Sexual Shame, Religious Trauma & Ethical Non-Monogamy with Sex Therapist Natasha Helfer

0:07 All right, y'all. Before we dive in, a quick heads-up This show is raw, real, and definitely not rated PG We're talking about adult themes, sexual content, and the kinda stuff you probably don't want blasting through your speakers at work or around your kids So grab some headphones, pour your drink of choice, and get comfy Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not licensed therapists, counselors, or sex couches. Sex coaches. Sex coaches Not sex couches We're just a couple of people sharing our lives, experiences, and sexy adventures in ethical non-monogamy.

0:47 So with that, pull up a chair and enjoy the show Hello, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Monogamy. I'm Adam. And I'm Pris. And today we are so excited to be sitting down with Natasha Helfer, an AASECT-certified sex therapist, author, and founder of Symmetry Counseling, who's spent the last three decades helping people untangle religious and sexual shame, and reconnect with their own bodies, desires, and autonomy. Natasha's story made national headlines after she was excommunicated from the LDS Church for speaking openly about sex, faith, and mental health, all important stuff. And she's been doing some of the boldest, most compassionate work in this space ever since.

1:31 So if you've ever felt like your body or your desires were something to be ashamed of, this is the episode for you. That's right. And before we jump in, if you're new here, please hit follow so you don't miss another episode. And head to beyond-monogamy.com for all our links, past episodes, and ways to connect with us. Natasha, welcome to the show. Yes. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. That was a really nice intro. I feel all special now. Everybody says that. Everybody says that. I'm like, "You make them so long." He's like, "I gotta hype up our guests." I'm like, "That's… That- Well, you- … that's right." And, you know, for me, our, our guests are our part of our community. Yeah. And- Mm-hmm Yeah … our show exists to hype, hype up the people in our community.

2:11 And, you know, that's, that's really what I'm like, you know, let's, let's throw it all out there. And if he has me read it, I stop in the middle. I'm like, "That's too much reading." She's like, "That's too much reading. I can't do this." I can't do that. And I'm like, "But that's fun reading. That's happy reading." He's better at it anyway. Well, I can relate. But welcome. Yeah. Thank you. Welcome, welcome. You're- I run, I run a podcast too, and it's the same thing. I, I always feel like the intros are so long, but I'm trying to get all that info in there. I know. So I get it. Yeah. If you think the intro's long, wait till the outro. Okay. I'm here for it. The afterglow, right? Like- That's right. Yeah. It's good if it's… It's good if it's long and slow. That's very true. That goes for a lot of different things, I can tell you that. That's right. That's right. Um, now, you know, I was initially turned on by you through Pris.

2:55 Mm-hmm. Pris had, uh, actually found you on TikTok. I now follow you myself, and I gotta tell you, your story initially hooked me in because I f- I was very fascinated by that. But then everything that you have to follow and everything that you talk about is just 20 times more interesting. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna start at the beginning if we could, and I, I, I'd love for you to tell your story on how you got here. Yeah. Okay. That, that'll only take three hours. But, um We can do that. The short version. Right, the short version. Cribs notes will be fine. Yeah, exactly. I th- I grew up like a lot of folks, you know, like in, in what I would say conservative religious spaces, right?

3:37 I, I happened to get the Mormon brand of that, uh, or the Mormon flavor and and that, that faith community tends to be, fairly strict in regards to sexuality, as a lot of other religious- Yeah … you know, folks grow up either Jehovah's Witness or Catholic or Orthodox Jewish or, you know, there's-- and of course- I was in the Catholic seminary, so- You were in the Catholic- Yeah, I was. That was, that was your flavor. Yeah, I was, I was in training to be a priest, uh- Yeah. … in my early 20s, so yeah. I get it. Okay. That means you've got a good story too. So, yeah. So I think a lot of us are growing up in religious communities where the term purity culture probably makes sense to a lot of folks, right?

4:21 Which is this idea that our, our value was definitely, especially as women, our value was in staying pure, virginal with the idea that you're gonna eventually find, you know, your soulmate partner hopefully within the faith community, too, right? Yeah. A lot of people care about that, and then you're, you're gonna start off as virgins, and pure, and wholesome, and go off into, you know, the rainbow land of whatever. Like, just, you know, fantasy of- Happily ever after … um, the never… Yeah, the happily ever after. Exactly. Yeah. And there's a lot of problems with that, uh, from a lot of different perspectives, but especially for us who grew up religious, there's a lot of imprinted shame that gets really internalized.

5:07 You know? Mm-hmm. And the way that that shows up in my office a lot of times with my clients is like, well, it was like, "No, no, no," and then all of a sudden it was expected to be, "Go, go, go." And that, you know, our nervous systems don't function like that. Mm-hmm. You can't, like, download for years, especially developmentally important years when we're supposed to be curious and exploring some of our sexuality, but we're told, "Oh, that's really, really bad and sinful," and, and a lot of these, religions use pretty horrible words, you know? Yeah. Like perverse, and wicked, and abominations, and- … Slippery slopes to whoredoms and, you know, just all kinds of just very negative, I would say, provocative language that provokes your nervous system to get anxious, and scared, and worried about your own body, about your own sexuality, and of course the fantasies and things that are… don't always fall in that kinda heteronormative, monogamy privileged world that we all get such strong downloads on.

6:06 Yeah. Yeah. We see those words a lot on our comments section, Yeah … like on YouTube and stuff like that. People- Oh, yeah. People who are attacking you. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yes. I have been called every name in the book just for posting whatever I post and so, yeah. I didn't… I never thought about that, though, what you just said. I've never thought about how much that affects your- your upbringing, right? Especially if you don't stay in that kind of religion. I never thought about how it, your primitive years, your times when you're going through puberty and stuff, it's like, okay, you have all these thoughts and now someone's telling you that it's bad. Yeah. I never, I didn't think about that. I mean, I was g- I grew up Catholic, but you know, my mom always say just, my mom wasn't- She grew up a loose Catholic.

6:50 Yeah, a loose Catholic. There you go. That's, she- I mean … they didn't practice that much. Yeah, no. But I was told- Not like the guy who was in training to be a priest. They- Yeah. I was told to save myself. Didn't happen, but yeah. Yeah. Right. Anyway. Exactly. And so, yeah, so my path goes down a pretty similar path as far as the religious, you know, downloads. Then I was, um, also a victim of childhood sexual abuse- Uh-huh … which is also a very common, unfortunate shared experience- Yeah for many of us. And then I did have premarital sex And a lot of that was, that was interesting how I tried to make sense of that because I really wanted to be the good girl. You know, I wasn't like the rebel kind or wanting to get in trouble, but I was also like you, sexually curious and- Mm-hmm interested.

7:38 I started masturbating from a very young age. I can't remember a time I didn't masturbate. Yeah. So I was a, a kind of probably a high-drive, curious sexual being. We all come in different varieties of that. And, um, and so then because I'm having premarital sex, which is such a sin, even though it's with my long-term boyfriend and wasn't like- Yeah a hookup. Not that there's anything wrong with hookups. But I'm just saying, you know, it, it was so interesting how I perceived that at the time, and I could only explain it through my sexual trauma. See, I'm broken. I'm sexually traumatized, therefore I'm promiscuous. Mm. And I don't have control over my sexuality because I inherently am broken.

8:23 And granted, remember my definition of promiscuity at that point was one partner, one premarital partner. Oh. Right. Right. So then I go through repentance processes at church, which, you know, some churches make you go through that, some don't. Confessions, things of that. And then I I hit, uh, my college years, and I decide to go to Brigham Young University, which is the Mormon… one of the Mormon universities, and I have sex again, this time with a fiancé, right? And so again, it's pretty serious, committed relationship. But I just thought this was devastating, you know, that I had done this sin again. And, uh, so again, that… and I went and confessed, and I got kicked out of the university.

9:05 So talk about shame downloads, right? No kidding. Wow. Like, you know, this is high-cost behavior and confessions to be honest about what's happening with me sexually. Zero trauma-informed help, right? It's not like people are looking at me through a trauma-informed lens. They're just looking at me from that clergy. Mm-hmm. " You're doing naughty things, you bad girl with loose legs," or whatever they wanna- Mm-hmm … you know, deem me as. And then that sets me up for the damaged goods narrative, which is very common too. Like, you know, you're the chewed piece of gum or you're the, the petal, the rose wh- everybody has handled your petals and now you're, you know, withered, and who's gonna want that type of person- As I'm choosing, m- a mate to get married to.

9:51 And so I had a lot of shame of even talking about my premarital experiences and And that went into my marriage and impacted our sexual relationship, of course. How could it not? Yeah. And, um, and then I become a therapist of mostly religious people, right? Uh, like Mormons, and I was, um, living in… A lot of time I was living in the Bible Belt, like in Wichita, Kansas. There's a lot of evangelicals who I would see. Mm-hmm. I saw a lot of Catholics, especially Hispanic Catholics. My mom's from Argentina, so I'm a white Latina, so I speak Spanish fluently. So these themes were just coming up, of people really feeling ashamed, judging each other. You know, when you mentioned, "Oh, people judge your comments," I, I now see that as, oh, that's a projection.

10:36 You're projecting- Yes … your own shame onto those of us who've maybe deconstructed it a bit. Mm-hmm. You know, but you've been taught to think that way about the world. You've been taught to think about that for yourself. And so now when there's other people like us who've broken free from all that stuff, it's like, ooh, you're, you're really bad 'cause most of- Yeah … our culture still really demonizes non-monogamy in so many ways, so. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, so I, I got I got to be a therapist. I started realizing this isn't working for a lot of people. The sex stuff isn't working. The queer stuff isn't working. The kinky stuff isn't working. We can't even freaking masturbate without a lot of guilt, so even- Yeah … self-love isn't working, and this is having high cost for- relationships, individual self-esteem.

11:28 It can affect your mental health when you're constantly in a battle with yourself. Mm-hmm. The whole kind of incorrect sex addiction model that really came out of the '80s and the AIDS scare is still alive and well in mostly religious communities. Oh, yeah. So people, especially men, are constantly being called sex addicts because they have a relationship with pornography or have fantasies that don't just include their, pristine wife and oof, We've got a lot. Wow. So then I started speaking about all of that publicly. And yeah, it got me into a lot of ecclesiastical trouble. Mm-hmm. And in 2021, I went through an excommunication process with my church, uh, which was very painful.

12:11 I see church environments-- I mean, some people kinda like leave and never look back, and they weren't that really interested. I was very committed to my religion. I was very committed to the people within my religion, so I saw it more like a family system. Yeah, it's got problems, and I'm here to try to hopefully make it better, but I wasn't wanting to leave it. Yeah. I was wanting to improve it. And they were like, "Oh no, you don't." So out I went. I did get a divorce from my first husband. I am now partnered with my old high school boyfriend, my first sexual partner. Oh, we're back together. Oh, wow. Yes. and we've come back around full circle. That's nothing but lovely. Hey, I mean, I totally understand that. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's the happily ever after right there. that was the happily ever after.

12:53 Yeah. And I started working with folks interested in ethical non-monogamy way before I entered the realm myself pr-personally. Okay. So I would say for 15 years now I've been working with ethical non-monogamy folks, um, especially because a lot of people who do leave religion are interested in potentially exploring that space. Yeah. Um, for a lot of reasons we can talk about. But so I was working with a lot of these folks who were leaving religion, and then as I started exploring, deconstructing my own sexual shame, I was like, "I think I'd like to dabble in this as well." And my new partner is open and excited to join me on that journey. So that's my story- So this is- … in like a short- Yeah … a short- So- Hey, you did a great job … you did a great job.

13:36 Yes. So your f- your first, your now present husband or partner is… Was he in the religion as well with you? No. Oh, he wasn't? No. Okay. No. Okay. Yeah. So that is, yeah. Yeah, he w- he grew up, he's Mexican American. He grew up raised s- kinda like you. Yeah. Slightly Catholic. Loosely Catholic. Loosely Catholic. Yeah. Not taking it super seriously. Definitely didn't have the shame downloads that I did about sex. He's very sex positive. Was sex positive before we even called it that. Yeah. And, uh, was very open and, yeah, so in a way, reconnecting with him and having, you know, a really healthy, beautiful relationship, um, has been very healing to me, you know- Yeah to have a person who has such a different take.

14:23 Yeah. It is nice. He's my little, he's the one that that kinda helped me kinda guide through, you know, to accept myself and be more open. Um- It's ' cause I talk a lot, is what it is. he does. Right. You know- Right … there was a few things that popped up in your story that threw out some, some questions for me. The first one was initially when, when, before you got excommunicated, when you, uh, got in trouble, you know, with the university for your promiscuousness, Yes Did… i'm just curious My two, my two and a half partners Yeah. Well, so I'm just- Call it two and a half … I'm just curious on, on, for my own sake and did they do, like, an equal punishment for the person that you, uh, were with?

15:08 Or was it, did you, was it harder on you than it was on the other people? Like, is, was it an equal kind of punishment? Situation? Yeah. Yeah. I'll give Mormonism credit that they trend to be fairly equal. It's not like in some religions where, you know, women are t- are treated very differently- Yes in the standards- Yeah … than the men. And that was my next question. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I mean, nobody's supposed to have premarital sex. Yeah. Now- … that doesn't mean that there aren't gender differences, and Mormonism is still very patriarchal, so it's not a clean yes or no. But, um, the first, m- you know, my first confession involved a person who wasn't in the faith, so- Okay.

15:48 Right … there was nothing they could do to him, right? Yeah. And then my second scenario, he was in the faith, and we went together and confessed, and yes, he got reprimanded in the same ways I would have been as far as ecclesiastically, but he wasn't a student at BYU. Okay. So he didn't have that same- I gotcha you know- Yeah … I guess- Yeah … yeah, co- consequence that I did. But there are a lot of people who will tell me stories where they went in and confessed, you know, individually, but then they made them tell with who, and then they bring in- Oh … the other person, even though maybe that person wasn't interested in confessing or wasn't ready to confess or who knows what. No matter what. You know? So- Yeah. Oof. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that more I was, I was married, my first marriage I was 18, and he was Jehovah Witness, and I saw that, the excommunication and stuff, and very close, like in the family.

16:42 And I was flabbergasted because I was like, "What do you mean?" Like, the parents won't talk to them. They aren't allowed in the house. Or if they- Right … do, they can talk they just go in, do their thing. And I'm like, wow, these, these girls were youn- or my ex-sister-in-laws were young. They were, like, 14, 15, you know? And it's like, how can… You know, or even one was 18, and I'm like, how could you, like, not talk to them just because they did, they kissed a boy that wasn't in the religion or, or whatever. And I was- Yeah … wow, that just- Yeah … curiosity, right? I was a college student, and I was in the s- the Catholic seminary, and they straight up said, "Well, we don't want you to be, uh, different from anybody else.

17:27 You're gonna go to a coed college, and we want you to assimilate with everybody your age, but don't talk to women." Yeah. And I was like, "Well, what the hell?" Like, I can't not talk to women if you… i, I can't do both- Yeah … of those things at once. Right. Like, either I'm with everybody or I'm somebody who can't talk to women. Yeah. Like, I can't. Right. And I very much- Right … love women. Um- Yeah. And so that was a problem for me. Yeah. Like, I enjoyed talking to women, and I found them very sexually attractive. And I, like you, were, uh, one of those kids that started masturbating at a young age, and I have always- Mm-hmm … had a very high sex drive, to the point to where I thought something was wrong with me- … for so many years.

18:10 Mm-hmm. Right … you know, and you grow up being raised by the church, and you grow up thinking that this is not right. And even in our families, you know, our entire families, we all went to church every Sunday, that sort of thing, but cheating happened often. My father- Yeah … cheated on my mother for 30 some odd years. You know? Yeah. Cheating was running rampant, you know, amongst uncles and aunts and, and who knows who, and everybody knew about it. We didn't really talk about it, but everybody knew, and it was okay. But when we became non-monogamous, forget it. That was it. We were the- Oh, yeah … black sheep of the family. It, it's fascinating to me that we as a culture are 10 times fold more comfortable with infidelity- Yeah … than we are with ethical non-monogamy.

18:55 It's mind-blowing. Even now. Oh, my God. Like, I'll get hit up, and I'm like, "Does your wife know?" No." "Oh, yeah, no, I don't do that." That's unethical. Yeah. Come on, guys. Right. Now, do you see more, women that come to you, or are they couples, or is it mainly men? I feel like more women would be, because we feel like we kinda hold that guilt. I feel like we hold the guilt more than a male does. I remember- Yeah, I don't have any guilt about it … I remember when we first became s- ethical non-monogamists … yeah, it was maybe our second experience, something like that. Yeah, we had little- It was like the next day … yeah, we had little ones, right? So all of our kids were the same age.

19:35 We had like two four-year-olds and two toddlers. And we started taking them to church, because I was like, "We should really get involved in something." We were in the choir, so we decided, "Okay, let's start church." And so we started doing that, and I was getting… I've never been really religious, but I was getting there. And then I remember feeling such guilt for having had a play… We had a play session with another couple, and I remember feeling such guilt that I went h- when we got home, I was like, "This is morally wrong." She was balling. Like, "This is not right." Yeah. Like, "I'm gonna go to hell. I'm raising kids, and my kids are gonna… Like, what if they all find out? Like, what's gonna happen?" And I think we had like a really deep conversation, and then I was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm tired of kinda being in the closet.

20:25 I'm tired of, of hiding everything." Yeah, she went from one extreme to the next … I went from one extreme to the next. And then she ended up just coming out completely. We came out poly at that time. Yeah. Uh- I told my kids … this was a while back, but Yeah. We… And, and- And so- Yeah … I wonder, is it more women that you see this happen to, where they feel like they really need a you had that conversation with you Yeah, I mean, there are definitely themes that are gendered. We're socialized very differently, right- Mm-hmm … depending on whether or not we have a penis or a vagina. Yeah. I mean, from the clothes they put us in, right, as babies- Yeah, that's true … and stuff to mark, you know, these differences. But- The colors … but the shame, like really, I think it's probably more personality than gender necessarily.

21:06 Oh, okay. Like, I think people who trend to be more perfectionistic, who trend to be more anxious prone, who trend to be more people pleasers, those folks are probably gonna stru- struggle more- Mm-hmm … with feelings of guilt and shame than maybe people who are kinda like, fuck it. I'm outta here." Yeah. Yeah. You know, kind of the, the eye rolls. And I remember even as a leader in church, looking at all the adolescents in these big, like, meetings that we would have that, that are about sexual standards, right? So it's the big meeting, you know- Okay … for all the teenagers. Yeah. And I'd be looking at all of them as they're listening to the leaders, and some of them, you can just see them, they're taking notes.

21:48 They're like, their eyes are all kinda worried and scared. You know, they're like, you know, they're ta- And then others are on their phones or eye-rolling, you know. Yeah. They're like, "These people are full of, you know, ridiculousness." Yeah. Those kids are usually gonna be the healthier ones. I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah. Than the ones who- Yeah … are so wanting to do it all right, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, I was- But I do think- I was in the, the- Oh, go ahead. Yeah … well, I was in church as a youth, and I was involved in the choir and that sort of thing, and, and we were high school kids, and if there was anything that we knew was that the high school girls at, that were involved in church were easy. Easy. They were easy. You know? They were the easy ones. Yeah, I mean, I- Yeah … there was a lot of fooling around that was going on back then.

22:31 Yeah, yeah. You know? And- Yeah … um, it, that was always kinda the talk was, "Well, if y- if she's heavy into church, forget it." Like, that's… And that's what we were always told. Now obviously that's a dramaticism. A stereotype, right? Like it's, yeah- Yeah, sure. Mm-hmm … it's, it's really not the, I'm sure it's not the case, but, uh, I've seen it. You know? Well, I think church girls usually, one, are under-prepared to say no or to have boundaries. Mm. And so that sometimes- Oh, that is so true is the reason. That makes sense. And other times church girls have gotten really good at the loophole game. Like, "I will stay officially a virgin, but I will give you oral or anal or, you know- Ah … do all kinds of other things, but I can still s- feel good because I'm-" officially a virgin, however we conceptualize that as a culture.

23:16 Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so yeah, there's different reasons why that may be the case. I don't know that we have any clear statistics necessarily about religious adolescents being more or less sexually active than non-religious kids. But yeah, it's, it's, it's always super interesting. And g- and I guess circling back to the mom guilt thing, that is a s- you know, we are socialized as an overall culture that once you're a mom, you kind of lose your erotic component. Mm, Like, I'll never forget when Demi Moore, right, um, was on the, the magazine- Was it Ti- Time or People? Mm-hmm. Something like… I think it was People, yeah. She was naked. And she was pregnant. Right. And it was like the Madonna whore complex had come to the United States, you know?

24:00 It's like everybody had a fit. Yeah, no. You're sexualizing your unborn child, right? It's like once you become a mother, we are considered, in some ways, asexual. You know? It's like- Mm-hmm … you now are responsible. You are now supposed to dress appropriately and teach your children and be moral. Whereas, you know, the woman who doesn't have children, she can be more sexy or dress sexy, and that's not seen as such a big deal. So I do think there are differences between the messages women get- Mm-hmm … when they become parents versus the messages men get when they become parents. That's interesting.

24:40 That's very-- Yeah. Um, y- you know, when towards the end of your story, you had, had mentioned something that I, I kinda wanted to touch up on. You said that a lot of people that you see who have… or, are leaving the religion have expressed interest in, in non-monogamy. And I, you know, what we know is what we hear. You know, we- we've talked to a lot of people in the years that we've been in this and, and then the s- the television show, you know, it's, it's all over. I'm, I'm kinda curious, why is that? Can you connect those dots for us? Yeah. A- and again, I'm gonna speak in generalities. It's not gonna apply to everybody. But I do think a lot of people who come out of high-demand religions, purity culture especially if they were the good kids, more than likely they didn't have a lot of sexual exploration prior to marriage.

25:34 Oh. So they may have been with one person their whole life. They may feel now like they were sold a bill of goods, right? And that they were shamed and that their development was arrested, which is true. And so they're feeling a lot of FOMO, right? Like a lot of missing out, a lot of like unfairness about that. Sometimes due to those issues, they may have married somebody that wasn't super compatible in their sexual lives. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ' Cause you're not really allowed to test the waters. And we're kinda promised that as long as you're righteous and you get married and you stay a virgin, you'll be fine. Well, that's not what makes sex fine.

26:15 You know, marriage isn't what makes sex good or fine. And you don't have people with a lot of comprehensive sexual education going into these relationships, and they're typically getting married pretty young, like- … 19 to 22 in these more re- religious communities because they're avoiding having sex before marriage. Yeah. And so you can see that, you know, you're now you're 40, you're 50, you know, your kids are a little bit older. You're coming out of this religious haze. You're super pissed. You're feeling super, like robbed from a lot of normal human experiences and Whether you're happy or not in your current sex life, you might still want to experience something different.

26:56 Plus, I think for a lot of the women it's kind of a fuck you to patriarchy. It's like I don't want to be beholden to one man or one authority. I want to express my sexuality. I don't want to feel owned or like I belong to somebody, like territory, you know? And I think for a lot of the men who were shamed about masturbation, about pornography, about having fantasies, they're like, "I'm so tired of just being shamed. Like just, can I just be? Do I have to feel like a horrible, perverse person that objectifies women and is one step away from a pedophile because I like to look at porn every now and then," right? Which are, were the messages we really received, that this was so dangerous.

27:38 And so they're fed up, and they're going into their second adolescence, which is what we call midlife. Yeah. Which is already a developmental stage where we want to explore and not fall into the same old patterns we were in in our 30s. Usually our- Oh, yeah … kids are older by this time, so… And we're kinda getting that, that knowledge that we only have so much time left. Mm-hmm. And so, and by the time we're in our 70s and 80s, it gets a little harder to get around. So our 50s and 60s is kinda like our last chance to live the things we feel like we never got to live. Okay, real quick before we get back into it, we gotta talk about sdc.com Oh, yes.

28:19 Okay, so if you don't know SDC, it's basically the largest online community for open-minded adults Which if you're listening to this show right now, I feel like you probably already know if that's your scene. Yeah. It's your people all in one place. Just make a profile and go explore No weirdness, no judgment, just a ton of like-minded humans living their lives, just like us. Honestly, it's kinda fun just to poke around Yeah, it really is. Go sign up at sdc.com. Use code 38236. Link's in the show notes. Okay, now back to what we were saying. Yes So yeah, there's like the openness of emerging adulthood that The nesting of the 30s, which is when most people have their children, the openness again in mid-40s to I would say mid-60s, and then the closing again in elderly years when we want companionship, care, like stability to basically end our lives Wow.

29:18 Yeah. You know, I, I can't picture being actively non-monogamous when I'm elderly and, and, and in close to my deathbed. But, you know, she made it real clear that w- when she goes, I go. So- … there's no- We're dying together. There's no… She said "I don't even wanna put the dog through that." Like, I wouldn't wanna put another partner in and be like, "Hey, you know, I, sorry, I gotta go with her now." Like, she's dying, so I'm gonna die now. That's right. Okay. Uh, this- So you're Thelma and Louising this, right? That's right. That's- You're like, you're getting into a you're getting in the car and just- She basically said that I'm, I'm getting in the coffin with her- Yeah … apparently, and then we're just gonna go together. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's depressing for me, but I'm not thinking about that right now. Uh, right now- And I already told the kids, so they're good.

30:00 Right now, uh- … right now she lets me have sex with other, uh, women, and so I just, I'm just like, "Okay. I'll, I'll cross that bridge when we get there." There you go. Um- Yes … now, you know, I, I am curious about something that you know, I, I've always personally wondered about from… You know, 'cause I, I have my experiences, uh, with religion. Now, I, I am a very anxious person. I am a people pleaser, you know. I, I was, I, I was checking boxes while you were making those lists. But I don't, I don't have shame anymore, and there was… I, I did for a long time. And I am, uh, one of those people that I, I really look inward, uh, often, and I always have been. And so I felt shame for so many, so much of my high school years, my college years well into my first marriage.

30:48 And I was with my first wife for seven years. Well, when I, when I got out of that marriage is around the time that Pris and I started dating, maybe a month later or so. Like, it was very quick from one marriage to the other. And I made it real clear that I did not want to pursue another relationship like what I had, which was a very prudish relationship. We had sex maybe twice in seven years, and both of those produced a child. Um- Wow. Mm-hmm … and, and so sex was not really celebrated as a, a fun and enjoyable thing, which I very much viewed it. Um- Right … so I just kicked the masturbation off into high gear and, and, and did my thing, and I, I got through my seven years, you know what I mean?

31:31 Uh, like somebody who was in prison. Um, but when I got with Pris and we initially started talking about, what we wanted out of the relationship, I said, you know… The first thing out of her mouth was You're not one of those guys who wants sex all the time, are you? I just didn't- And she had such negativity about it I did not. And it wasn't the way I was raised or anything. I just, the men that I was with I was married to two different men, and the sex with them was okay. Like, I wasn't, I'm not a very hyper-sexual person. I masturbated a lot, but then that was even sh- my ex would shame me for that, you know?

32:12 So then I just decided not to… I just, I don't know. I didn't have that drive, and I really didn't get my drive until, like, menopause. Really. Oh, well, I don't know. I mean, and we've always been, we've always- I mean, you and I have- Yeah … really gone at it … we've always been good, but I meant, like, my, like a really good sexual drive. I think I'm in that now. So And, you know, I made it real clear to her. I said, "Y- I am one of those people who- Yeah … love sex all the time, and if that's an issue for you, then I don't think that this is gonna work," 'cause I just came out of a, a marriage that was like that. Mm-hmm. And if having sex every single day is not something that you're into, then this may not work. And so that was something that she overlooked.

32:53 And then she had sex with me and forget it, then she became, like, this- … total, uh, hot, you know… I have a very high sex drive. She manages to- Yeah … to keep up with me, which is very nice. Mm-hmm. And so that, all of that to say that that initial, "You're not one of those guys who likes to have sex a lot, are you?" That feeling that I had when I had to answer that was I felt "Shit, this is not gonna go well for me." Yeah. So when it comes to shame in, i- as it comes to people who are in the religion, is this pretty much like everybody that you see? Like, they're dealing with… I, I mean, it's… I would wonder, because that just seems like a prominent thing.

33:34 Yeah. I, I mean, I think sexual shame is a pretty common human experience, right? Mm. I mean, I'm never comfortable saying everyone, but I'm almost comfortable saying everyone, unless you're like a sociopath or something Yeah. … probably has a sexual shame story, you know? Um, and it's not just even religious. It's everything from how we look. I mean, just think of all the media messages we get about- Mm. Mm-hmm … how you're supposed to look sexual or act sexual or be sexual, um, whether or not you're queer at all, you know, at all. You know, we get super big downloads about how you're supposed to be hetero- heterosexual, you know?

34:15 And so, yes, I think the shame runs deep for a lot of different reasons, and religion has a lot of those reasons wrapped up in it as well, you know, with the value of you as a human being depending on- Mm-hmm … what's happened to your genitals, right? Is pretty problematic. So I think even to your point, you know, when you're telling your story, what's coming up for me is that, like, there's so much yes ands here, you know? I think in general, going back to gender socialization- Mm … if you're a woman, you are taught that men are out to get you sexually, right? And so if a- Yes … man, if all he wants is to have sex with you it's about now I'm being objectified, used, and, you know, he's entitled to my body.

35:02 Which right off the bat, if that's how you're approaching sex as a woman, you're more than likely gonna have desire issues. ' Cause desire isn't about pleasure or surrender or about your own drive. It's all about controlling why is this other person wanting access to my body, right? So that, that's very damaging. And then, um, men and high-drive people, 'cause the women who are high drive, they're like, "Boy, I must be really fucked up," 'cause they're just talking to the men about this. So they're obviously the problem, but I'm a problem too, but they're not even talking to my group about this. Yeah. So I must be really sick. And we actually had a word for this back in the day, right?

35:44 It was, um… Oh, what's the word? Am I gonna remember it now? The word where women who were very high drive. It's, um… Gosh, I can't believe I can't think of it. I'm gonna blame my perimenopausal brain on this, but- There you go. It's basically like you're a nymph- the nymphomaniac. Oh, okay. Yeah. Nymphomania. Do you think men were diagnosed as nymphomaniacs? Oh, no. No. No, it was just women. Women were. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so men get this download that, well, of course you're sexual. You know, women are getting the download of like, "You're not sexual, you're, you're sexually wanted." Men are like- Mm … "You're sexual. Just make sure you're nice about it," right? At least that's a more modern message that we're getting.

36:24 Yeah. Back in the day, you could just own a wife, you know? Yeah. Then you didn't, nobody cared if you were nice about it. But so this idea, this question, like how important is sex to you, especially as we're dating and getting to know each other, is full of laden messages, right? Of what does it mean? What does, what, and also the acknowledgement too that our drives don't stay the same as human beings. Yeah. You can start off high drive. Have a few health issues along the way, age, whatever things, and now you're low drive. Or like you, Pris, right? You're, you kinda start out low drive, and then you hit- Yeah some hormonal shifts or some freedom or some reframes, and now you're higher drive.

37:05 That's it. I think it was a podcast. So there's no like… Yeah, there's no guarantee that we're gonna stay on the same drive, boat. Yeah. And I think what women are saying, when they're asking that is- Are you going to feel entitled to my body? Is this relationship gonna center your sexuality over mine? And that is a real problem we have, right? Not because men are awful people and, um, but it's just how we're socialized, right? That I think women are socialized more to accommodate and to be nice and to be kind, and men are socialized to be honest and get what they want. And so they think they're coming to a negotiation table that a woman isn't quite coming to in the same way a man is coming to.

37:49 And we still have a lot of male-centric sexuality happening. Yeah. Um, we still have an orgasm gap. We still have, women tend to accommodate more men. Women are offering oral sex at high- much higher numbers than men are offering oral sex to women in heterosexual relationships. That's a good point. So there are issues there. It's not just- Yeah … you know, but I think for a man being asked that question, it feels like, great, now I'm just pigeonholed again, that if I say I really like sex, I'm gonna be seen as that jerky guy who only cares about, you know- Yeah … ejaculating in your vagina. 'Cause that's pretty much what my thought was.

38:31 Like, damn, really? I have to, now I'm gonna have to always give it up. Really? Is there anything- Yeah … more to me? Um- Yeah … and I think that's exactly what probably was going through my mind when and then she used me like a piece of furniture, man, let me tell you. Ah. You know, but I got no complaints. Right. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, right. I'm okay with this. I feel fine about it. I don't need a support group for that. I'm good. Um- That's right. Now, I am curious. Y- so I, I get this question in our inboxes in social media, everywhere. I've gotten it a few times. Here in, in the central Texas area, there's a lot of people who are very rooted in their religion.

39:13 A lot, a lot more Catholics than anything else. But I get the same question a few times, which is they're very interested in swinging and exploring this- Mm-hmm sexual openness as a couple. They're both very on the same page about it and this and that. But they're very much afraid of How to do so, how it's gonna affect them because they are very much in their religious community. Mm. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it, it's like I've been asked very specifically, "How am I supposed to balance my faith and my worship to God and this sexual wants and desires that we have?

39:58 Like, I just, I don't see how we can, get this all on the same page." What would you say to, to somebody who's basically throwing that out there? And you're talking specifically about people who still want to engage in their faith community- Correct … who are not interested- Mm-hmm … in leaving their church. Right. Yeah. Yeah … love their religion. Right … love their community, and they want to have both, but they can't seem to make it work in their selves. Yeah. Inside, yeah, 'cause you've got some very conflicting principles. Yeah. Right. And a lot of times one of the big principles in religion is honesty, you know, you have to be honest. Mm-hmm. You have to confess, you have to tell us everything you're doing.

40:39 Um, but another principle you might have is privacy. Like, do I get to have a private life or not? Now, in my church, quite frankly, the answer would be no, you don't get to. Mm-hmm. But there are plenty of Mormons who still are taking that internal authority back and are saying, "Well, even though that's the position of the clergy and the church, I'm gonna decide something different for myself." So it does, uh, it does require an ability to be creative within your own interpretation of whatever your sense of, you know, the doctrine is. Sure. And this is harder for people who are more rigid, more black and white thinkers.

41:21 It's like they can't hold two realities, you know- Right … one time. So even, like, thinking of some of my gay clients, for example, I can think of, um, a gay client who left the church even though he still believed in it wholeheartedly. But he left it because he knew he was gonna have gay experiences, which is not allowed by the church, right? Mm-hmm. Then I've got the gay person who's like, "Well, I'm gonna marry the woman, so I'm gonna go the full route that the, I'm gonna do exactly what the church wants me to do, and I'm gonna still believe it, and we're gonna deal with the issues that come with a mixed orientation marriage." Then you've got the gay person who's like- Seen that a lot. Right. Then we're gonna have the gay person who's "I'm still, you know, I'm out because I think you guys are all fucked up.

42:05 You fucked me up. I'm super pissed. You guys were not affirming." So they leave both behaviorally and belief-wise. And then there's the people who are like, "I'm not a traditional believer, and there's no room in this church for me to not be a traditional believer, so I'm gonna keep that to myself. That's gonna be private." " I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a relationship with my God, with my scriptures, with my beliefs, and I'm going to still enjoy the community, not from a space of thinking that I'm being dishonest, but just knowing that they're not safe enough for me to be completely honest." And so they're able to hold that tension between their belief system, their community, and they can feel good with their God in their ways of living their life.

42:54 Right. So that, that does take an ability to go from external authority, "I'm gonna let everybody else tell me how I should live my life"- To internal authority. I still find value in this belief system. There's still things here I hold dear and true, and there's parts that I don't really totally believe or that I think they have wrong or they're not gonna really fully accept me and I'm not willing to pay that high cost. Mm. So I will keep this private. So there's all different kinds of ways, right? Yeah. To try to navigate something like that. Yeah. Well, you know, Pris, when she, she came out as bisexual we knew right off the bat, like we went… I think we went to church once or twice after that.

43:35 Uh- I know … and she was like, I can't be here. Knowing where the stance is and this and that, like, I can't be here. And I was like, "Thank you." 'Cause I didn't wanna go- Yeah. … to begin with. Like I left- I didn't wanna be there When I, when I left the seminary, I was done with the religion. I, I walked away- Yeah … and I said, you know, there's nothing that, that kind of ruins you a- as far as your eyes towards a religion more than being groomed to be a leader in it. And so when you start getting positioned to be a leader in a religion, you start seeing some pretty foul stuff. You start seeing things that- … Most of the people in the congregation don't see. Mm-hmm, yeah. And if they do see, they turn a blind eye to, and it's like, yeah, I don't like that.

44:17 Yeah. And, uh, you know, I was one who asked a lot of questions, and I like to study other religions because to me, it's like we're all human beings, and that wasn't accepted very well, uh, either. Right. You know? Right. And, uh, by the people at the seminary. And so, you know, it was just one of those things where I said, "I'm gone. I'm done. I don't wanna do this." And when she had expressed, "Well, we have kids now, and, this is right," blah, blah, blah, and I said, "I'll do it because you want to do it, but-" Yeah … " know that I'm going begrudgingly." Yeah. Um- Right … so when she came out as bisexual, and then she said two weeks later, she's like, "I can't go to church anymore," Mm I was like, "Okay, cool." And I did lose a lot of family in that.

44:58 Yeah. So I have a, a one part- Yes … that's very Christian, I found Jesus- … again type of thing, and then I have the other part that's not really religious in that way, but it's just like, "Mm, nah, you like girls, not gonna happen." Like it's- Mm-hmm we just won't accept that. But yeah. Even now, like, just going back real quick, you had s- like we were talking about being young and not knowing like your… Like you weren't able to be open and whatnot, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I still… I'm not very… I'm, we're not religious, but I do express to my children, like you don't have to You don't have to save yourself.

45:38 You don't … you should try out whatever you wanna try out and- Yeah … do what you wanna do. Be free about it. Be careful, but be open, be free, and enjoy life because I do, we do share some kids and my biological children, their father is very religious in a sense. Mm-hmm … and they're both bisexual children, but have never come out to their dad, but have come out to us. Mm-hmm. And we really try to raise them in that kind of way, where it's more open-minded and not, not so religious. Like, even we don't… E- even because we don't practice it, it's still out there.

46:19 Like, there's still- Yeah … people, you know, there's still other friends, "Oh, you should, you should really, like, stay a virgin," or, "You really shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that." And so, like, I'm always in my kids' ears and I'm like, "You can do whatever you want. Like, we're your parent. Like, we are here for you." Mm-hmm. "But just be safe about it and enjoy life." Yeah, we try to be the parents that we didn't have- Yeah … growing up … because we don't, you know, we don't… We know social media's out there and we know that, religion-ish type of stuff is going to seep in because there's still a lot of closed-minded people out there. Yeah. I mean- Yeah … unfortunately, there really is. Well, you know, non-monogamy has really taken more of a mainstay since, uh, COVID.

47:01 People were on lockdown- People got bored. … for a whole year, and they explored, uh, different podcasts and content- Yeah … creators and that sort of thing, and it really pushed- Yeah swinging and polyamory to the forefront. And people are accepting more of it now, uh, than previous to that time. So that, I think, is a positive. Uh, we have this show because we wanted to normalize discussions about sex, discussions about non-monogamy, discussions about wants and desires. And, and we're… it's a show about us and what we go through day to day. And we're a real couple that we have to maneuver through this stuff- Mm-hmm … and navigate it, and it can be- Right … exhausting mentally.

47:49 But we do it and so our listeners get to hear our conversations on this show. And it's helpful because then they know, "Hey, you know, it is okay to talk to my spouse and tell them that I'm feeling this way." Like, "I should be okay. Adam did it with his wife, and they were recording." You know what I mean? It's like, yeah. Right, right. And I survived. I didn't get a black eye- Yeah … or anything. Like, I'm okay. Yeah. It didn't hurt at all, you know? Yeah. We've had shows where she was crying, you know, that sort of thing- Mm-hmm because it was just a heavy- Mm-hmm … heavy kind of topic. Um- Sure. You're being vulnerable. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And- And real. And it is. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's one of those things where we've always said communication is everything.

48:33 As a sex therapist, how much of- advice you give revolves around communication. Oh, like so much of it. Yeah. So much of it. Yeah. I run a seven-week group for people who are going from monogamy to non-monogamy. Oh, wow. And it's so interesting to hear them. Every single time I get this, it's like these are all things that would've helped our monogamous relationship, right? These are not, like, non-monogamy specific. It's not like we don't deal with jealousy when we're monogamous. It's not like we don't deal with agreements when we're n- monogamous. It doesn't- … Mean that we're not dealing with different preferences and drives and desires and fantasies when we're monogamous, and those are all the same things that we're dealing with in non-monogamy, right?

49:20 Yeah. And so as I'm walking them through kinda like, here's a roadmap," right? "That you can try to think through things as you're entering this new relationship structure," that- that's the feedback I get the most. Um… Yeah. And I loved your, you know, your thoughts about offering your kids something different, right? It's like that's such a sex positive approach to parenting. It's not like you should or you shouldn't have sex. Mm-hmm. It's like, here's the options, right? And here's- positives and risks and benefits to all these different options, right? Yeah. Um, and letting them know that there are safe ways to go about it. I mean, the, the classic messages we got in religious circles in particular, and it's going around again.

50:06 I don't know what this backfire effect is, but we are, you know, our young people, instead of going ahead of us, they're, like, becoming trad wives and- Yeah … they're now caring about body count, you know? And I'm like- Yeah … "Oh my gosh, I haven't heard that term in, like, 20 years," and now it's all over- Yeah. … the, you know, the internet again. Yeah. And so it's just, But this idea that somehow if you, if you explore with your body… We don't do this with any other thing, right? With careers and college, we're like, "Go try a few things out. Don't make the decision right away." Yeah. You know, "You'll find what works for you, but you've gotta, like, you know, go down this path, and if you don't like it- Uh-huh … there's these other paths you can go down." Uh-huh. But with sex, it's like, "Ooh, if you explore, you're gonna ruin yourself."

50:50 " You're gonna ruin your ability to bond with other people. You're gonna ruin the ability to have erections and good sex if you masturbate too much." I mean, like, none of this has any evidence-backed research to support it, but we have this real fear of using our bodies as an experiment. Mm-hmm. And cycling back to shame, I think this was what a big part of my personal work, especially as I was going into ENM spaces, is this idea that What if I have a regret? In religious land, having a sexual regret means I might not make it to heaven. That's a pretty high cost, right?

51:31 But now I can be like, "You know what? Having a regret is not the end of the world." Yeah. I might have a regret. I now gathered more information for myself. Yeah some data that helps me make decisions similarly or differently the next time I want to explore my body, right? And so having these kinds of ways to reframe things is what's so powerful about potentially sitting with a sex-affirming, you know, non-monogamy affirming professional who can help you sort out all these weird messages that are going through our systems. Natasha, you are… I could listen to you all day, I'm not gonna lie. This conversation has been absolutely incredible. I think a lot of our listeners are gonna hear pieces of their own story probably- Mm-hmm … in the stuff that was shared today.

52:16 For sure. But before we start to wrap up, before we let you go you have a book coming out, don't you? Yeah. Well, yeah. Are you working on a book, yeah? Plug in your stuff, girl. I'm so excited. Tell us about it, please. All right, let me tell you all my cool things. So yes- Okay … I do have a book. It's kind of memoir/self-help book. Hopefully people will read it like that, about my story, and it's ho- uh, the tentative title is Sex Communicated, right? Like… Uh-huh. I made that up. Okay. I'm like, I'm gonna claim that right back." Yes. I also, um, here, if you're ever in Salt Lake City, Utah, we have a fabulous new space. Um, a lot of people call it a sex club, but it's actually a spiritual community because it's organized as a religion.

53:00 I actually know what you're talking about, yes. It's called The Sanctuary- I've heard of it … Salt Lake City. Oh. We've been in- Our friends were just there. Yeah, we've been, uh, invited- to it a couple times. We just, uh, we wanna go out there. We haven't made the chance yet, but. Yeah, well, come out and visit us. Okay. And it is a beautiful space and, you know, people can have their belief system explored in the space where instead of the purity culture, we're like, "Sexuality is connective. Sexuality is to be explored. Sexuality is to have healthy principles," you know, that can enlighten people's lives and things of that nature. So I'm on the board for The Sanctuary, and I teach some classes there, so by all means. Awesome. Then if you go to natashahalford.com, which is my website I've also partnered with a cruise called Fantasy, and they do a lifestyle cruise.

53:46 Mm-hmm. And we're having another one in February um, and I'll be teaching classes on the cruise. They're more experiential, so hopefully a little more sexy than just listening to me lecture. And, um, and then, uh, and then this seven-week group that I do as well. So everything that I offer, or if you wanna work with me personally as well, 'cause I still see clients, you know, and have space every now and then for a few clients to come work with me, you can find on my website. That's frigging awesome. Natasha, thank you so much for- We're gonna be there Okay. … generous with your story. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah. I enjoyed every minute. This was a really good show. Yeah. We're gonna have, uh- Thank you … all those links, uh, to everything in our show notes.

54:27 Mm-hmm. So everybody go give her a follow and check out her work. Thank you. And hey, if tonight's episode brought something up for you, something that you maybe you've been sitting on or something you just wanna- Mm-hmm … vent, rant, or share your own story anonymously, head to beyond-monogamy.com and leave us a 100% anonymous confessional. We read every single one of those. You can tell us anything that you need to get off your chest. Uh, and you know, as long as you say it's okay, we will talk about it on a future episode. And if you can't get enough of us, you want more, remember, we are on Full Swap Radio live every Thursday at 2:00 PM and 7:00 PM Central. So head on over there. That's right, fullswapradio.com.

55:08 Don't forget it. And with that, we thank you all for joining us for another episode, and we will see you guys next week. Bye.