for so many, so
much of my high school years, my college

777
00:30:44,334 --> 00:30:47,624
years well into my first marriage.

778
00:30:48,014 --> 00:30:50,424
And I was with my first
wife for seven years.

779
00:30:50,424 --> 00:30:54,804
Well, when I, when I got out of
that marriage is around the time

780
00:30:54,804 --> 00:30:57,474
that Pris and I started dating,
maybe a month later or so.

781
00:30:57,474 --> 00:30:59,894
Like, it was very quick from
one marriage to the other.

782
00:31:00,314 --> 00:31:05,254
And I made it real clear that I
did not want to pursue another

783
00:31:05,254 --> 00:31:10,014
relationship like what I had, which
was a very prudish relationship.

784
00:31:10,024 --> 00:31:14,374
We had sex maybe twice in seven years,
and both of those produced a child.

785
00:31:14,854 --> 00:31:15,344
Um- Wow.

786
00:31:15,354 --> 00:31:21,444
Mm-hmm … and, and so sex was not really
celebrated as a, a fun and enjoyable

787
00:31:21,454 --> 00:31:23,514
thing, which I very much viewed it.

788
00:31:23,964 --> 00:31:27,544
Um- Right … so I just kicked the
masturbation off into high gear and, and,

789
00:31:27,544 --> 00:31:30,924
and did my thing, and I, I got through
my seven years, you know what I mean?

790
00:31:31,304 --> 00:31:32,904
Uh, like somebody who was in prison.

791
00:31:33,534 --> 00:31:39,054
Um, but when I got with Pris and we
initially started talking about, what we

792
00:31:39,054 --> 00:31:42,914
wanted out of the relationship, I said,
you know… The first thing out of her

793
00:31:42,914 --> 00:31:47,984
mouth was You're not one of those guys
who wants sex all the time, are you?

794
00:31:48,504 --> 00:31:49,167
I just didn't- And

795
00:31:49,167 --> 00:31:50,644
she had such negativity about it

796
00:31:50,644 --> 00:31:51,634
I did not.

797
00:31:51,674 --> 00:31:54,044
And it wasn't the way I
was raised or anything.

798
00:31:54,074 --> 00:31:58,234
I just, the men that I was with I
was married to two different men,

799
00:31:58,584 --> 00:32:01,174
and the sex with them was okay.

800
00:32:01,204 --> 00:32:04,794
Like, I wasn't, I'm not a
very hyper-sexual person.

801
00:32:05,154 --> 00:32:10,284
I masturbated a lot, but then
that was even sh- my ex would

802
00:32:10,284 --> 00:32:12,344
shame me for that, you know?

803
00:32:12,344 --> 00:32:16,204
So then I just decided not
to… I just, I don't know.

804
00:32:16,254 --> 00:32:19,504
I didn't have that drive,
and I really didn't get my

805
00:32:19,504 --> 00:32:23,304
drive until, like, menopause.

806
00:32:23,614 --> 00:32:23,874
Really.

807
00:32:23,874 --> 00:32:24,734
Oh, well, I don't know.

808
00:32:24,734 --> 00:32:25,864
I mean, and we've always been,
we've always- I mean, you and

809
00:32:25,864 --> 00:32:26,494
I have-

810
00:32:26,514 --> 00:32:28,384
Yeah … really gone at it … we've
always been good, but I meant, like,

811
00:32:28,384 --> 00:32:30,684
my, like a really good sexual drive.

812
00:32:30,714 --> 00:32:32,044
I think I'm in that now.

813
00:32:32,054 --> 00:32:32,074
So

814
00:32:32,264 --> 00:32:33,704
And, you know, I made
it real clear to her.

815
00:32:33,704 --> 00:32:37,634
I said, "Y- I am one of those people
who- Yeah … love sex all the time,

816
00:32:37,654 --> 00:32:41,474
and if that's an issue for you, then
I don't think that this is gonna

817
00:32:41,474 --> 00:32:44,394
work," 'cause I just came out of
a, a marriage that was like that.

818
00:32:44,394 --> 00:32:44,794
Mm-hmm.

819
00:32:44,794 --> 00:32:49,154
And if having sex every single
day is not something that you're

820
00:32:49,154 --> 00:32:50,694
into, then this may not work.

821
00:32:50,974 --> 00:32:53,104
And so that was something
that she overlooked.

822
00:32:53,584 --> 00:32:56,244
And then she had sex with me and
forget it, then she became, like,

823
00:32:56,254 --> 00:33:01,024
this- … total, uh, hot, you
know… I have a very high sex drive.

824
00:33:01,024 --> 00:33:03,854
She manages to- Yeah … to keep
up with me, which is very nice.

825
00:33:03,854 --> 00:33:04,194
Mm-hmm.

826
00:33:04,274 --> 00:33:11,444
And so that, all of that to say that that
initial, "You're not one of those guys

827
00:33:11,444 --> 00:33:13,454
who likes to have sex a lot, are you?"

828
00:33:13,724 --> 00:33:17,474
That feeling that I had when I had
to answer that was I felt "Shit,

829
00:33:17,554 --> 00:33:19,074
this is not gonna go well for me."

830
00:33:19,134 --> 00:33:19,464
Yeah.

831
00:33:19,514 --> 00:33:24,644
So when it comes to shame in,
i- as it comes to people who are

832
00:33:24,644 --> 00:33:28,764
in the religion, is this pretty
much like everybody that you see?

833
00:33:28,764 --> 00:33:30,874
Like, they're dealing
with… I, I mean, it's…

834
00:33:31,204 --> 00:33:34,084
I would wonder, because that just
seems like a prominent thing.

835
00:33:34,584 --> 00:33:35,164
Yeah.

836
00:33:35,164 --> 00:33:40,534
I, I mean, I think sexual shame is a
pretty common human experience, right?

837
00:33:40,554 --> 00:33:44,104
Mm. I mean, I'm never comfortable saying
everyone, but I'm almost comfortable

838
00:33:44,104 --> 00:33:48,854
saying everyone, unless you're
like a sociopath or something Yeah.

839
00:33:49,004 --> 00:33:52,244
… probably has a sexual
shame story, you know?

840
00:33:52,294 --> 00:33:54,994
Um, and it's not just even religious.

841
00:33:55,014 --> 00:33:56,874
It's everything from how we look.

842
00:33:56,874 --> 00:33:59,404
I mean, just think of all the
media messages we get about-

843
00:33:59,404 --> 00:33:59,634
Mm. Mm-hmm

844
00:33:59,934 --> 00:34:06,584
…
how you're supposed to look sexual or act
sexual or be sexual, um, whether or not

845
00:34:06,584 --> 00:34:09,844
you're queer at all, you know, at all.

846
00:34:09,914 --> 00:34:13,554
You know, we get super big downloads
about how you're supposed to be

847
00:34:13,554 --> 00:34:15,434
hetero- heterosexual, you know?

848
00:34:15,434 --> 00:34:19,894
And so, yes, I think the shame runs
deep for a lot of different reasons,

849
00:34:20,174 --> 00:34:25,244
and religion has a lot of those reasons
wrapped up in it as well, you know,

850
00:34:25,244 --> 00:34:27,844
with the value of you as a human
being depending on- Mm-hmm … what's

851
00:34:27,874 --> 00:34:29,474
happened to your genitals, right?

852
00:34:29,484 --> 00:34:30,724
Is pretty problematic.

853
00:34:31,604 --> 00:34:37,024
So I think even to your point, you
know, when you're telling your story,

854
00:34:37,024 --> 00:34:40,994
what's coming up for me is that, like,
there's so much yes ands here, you know?

855
00:34:40,994 --> 00:34:46,364
I think in general, going back to
gender socialization- Mm … if you're

856
00:34:46,364 --> 00:34:51,554
a woman, you are taught that men
are out to get you sexually, right?

857
00:34:51,574 --> 00:34:57,164
And so if a- Yes … man, if all he
wants is to have sex with you it's about

858
00:34:57,174 --> 00:35:02,134
now I'm being objectified, used, and,
you know, he's entitled to my body.

859
00:35:02,294 --> 00:35:06,294
Which right off the bat, if that's how
you're approaching sex as a woman, you're

860
00:35:06,294 --> 00:35:08,644
more than likely gonna have desire issues.

861
00:35:08,764 --> 00:35:13,124
'
Cause desire isn't about pleasure or
surrender or about your own drive.

862
00:35:13,124 --> 00:35:16,774
It's all about controlling why
is this other person wanting

863
00:35:16,774 --> 00:35:19,294
access to my body, right?

864
00:35:19,294 --> 00:35:21,614
So that, that's very damaging.

865
00:35:22,044 --> 00:35:26,134
And then, um, men and high-drive
people, 'cause the women who are high

866
00:35:26,144 --> 00:35:30,014
drive, they're like, "Boy, I must
be really fucked up," 'cause they're

867
00:35:30,014 --> 00:35:31,724
just talking to the men about this.

868
00:35:32,534 --> 00:35:36,684
So they're obviously the problem, but
I'm a problem too, but they're not

869
00:35:36,684 --> 00:35:38,724
even talking to my group about this.

870
00:35:39,114 --> 00:35:39,274
Yeah.

871
00:35:39,294 --> 00:35:41,224
So I must be really sick.

872
00:35:41,234 --> 00:35:44,254
And we actually had a word for
this back in the day, right?

873
00:35:44,264 --> 00:35:46,434
It was, um… Oh, what's the word?

874
00:35:46,934 --> 00:35:48,224
Am I gonna remember it now?

875
00:35:48,724 --> 00:35:52,024
The word where women who
were very high drive.

876
00:35:52,324 --> 00:35:54,904
It's, um… Gosh, I can't
believe I can't think of it.

877
00:35:54,994 --> 00:35:57,194
I'm gonna blame my perimenopausal
brain on this, but-

878
00:35:57,194 --> 00:35:57,604
There you go.

879
00:35:58,104 --> 00:36:00,764
It's basically like you're
a nymph- the nymphomaniac.

880
00:36:00,854 --> 00:36:01,394
Oh, okay.

881
00:36:01,404 --> 00:36:01,424
Yeah.

882
00:36:01,424 --> 00:36:01,604
Nymphomania.

883
00:36:02,594 --> 00:36:04,274
Do you think men were
diagnosed as nymphomaniacs?

884
00:36:04,284 --> 00:36:04,494
Oh, no.

885
00:36:04,494 --> 00:36:05,274
No.

886
00:36:05,364 --> 00:36:05,794
No,

887
00:36:05,794 --> 00:36:06,734
it was just women.

888
00:36:06,734 --> 00:36:07,354
Women were.

889
00:36:07,364 --> 00:36:07,794
Yeah.

890
00:36:07,854 --> 00:36:08,314
Right?

891
00:36:08,344 --> 00:36:08,824
Yeah.

892
00:36:08,874 --> 00:36:12,394
And so men get this download that,
well, of course you're sexual.

893
00:36:12,734 --> 00:36:15,214
You know, women are getting the
download of like, "You're not sexual,

894
00:36:15,214 --> 00:36:19,524
you're, you're sexually wanted."
Men are like- Mm … "You're sexual.

895
00:36:19,884 --> 00:36:22,304
Just make sure you're
nice about it," right?

896
00:36:22,454 --> 00:36:24,614
At least that's a more modern
message that we're getting.

897
00:36:24,704 --> 00:36:24,874
Yeah.

898
00:36:25,454 --> 00:36:27,934
Back in the day, you could
just own a wife, you know?

899
00:36:27,934 --> 00:36:28,304
Yeah.

900
00:36:28,494 --> 00:36:30,244
Then you didn't, nobody cared
if you were nice about it.

901
00:36:30,814 --> 00:36:36,894
But so this idea, this question, like
how important is sex to you, especially

902
00:36:36,894 --> 00:36:43,414
as we're dating and getting to know each
other, is full of laden messages, right?

903
00:36:43,414 --> 00:36:44,654
Of what does it mean?

904
00:36:44,954 --> 00:36:48,534
What does, what, and also the
acknowledgement too that our drives

905
00:36:48,534 --> 00:36:50,654
don't stay the same as human beings.

906
00:36:50,714 --> 00:36:51,084
Yeah.

907
00:36:51,234 --> 00:36:52,764
You can start off high drive.

908
00:36:53,004 --> 00:36:56,354
Have a few health issues along
the way, age, whatever things,

909
00:36:57,214 --> 00:36:58,354
and now you're low drive.

910
00:36:58,994 --> 00:37:00,114
Or like you, Pris, right?

911
00:37:00,114 --> 00:37:02,334
You're, you kinda start out low
drive, and then you hit- Yeah

912
00:37:02,384 --> 00:37:04,664
some hormonal shifts or some
freedom or some reframes,

913
00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:05,844
and now you're higher drive.

914
00:37:05,854 --> 00:37:06,354
That's it.

915
00:37:06,704 --> 00:37:06,944
I think it was a podcast.

916
00:37:06,944 --> 00:37:10,324
So there's no like… Yeah, there's
no guarantee that we're gonna

917
00:37:10,334 --> 00:37:13,204
stay on the same drive, boat.

918
00:37:13,654 --> 00:37:13,904
Yeah.

919
00:37:13,904 --> 00:37:18,574
And I think what women are saying,
when they're asking that is- Are you

920
00:37:18,584 --> 00:37:21,074
going to feel entitled to my body?

921
00:37:21,394 --> 00:37:24,934
Is this relationship gonna
center your sexuality over mine?

922
00:37:25,044 --> 00:37:27,374
And that is a real problem we have, right?

923
00:37:27,374 --> 00:37:33,334
Not because men are awful people and, um,
but it's just how we're socialized, right?

924
00:37:33,344 --> 00:37:37,054
That I think women are socialized
more to accommodate and to be nice

925
00:37:37,054 --> 00:37:42,934
and to be kind, and men are socialized
to be honest and get what they want.

926
00:37:42,934 --> 00:37:45,464
And so they think they're coming
to a negotiation table that a

927
00:37:45,464 --> 00:37:48,994
woman isn't quite coming to in
the same way a man is coming to.

928
00:37:49,604 --> 00:37:54,724
And we still have a lot of
male-centric sexuality happening.

929
00:37:54,964 --> 00:37:55,314
Yeah.

930
00:37:55,324 --> 00:37:57,304
Um, we still have an orgasm gap.

931
00:37:57,634 --> 00:38:01,304
We still have, women tend
to accommodate more men.

932
00:38:01,804 --> 00:38:06,324
Women are offering oral sex at
high- much higher numbers than

933
00:38:06,334 --> 00:38:10,174
men are offering oral sex to women
in heterosexual relationships.

934
00:38:10,524 --> 00:38:10,784
That's a

935
00:38:10,784 --> 00:38:10,964
good point.

936
00:38:10,964 --> 00:38:12,694
So there are issues there.

937
00:38:12,694 --> 00:38:17,284
It's not just- Yeah … you know, but
I think for a man being asked that

938
00:38:17,284 --> 00:38:21,254
question, it feels like, great, now
I'm just pigeonholed again, that if

939
00:38:21,254 --> 00:38:26,614
I say I really like sex, I'm gonna be
seen as that jerky guy who only cares

940
00:38:26,614 --> 00:38:29,474
about, you know- Yeah … ejaculating

941
00:38:29,474 --> 00:38:29,526
in your vagina.

942
00:38:29,526 --> 00:38:31,284
'Cause that's pretty
much what my thought was.

943
00:38:31,294 --> 00:38:32,194
Like, damn, really?

944
00:38:32,194 --> 00:38:34,784
I have to, now I'm gonna
have to always give it up.

945
00:38:34,794 --> 00:38:35,344
Really?

946
00:38:35,674 --> 00:38:37,494
Is there anything- Yeah … more to me?

947
00:38:37,784 --> 00:38:41,294
Um- Yeah … and I think
that's exactly what probably

948
00:38:41,304 --> 00:38:42,884
was going through my mind when

949
00:38:43,134 --> 00:38:46,434
and then she used me like a piece
of furniture, man, let me tell you.

950
00:38:46,434 --> 00:38:46,444
Ah.

951
00:38:46,944 --> 00:38:48,684
You know, but I got no complaints.

952
00:38:48,684 --> 00:38:48,714
Right.

953
00:38:48,884 --> 00:38:49,624
Don't get me wrong.

954
00:38:49,924 --> 00:38:50,224
Yeah,

955
00:38:50,234 --> 00:38:50,264
right.

956
00:38:50,264 --> 00:38:50,884
I'm okay with this.

957
00:38:51,594 --> 00:38:52,874
I feel fine about it.

958
00:38:52,874 --> 00:38:54,274
I don't need a support group for that.

959
00:38:54,284 --> 00:38:54,774
I'm good.

960
00:38:54,784 --> 00:38:54,804
Um-

961
00:38:55,154 --> 00:38:55,384
That's

962
00:38:55,424 --> 00:38:55,794
right.

963
00:38:56,294 --> 00:38:57,294
Now, I am curious.

964
00:38:57,304 --> 00:39:03,764
Y- so I, I get this question in our
inboxes in social media, everywhere.

965
00:39:04,124 --> 00:39:05,484
I've gotten it a few times.

966
00:39:05,864 --> 00:39:11,564
Here in, in the central Texas
area, there's a lot of people who

967
00:39:11,564 --> 00:39:13,924
are very rooted in their religion.

968
00:39:13,934 --> 00:39:16,554
A lot, a lot more Catholics
than anything else.

969
00:39:16,554 --> 00:39:22,764
But I get the same question a few times,
which is they're very interested in

970
00:39:22,774 --> 00:39:25,734
swinging and exploring this- Mm-hmm

971
00:39:25,744 --> 00:39:27,464
sexual openness as a couple.

972
00:39:27,464 --> 00:39:31,334
They're both very on the same
page about it and this and that.

973
00:39:31,374 --> 00:39:38,334
But they're very much afraid of
How to do so, how it's gonna affect

974
00:39:38,334 --> 00:39:42,274
them because they are very much
in their religious community.

975
00:39:42,284 --> 00:39:42,294
Mm.

976
00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:42,594
Mm-hmm.

977
00:39:42,654 --> 00:39:46,744
And, you know, it, it's like I've
been asked very specifically, "How

978
00:39:46,744 --> 00:39:55,914
am I supposed to balance my faith
and my worship to God and this sexual

979
00:39:55,964 --> 00:39:58,054
wants and desires that we have?

980
00:39:58,054 --> 00:40:03,464
Like, I just, I don't see how we can,
get this all on the same page." What

981
00:40:03,464 --> 00:40:08,144
would you say to, to somebody who's
basically throwing that out there?

982
00:40:09,094 --> 00:40:12,044
And you're talking specifically
about people who still want to

983
00:40:12,044 --> 00:40:13,074
engage in their faith community-

984
00:40:13,074 --> 00:40:13,394
Correct

985
00:40:13,454 --> 00:40:15,424
…
who are not interested-
Mm-hmm … in leaving their church.

986
00:40:15,464 --> 00:40:15,714
Right.

987
00:40:15,714 --> 00:40:15,854
Yeah.

988
00:40:15,854 --> 00:40:17,034
Yeah … love their religion.

989
00:40:17,044 --> 00:40:21,054
Right … love their community, and
they want to have both, but they can't

990
00:40:21,054 --> 00:40:24,854
seem to make it work in their selves.

991
00:40:25,354 --> 00:40:25,854
Yeah.

992
00:40:26,054 --> 00:40:29,324
Inside, yeah, 'cause you've got
some very conflicting principles.

993
00:40:29,324 --> 00:40:29,684
Yeah.

994
00:40:29,684 --> 00:40:30,094
Right.

995
00:40:30,134 --> 00:40:34,724
And a lot of times one of the big
principles in religion is honesty,

996
00:40:34,724 --> 00:40:35,784
you know, you have to be honest.

997
00:40:35,794 --> 00:40:35,854
Mm-hmm.

998
00:40:35,854 --> 00:40:38,564
You have to confess, you have to
tell us everything you're doing.

999
00:40:39,004 --> 00:40:42,254
Um, but another principle
you might have is privacy.

1000
00:40:42,264 --> 00:40:44,494
Like, do I get to have
a private life or not?

1001
00:40:44,934 --> 00:40:49,064
Now, in my church, quite frankly, the
answer would be no, you don't get to.

1002
00:40:49,084 --> 00:40:49,204
Mm-hmm.

1003
00:40:49,224 --> 00:40:53,024
But there are plenty of Mormons
who still are taking that internal

1004
00:40:53,024 --> 00:40:57,014
authority back and are saying, "Well,
even though that's the position of

1005
00:40:57,024 --> 00:41:02,474
the clergy and the church, I'm gonna
decide something different for myself."

1006
00:41:02,484 --> 00:41:08,864
So it does, uh, it does require an
ability to be creative within your

1007
00:41:08,894 --> 00:41:16,404
own interpretation of whatever your
sense of, you know, the doctrine is.

1008
00:41:16,824 --> 00:41:16,854
Sure.

1009
00:41:16,934 --> 00:41:21,164
And this is harder for people who are
more rigid, more black and white thinkers.

1010
00:41:21,164 --> 00:41:24,384
It's like they can't hold two
realities, you know- Right … one time.

1011
00:41:24,904 --> 00:41:27,864
So even, like, thinking of some
of my gay clients, for example,

1012
00:41:27,884 --> 00:41:33,414
I can think of, um, a gay client
who left the church even though he

1013
00:41:33,414 --> 00:41:35,514
still believed in it wholeheartedly.

1014
00:41:35,794 --> 00:41:40,344
But he left it because he knew he
was gonna have gay experiences, which

1015
00:41:40,344 --> 00:41:42,124
is not allowed by the church, right?

1016
00:41:42,134 --> 00:41:42,434
Mm-hmm.

1017
00:41:42,734 --> 00:41:48,454
Then I've got the gay person who's like,
"Well, I'm gonna marry the woman, so I'm

1018
00:41:48,454 --> 00:41:51,864
gonna go the full route that the, I'm
gonna do exactly what the church wants

1019
00:41:51,864 --> 00:41:56,474
me to do, and I'm gonna still believe it,
and we're gonna deal with the issues that

1020
00:41:56,474 --> 00:41:58,004
come with a mixed orientation marriage."

1021
00:41:58,074 --> 00:41:59,534
Then you've got the gay person
who's like- Seen that a lot.

1022
00:42:00,314 --> 00:42:00,624
Right.

1023
00:42:00,744 --> 00:42:04,514
Then we're gonna have the gay person who's
"I'm still, you know, I'm out because

1024
00:42:04,564 --> 00:42:05,914
I think you guys are all fucked up.

1025
00:42:05,914 --> 00:42:06,924
You fucked me up.

1026
00:42:07,114 --> 00:42:08,154
I'm super pissed.

1027
00:42:08,154 --> 00:42:13,554
You guys were not affirming." So they
leave both behaviorally and belief-wise.

1028
00:42:13,694 --> 00:42:16,894
And then there's the people who
are like, "I'm not a traditional

1029
00:42:16,894 --> 00:42:21,104
believer, and there's no room in this
church for me to not be a traditional

1030
00:42:21,104 --> 00:42:25,754
believer, so I'm gonna keep that to
myself. That's gonna be private."

1031
00:42:25,844 --> 00:42:30,474
"
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a relationship
with my God, with my scriptures, with

1032
00:42:30,484 --> 00:42:35,384
my beliefs, and I'm going to still
enjoy the community, not from a space

1033
00:42:35,384 --> 00:42:39,754
of thinking that I'm being dishonest,
but just knowing that they're not safe

1034
00:42:39,754 --> 00:42:41,634
enough for me to be completely honest."

1035
00:42:42,114 --> 00:42:46,154
And so they're able to hold that
tension between their belief

1036
00:42:46,154 --> 00:42:51,574
system, their community, and they
can feel good with their God in

1037
00:42:51,574 --> 00:42:53,994
their ways of living their life.

1038
00:42:54,494 --> 00:42:54,644
Right.

1039
00:42:54,644 --> 00:42:59,124
So that, that does take an ability to
go from external authority, "I'm gonna

1040
00:42:59,244 --> 00:43:03,564
let everybody else tell me how I should
live my life"- To internal authority.

1041
00:43:03,634 --> 00:43:05,644
I still find value in this belief system.

1042
00:43:05,644 --> 00:43:09,884
There's still things here I hold dear
and true, and there's parts that I

1043
00:43:09,904 --> 00:43:13,154
don't really totally believe or that
I think they have wrong or they're

1044
00:43:13,154 --> 00:43:16,564
not gonna really fully accept me and
I'm not willing to pay that high cost.

1045
00:43:16,644 --> 00:43:18,564
Mm. So I will keep this private.

1046
00:43:19,454 --> 00:43:22,304
So there's all different
kinds of ways, right?

1047
00:43:22,314 --> 00:43:22,334
Yeah.

1048
00:43:22,394 --> 00:43:24,624
To try to navigate something like that.

1049
00:43:25,154 --> 00:43:25,464
Yeah.

1050
00:43:25,464 --> 00:43:30,914
Well, you know, Pris, when she, she came
out as bisexual we knew right off the

1051
00:43:30,914 --> 00:43:35,164
bat, like we went… I think we went
to church once or twice after that.

1052
00:43:35,794 --> 00:43:37,424
Uh- I know … and she
was like, I can't be here.

1053
00:43:37,424 --> 00:43:40,634
Knowing where the stance is and this
and that, like, I can't be here.

1054
00:43:40,634 --> 00:43:42,904
And I was like, "Thank you."
'Cause I didn't wanna go- Yeah.

1055
00:43:42,904 --> 00:43:43,454
… to begin with.

1056
00:43:43,454 --> 00:43:46,604
Like I left- I didn't wanna be there
When I, when I left the seminary,

1057
00:43:46,654 --> 00:43:48,214
I was done with the religion.

1058
00:43:48,214 --> 00:43:52,554
I, I walked away- Yeah … and I said,
you know, there's nothing that, that

1059
00:43:53,334 --> 00:43:59,744
kind of ruins you a- as far as your
eyes towards a religion more than

1060
00:43:59,754 --> 00:44:02,644
being groomed to be a leader in it.

1061
00:44:02,674 --> 00:44:07,234
And so when you start getting positioned
to be a leader in a religion, you

1062
00:44:07,234 --> 00:44:09,114
start seeing some pretty foul stuff.

1063
00:44:09,114 --> 00:44:10,874
You start seeing things that-

1064
00:44:10,924 --> 00:44:13,624
…
Most of the people in the
congregation don't see.

1065
00:44:13,624 --> 00:44:13,738
Mm-hmm, yeah.

1066
00:44:13,738 --> 00:44:15,924
And if they do see, they
turn a blind eye to, and it's

1067
00:44:15,924 --> 00:44:17,434
like, yeah, I don't like that.

1068
00:44:17,884 --> 00:44:18,294
Yeah.

1069
00:44:18,314 --> 00:44:22,884
And, uh, you know, I was one who asked
a lot of questions, and I like to study

1070
00:44:22,904 --> 00:44:27,774
other religions because to me, it's
like we're all human beings, and that

1071
00:44:27,774 --> 00:44:30,484
wasn't accepted very well, uh, either.

1072
00:44:30,494 --> 00:44:30,914
Right.

1073
00:44:30,914 --> 00:44:31,304
You know?

1074
00:44:31,304 --> 00:44:31,314
Right.

1075
00:44:31,314 --> 00:44:33,104
And, uh, by the people at the seminary.

1076
00:44:33,104 --> 00:44:35,774
And so, you know, it was just one of
those things where I said, "I'm gone.

1077
00:44:35,784 --> 00:44:36,384
I'm done.

1078
00:44:36,394 --> 00:44:39,714
I don't wanna do this." And when
she had expressed, "Well, we have

1079
00:44:39,724 --> 00:44:43,484
kids now, and, this is right," blah,
blah, blah, and I said, "I'll do

1080
00:44:43,484 --> 00:44:45,864
it because you want to do it, but-"

1081
00:44:45,864 --> 00:44:46,094
Yeah

1082
00:44:46,444 --> 00:44:48,484
… "
know that I'm going begrudgingly."

1083
00:44:48,634 --> 00:44:48,974
Yeah.

1084
00:44:49,004 --> 00:44:49,414
Um-

1085
00:44:49,424 --> 00:44:49,834
Right

1086
00:44:50,184 --> 00:44:53,474
…
so when she came out as bisexual, and
then she said two weeks later, she's

1087
00:44:53,474 --> 00:44:54,724
like, "I can't go to church anymore," Mm

1088
00:44:54,734 --> 00:44:55,964
I was like, "Okay, cool."

1089
00:44:55,974 --> 00:44:58,164
And I did lose a lot of family in that.

1090
00:44:58,164 --> 00:44:58,254
Yeah.

1091
00:44:58,254 --> 00:45:05,084
So I have a, a one part- Yes … that's
very Christian, I found Jesus- … again

1092
00:45:05,094 --> 00:45:09,264
type of thing, and then I have
the other part that's not really

1093
00:45:09,264 --> 00:45:13,094
religious in that way, but it's just
like, "Mm, nah, you like girls, not

1094
00:45:13,094 --> 00:45:14,744
gonna happen." Like it's- Mm-hmm

1095
00:45:14,754 --> 00:45:15,774
we just won't accept that.

1096
00:45:16,114 --> 00:45:16,464
But yeah.

1097
00:45:16,744 --> 00:45:21,164
Even now, like, just going back
real quick, you had s- like we were

1098
00:45:21,164 --> 00:45:25,314
talking about being young and not
knowing like your… Like you weren't

1099
00:45:25,314 --> 00:45:28,004
able to be open and whatnot, right?

1100
00:45:28,064 --> 00:45:28,854
Mm-hmm.

1101
00:45:28,864 --> 00:45:28,884
Um,

1102
00:45:29,734 --> 00:45:33,714
I still… I'm not very… I'm, we're
not religious, but I do express to

1103
00:45:33,714 --> 00:45:38,488
my children, like you don't have
to You don't have to save yourself.

1104
00:45:38,498 --> 00:45:42,878
You don't … you should try out
whatever you wanna try out and-

1105
00:45:42,878 --> 00:45:43,868
Yeah … do what you wanna do.

1106
00:45:43,878 --> 00:45:45,148
Be free about it.

1107
00:45:45,158 --> 00:45:53,698
Be careful, but be open, be free, and
enjoy life because I do, we do share some

1108
00:45:53,698 --> 00:45:59,328
kids and my biological children, their
father is very religious in a sense.

1109
00:45:59,388 --> 00:45:59,908
Mm-hmm

1110
00:46:00,088 --> 00:46:03,968
…
and they're both bisexual children,
but have never come out to their

1111
00:46:03,978 --> 00:46:06,408
dad, but have come out to us.

1112
00:46:06,408 --> 00:46:06,878
Mm-hmm.

1113
00:46:06,878 --> 00:46:11,108
And we really try to raise them in
that kind of way, where it's more

1114
00:46:11,208 --> 00:46:14,918
open-minded and not, not so religious.

1115
00:46:14,918 --> 00:46:19,618
Like, even we don't… E- even because we
don't practice it, it's still out there.

1116
00:46:19,818 --> 00:46:23,428
Like, there's still- Yeah … people,
you know, there's still other friends,

1117
00:46:23,508 --> 00:46:27,338
"Oh, you should, you should really, like,
stay a virgin," or, "You really shouldn't

1118
00:46:27,338 --> 00:46:29,068
do this and you shouldn't do that."

1119
00:46:29,078 --> 00:46:32,628
And so, like, I'm always in my kids'
ears and I'm like, "You can do whatever

1120
00:46:32,738 --> 00:46:35,408
you want. Like, we're your parent.
Like, we are here for you." Mm-hmm.

1121
00:46:35,408 --> 00:46:37,828
"But just be safe about
it and enjoy life."

1122
00:46:37,868 --> 00:46:39,888
Yeah, we try to be the
parents that we didn't have-

1123
00:46:39,898 --> 00:46:43,258
Yeah … growing up … because we
don't, you know, we don't… We know

1124
00:46:43,258 --> 00:46:47,608
social media's out there and we know
that, religion-ish type of stuff is

1125
00:46:47,608 --> 00:46:51,938
going to seep in because there's still
a lot of closed-minded people out there.

1126
00:46:52,718 --> 00:46:53,388
Yeah.

1127
00:46:53,418 --> 00:46:55,748
I mean- Yeah … unfortunately,
there really is.

1128
00:46:55,818 --> 00:47:00,928
Well, you know, non-monogamy has really
taken more of a mainstay since, uh, COVID.

1129
00:47:01,518 --> 00:47:03,684
People were on lockdown- People got bored.

1130
00:47:03,684 --> 00:47:09,018
… for a whole year, and they explored,
uh, different podcasts and content-

1131
00:47:09,028 --> 00:47:11,558
Yeah … creators and that sort of
thing, and it really pushed- Yeah

1132
00:47:11,638 --> 00:47:14,688
swinging and polyamory to the forefront.

1133
00:47:15,098 --> 00:47:21,388
And people are accepting more of it
now, uh, than previous to that time.

1134
00:47:21,388 --> 00:47:23,008
So that, I think, is a positive.

1135
00:47:23,388 --> 00:47:28,408
Uh, we have this show because we
wanted to normalize discussions about

1136
00:47:28,408 --> 00:47:33,778
sex, discussions about non-monogamy,
discussions about wants and desires.

1137
00:47:33,778 --> 00:47:34,858
And, and we're…

1138
00:47:35,218 --> 00:47:39,288
it's a show about us and what
we go through day to day.

1139
00:47:39,318 --> 00:47:44,118
And we're a real couple that we
have to maneuver through this stuff-

1140
00:47:44,408 --> 00:47:48,808
Mm-hmm … and navigate it, and it
can be- Right … exhausting mentally.

1141
00:47:49,108 --> 00:47:55,268
But we do it and so our listeners get
to hear our conversations on this show.

1142
00:47:55,558 --> 00:47:59,708
And it's helpful because then
they know, "Hey, you know, it is

1143
00:47:59,708 --> 00:48:03,828
okay to talk to my spouse and tell
them that I'm feeling this way."

1144
00:48:04,168 --> 00:48:07,288
Like, "I should be okay. Adam did
it with his wife, and they were

1145
00:48:07,288 --> 00:48:09,098
recording." You know what I mean?

1146
00:48:09,098 --> 00:48:09,478
It's like, yeah.

1147
00:48:09,568 --> 00:48:09,598
Right,

1148
00:48:09,648 --> 00:48:09,908
right.

1149
00:48:09,978 --> 00:48:10,958
And I survived.

1150
00:48:10,998 --> 00:48:12,578
I didn't get a black eye-
Yeah … or anything.

1151
00:48:12,608 --> 00:48:13,528
Like, I'm okay.

1152
00:48:13,538 --> 00:48:13,558
Yeah.

1153
00:48:13,968 --> 00:48:15,928
It didn't hurt at all, you know?

1154
00:48:15,948 --> 00:48:15,968
Yeah.

1155
00:48:15,978 --> 00:48:19,858
We've had shows where she was crying,
you know, that sort of thing- Mm-hmm

1156
00:48:19,868 --> 00:48:22,848
because it was just a heavy-
Mm-hmm … heavy kind of topic.

1157
00:48:23,478 --> 00:48:23,918
Um- Sure.

1158
00:48:24,318 --> 00:48:25,188
You're being vulnerable.

1159
00:48:25,488 --> 00:48:25,638
Mm-hmm.

1160
00:48:25,638 --> 00:48:26,418
Exactly.

1161
00:48:26,418 --> 00:48:26,448
And-

1162
00:48:26,448 --> 00:48:27,048
And real.

1163
00:48:27,098 --> 00:48:27,468
And it is.

1164
00:48:27,468 --> 00:48:27,788
Yeah.

1165
00:48:27,788 --> 00:48:28,168
Yeah.

1166
00:48:28,178 --> 00:48:28,208
Mm-hmm.

1167
00:48:28,318 --> 00:48:31,258
And it's, it's one of those
things where we've always said

1168
00:48:31,258 --> 00:48:33,268
communication is everything.

1169
00:48:33,688 --> 00:48:41,638
As a sex therapist, how much of- advice
you give revolves around communication.

1170
00:48:42,138 --> 00:48:43,368
Oh, like so much of it.

1171
00:48:43,898 --> 00:48:44,018
Yeah.

1172
00:48:44,558 --> 00:48:45,378
So much of it.

1173
00:48:45,388 --> 00:48:45,408
Yeah.

1174
00:48:45,478 --> 00:48:50,998
I run a seven-week group for people who
are going from monogamy to non-monogamy.

1175
00:48:50,998 --> 00:48:51,283
Oh, wow.

1176
00:48:51,283 --> 00:48:53,168
And it's so interesting to hear them.

1177
00:48:53,198 --> 00:48:57,408
Every single time I get this, it's like
these are all things that would've helped

1178
00:48:57,408 --> 00:48:59,588
our monogamous relationship, right?

1179
00:48:59,588 --> 00:49:02,518
These are not, like,
non-monogamy specific.

1180
00:49:02,518 --> 00:49:05,978
It's not like we don't deal with
jealousy when we're monogamous.

1181
00:49:05,978 --> 00:49:09,908
It's not like we don't deal with
agreements when we're n- monogamous.

1182
00:49:09,908 --> 00:49:10,328
It doesn't-

1183
00:49:10,428 --> 00:49:14,768
…
Mean that we're not dealing with different
preferences and drives and desires and

1184
00:49:14,768 --> 00:49:18,288
fantasies when we're monogamous, and
those are all the same things that we're

1185
00:49:18,288 --> 00:49:20,508
dealing with in non-monogamy, right?

1186
00:49:20,508 --> 00:49:20,688
Yeah.

1187
00:49:20,688 --> 00:49:24,218
And so as I'm walking them through
kinda like, here's a roadmap," right?

1188
00:49:24,218 --> 00:49:27,178
"That you can try to think through
things as you're entering this

1189
00:49:27,198 --> 00:49:31,668
new relationship structure," that-
that's the feedback I get the most.

1190
00:49:31,868 --> 00:49:32,278
Um…

1191
00:49:32,328 --> 00:49:32,688
Yeah.

1192
00:49:33,078 --> 00:49:36,988
And I loved your, you know, your
thoughts about offering your

1193
00:49:36,988 --> 00:49:38,878
kids something different, right?

1194
00:49:38,888 --> 00:49:42,688
It's like that's such a sex
positive approach to parenting.

1195
00:49:42,688 --> 00:49:45,028
It's not like you should
or you shouldn't have sex.

1196
00:49:45,048 --> 00:49:45,308
Mm-hmm.

1197
00:49:45,658 --> 00:49:48,248
It's like, here's the options, right?

1198
00:49:48,248 --> 00:49:52,738
And here's- positives and
risks and benefits to all

1199
00:49:52,738 --> 00:49:54,488
these different options, right?

1200
00:49:54,488 --> 00:49:54,698
Yeah.

1201
00:49:54,698 --> 00:49:59,158
Um, and letting them know that
there are safe ways to go about it.

1202
00:49:59,158 --> 00:50:03,848
I mean, the, the classic messages
we got in religious circles in

1203
00:50:03,848 --> 00:50:06,288
particular, and it's going around again.

1204
00:50:06,288 --> 00:50:09,268
I don't know what this backfire
effect is, but we are, you know,

1205
00:50:09,268 --> 00:50:12,098
our young people, instead of going
ahead of us, they're, like, becoming

1206
00:50:12,098 --> 00:50:16,108
trad wives and- Yeah … they're now
caring about body count, you know?

1207
00:50:16,108 --> 00:50:18,718
And I'm like- Yeah … "Oh my gosh, I
haven't heard that term in, like, 20

1208
00:50:18,728 --> 00:50:20,158
years," and now it's all over- Yeah.

1209
00:50:20,698 --> 00:50:22,338
… the, you know, the internet again.

1210
00:50:22,348 --> 00:50:22,368
Yeah.

1211
00:50:22,378 --> 00:50:27,498
And so it's just, But this idea
that somehow if you, if you explore

1212
00:50:27,498 --> 00:50:30,668
with your body… We don't do
this with any other thing, right?

1213
00:50:30,668 --> 00:50:35,018
With careers and college, we're
like, "Go try a few things out.

1214
00:50:35,028 --> 00:50:37,498
Don't make the decision right away." Yeah.

1215
00:50:37,648 --> 00:50:41,218
You know, "You'll find what works for
you, but you've gotta, like, you know,

1216
00:50:41,218 --> 00:50:43,768
go down this path, and if you don't
like it- Uh-huh … there's these

1217
00:50:43,768 --> 00:50:44,861
other paths you can go down." Uh-huh.

1218
00:50:44,861 --> 00:50:49,998
But with sex, it's like, "Ooh, if you
explore, you're gonna ruin yourself."

1219
00:50:50,058 --> 00:50:53,878
"
You're gonna ruin your ability
to bond with other people.

1220
00:50:53,948 --> 00:50:59,448
You're gonna ruin the ability to have
erections and good sex if you masturbate

1221
00:50:59,458 --> 00:51:03,878
too much." I mean, like, none of this
has any evidence-backed research to

1222
00:51:03,878 --> 00:51:10,318
support it, but we have this real fear
of using our bodies as an experiment.

1223
00:51:10,328 --> 00:51:10,708
Mm-hmm.

1224
00:51:10,838 --> 00:51:15,948
And cycling back to shame, I think this
was what a big part of my personal work,

1225
00:51:16,458 --> 00:51:23,138
especially as I was going into ENM spaces,
is this idea that What if I have a regret?

1226
00:51:23,638 --> 00:51:29,188
In religious land, having a sexual regret
means I might not make it to heaven.

1227
00:51:29,198 --> 00:51:31,248
That's a pretty high cost, right?

1228
00:51:31,948 --> 00:51:34,848
But now I can be like, "You
know what? Having a regret

1229
00:51:34,868 --> 00:51:36,678
is not the end of the world."

1230
00:51:37,058 --> 00:51:37,428
Yeah.

1231
00:51:37,428 --> 00:51:38,938
I might have a regret.

1232
00:51:39,438 --> 00:51:41,878
I now gathered more
information for myself.

1233
00:51:41,928 --> 00:51:41,948
Yeah

1234
00:51:41,958 --> 00:51:46,258
some data that helps me make decisions
similarly or differently the next

1235
00:51:46,258 --> 00:51:48,468
time I want to explore my body, right?

1236
00:51:48,468 --> 00:51:53,478
And so having these kinds of ways to
reframe things is what's so powerful

1237
00:51:53,478 --> 00:51:57,978
about potentially sitting with a
sex-affirming, you know, non-monogamy

1238
00:51:57,978 --> 00:52:02,968
affirming professional who can help
you sort out all these weird messages

1239
00:52:02,978 --> 00:52:04,608
that are going through our systems.

1240
00:52:05,108 --> 00:52:08,568
Natasha, you are… I could listen
to you all day, I'm not gonna lie.

1241
00:52:08,898 --> 00:52:11,548
This conversation has been
absolutely incredible.

1242
00:52:11,548 --> 00:52:14,618
I think a lot of our listeners
are gonna hear pieces of their

1243
00:52:14,618 --> 00:52:16,908
own story probably- Mm-hmm … in
the stuff that was shared today.

1244
00:52:16,908 --> 00:52:16,968
For

1245
00:52:16,968 --> 00:52:17,348
sure.

1246
00:52:17,398 --> 00:52:22,068
But before we start to wrap up,
before we let you go you have

1247
00:52:22,068 --> 00:52:23,268
a book coming out, don't you?

1248
00:52:23,318 --> 00:52:23,658
Yeah.

1249
00:52:24,158 --> 00:52:24,239
Well, yeah.

1250
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:24,758
Are you working on a book, yeah?

1251
00:52:24,828 --> 00:52:26,418
Plug in your

1252
00:52:26,418 --> 00:52:26,858
stuff, girl.

1253
00:52:26,858 --> 00:52:27,518
I'm so excited.

1254
00:52:27,518 --> 00:52:28,398
Tell us about it,

1255
00:52:28,398 --> 00:52:28,618
please.

1256
00:52:28,618 --> 00:52:30,478
All right, let me tell
you all my cool things.

1257
00:52:30,488 --> 00:52:32,028
So yes- Okay … I do have a book.

1258
00:52:32,478 --> 00:52:35,048
It's kind of memoir/self-help book.

1259
00:52:35,048 --> 00:52:38,378
Hopefully people will read it
like that, about my story, and

1260
00:52:38,378 --> 00:52:41,618
it's ho- uh, the tentative title
is Sex Communicated, right?

1261
00:52:41,618 --> 00:52:41,908
Like…

1262
00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:42,888
Uh-huh.

1263
00:52:42,948 --> 00:52:43,468
I made that up.

1264
00:52:43,768 --> 00:52:44,068
Okay.

1265
00:52:44,068 --> 00:52:45,618
I'm like, I'm gonna
claim that right back."

1266
00:52:45,628 --> 00:52:46,158
Yes.

1267
00:52:46,188 --> 00:52:49,918
I also, um, here, if you're
ever in Salt Lake City, Utah,

1268
00:52:49,938 --> 00:52:53,418
we have a fabulous new space.

1269
00:52:53,668 --> 00:52:57,478
Um, a lot of people call it a sex club,
but it's actually a spiritual community

1270
00:52:57,478 --> 00:53:00,058
because it's organized as a religion.

1271
00:53:00,108 --> 00:53:00,402
I actually know what
you're talking about, yes.

1272
00:53:00,402 --> 00:53:00,778
It's called The

1273
00:53:00,928 --> 00:53:01,708
Sanctuary-

1274
00:53:01,708 --> 00:53:02,620
I've heard of it … Salt Lake City.

1275
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:03,480
Oh.

1276
00:53:03,550 --> 00:53:04,190
We've been in- Our friends

1277
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:04,530
were just

1278
00:53:04,530 --> 00:53:04,560
there.

1279
00:53:04,570 --> 00:53:06,960
Yeah, we've been, uh,
invited- to it a couple times.

1280
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,240
We just, uh, we wanna go out there.

1281
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:09,150
We haven't made the chance yet, but.

1282
00:53:09,150 --> 00:53:10,740
Yeah, well, come out and

1283
00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:11,530
visit us.

1284
00:53:11,530 --> 00:53:12,020
Okay.

1285
00:53:12,020 --> 00:53:17,650
And it is a beautiful space and, you
know, people can have their belief system

1286
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:23,740
explored in the space where instead of
the purity culture, we're like, "Sexuality

1287
00:53:23,740 --> 00:53:27,780
is connective. Sexuality is to be
explored. Sexuality is to have healthy

1288
00:53:27,780 --> 00:53:32,540
principles," you know, that can enlighten
people's lives and things of that nature.

1289
00:53:32,540 --> 00:53:35,340
So I'm on the board for The
Sanctuary, and I teach some

1290
00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:37,650
classes there, so by all means.

1291
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:38,090
Awesome.

1292
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:42,100
Then if you go to natashahalford.com,
which is my website I've also

1293
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:46,840
partnered with a cruise called Fantasy,
and they do a lifestyle cruise.

1294
00:53:46,850 --> 00:53:46,870
Mm-hmm.

1295
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:50,320
And we're having another one
in February um, and I'll be

1296
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,640
teaching classes on the cruise.

1297
00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:55,690
They're more experiential, so
hopefully a little more sexy than

1298
00:53:55,690 --> 00:53:57,070
just listening to me lecture.

1299
00:53:57,870 --> 00:54:02,490
And, um, and then, uh, and then this
seven-week group that I do as well.

1300
00:54:02,490 --> 00:54:06,530
So everything that I offer, or if
you wanna work with me personally as

1301
00:54:06,530 --> 00:54:10,070
well, 'cause I still see clients, you
know, and have space every now and

1302
00:54:10,070 --> 00:54:14,060
then for a few clients to come work
with me, you can find on my website.

1303
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:15,740
That's frigging awesome.

1304
00:54:15,740 --> 00:54:17,140
Natasha, thank you so
much for- We're gonna be

1305
00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:17,550
there

1306
00:54:17,650 --> 00:54:17,810
Okay.

1307
00:54:17,890 --> 00:54:19,240
… generous with your story.

1308
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:19,410
Yeah, thank you so much.

1309
00:54:19,570 --> 00:54:19,810
Yeah.

1310
00:54:19,860 --> 00:54:21,560
I enjoyed every minute.

1311
00:54:21,590 --> 00:54:22,900
This was a really good show.

1312
00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:23,300
Yeah.

1313
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:26,420
We're gonna have, uh- Thank
you … all those links, uh, to

1314
00:54:26,430 --> 00:54:27,880
everything in our show notes.

1315
00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:27,910
Mm-hmm.

1316
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:31,100
So everybody go give her a
follow and check out her work.

1317
00:54:31,110 --> 00:54:31,170
Thank you.

1318
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:36,840
And hey, if tonight's episode brought
something up for you, something that you

1319
00:54:36,860 --> 00:54:39,880
maybe you've been sitting on or something
you just wanna- Mm-hmm … vent, rant,

1320
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:44,700
or share your own story anonymously,
head to beyond-monogamy.com and leave

1321
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:46,990
us a 100% anonymous confessional.

1322
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:49,370
We read every single one of those.

1323
00:54:49,550 --> 00:54:52,310
You can tell us anything that
you need to get off your chest.

1324
00:54:52,660 --> 00:54:55,570
Uh, and you know, as long as
you say it's okay, we will talk

1325
00:54:55,580 --> 00:54:57,590
about it on a future episode.

1326
00:54:57,700 --> 00:55:01,270
And if you can't get enough of us,
you want more, remember, we are on

1327
00:55:01,270 --> 00:55:05,860
Full Swap Radio live every Thursday
at 2:00 PM and 7:00 PM Central.

1328
00:55:05,860 --> 00:55:07,010
So head on over there.

1329
00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:08,990
That's right, fullswapradio.com.

1330
00:55:08,990 --> 00:55:09,610
Don't forget it.

1331
00:55:10,110 --> 00:55:13,450
And with that, we thank you all
for joining us for another episode,

1332
00:55:13,870 --> 00:55:15,440
and we will see you guys next week.

1333
00:55:15,570 --> 00:55:16,550
Bye.