Polyamory Meets Swinging: Multiamory's Dedeker, Jase & Emily On Unicorn Hunters, Jealousy & Where ENM Communities Collide

0:07 All right, y'all. Before we dive in, a quick heads up This show is raw, real, and definitely not rated PG. We're talking about adult themes, sexual content, and the kinda stuff you probably don't want blasting through your speakers at work or around your kids. So grab some headphones, pour your drink of choice, and get comfy. Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not licensed therapists, counselors, or sex couches. Sex coaches. Sex coaches. Not sex couches. We're just a couple of people sharing our lives, experiences, and sexy adventures in ethical non-monogamy. So with that, pull up a chair and enjoy the show.

0:50 Hello, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Monogamy. I'm Adam. And I'm Pris. And today we have a guest episode that honestly I wish existed about 10 years ago, because Pris and I did the poly thing from about 2016 to 2021, and I'm gonna be straight with you, we were flying blind. We couldn't find good resources to save our lives, and the poly Facebook groups, forget it. Don't even get me started. Oh, yeah. Don't. Yeah. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. You'd ask a genuine question, like a real honest question because you're trying to figure something out, and half the group would just come at you like you were an idiot. "Just Google it." Cool, man. Super helpful.

1:31 Thank you. It was very discouraging. Like, we were just trying to learn, and nobody was there to help us. That's it- Yeah … man. That's exactly why today's guests matter, because this is what we needed back then and didn't have, although the show did exist back then, we didn't realize it. Mm-hmm. Our guests today have been putting out real, no judgment, actually useful content about non-monogamy for over a decade, and I genuinely think if we had found them back in 2016, some of those years would've looked a lot different But hey, better late than never, right? Before we get into it, though, if you're new here, welcome. Hit subscribe wherever you're listening so you never, ever miss an episode, 'cause you're gonna love us.

2:13 And if you've been rocking with us for a while, you know the deal. Leave us a review, share the show with someone who needs it. It costs you nothing, and it means the world to us. That's right. Okay. So with that, we're gonna go ahead and bring them in from Multiamory Podcast, Dedeker, Jase, and Emily. Welcome to the show, y'all. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you. I think that might be my favorite way that we've ever been introduced. That was really fun. Really? I'm telling you, he is a hype man. You know- I try. I like to build everybody up, but I didn't really have to try too hard because, uh, you guys, y'all, y'all came with a reputation. Yeah. A good one. We should, we should get you on our show to just record our intro every single time. There you go.

2:53 There you go. And play it back before every single episode. And it's funny because everybody seems to like my voice, but my voice is of my nightmares. Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna hear it. Ooh. I'd rather hear y'all's voices. Isn't that the way it goes with your own voice, though? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think so. I don't think anybody likes their own voice, although she, she disagrees. I'm like, I like my voice. She says, she says that I like to hear myself talk. That's great. He likes it. Yeah, no, he loves his voice. I don't think so. I don't think so. Anyways, I wanna start somewhere that I think is a lot more fun than the usual intro stuff. Okay. So I was thinking if, if you three, if y'all could find some sort of order to tell us how the three of you actually came together, and how y'all came to this podcast, how y'all ended up with Multiamory.

3:39 Yeah. So back many, many moons ago, all three of us were living in Los Angeles and did not know each other yet. But Jase and I… Well, actually all three of us were in the arts. We all were actors, performers, those types. I think generally you move to Los Angeles to become one of those things. I-- And so Jase and I met actually doing a musical together in 2010, and one thing led to another. It was a showmance, and then it was a romance, and then we ended up living together for a couple years monogamously. Mm-hmm. I-- After some time, we realized, okay, maybe we want to open up, kind of see what else is out there, because I was very young at the time.

4:22 You know, both of us. Jase, I think, had dabbled in non-monogamy before. You at least had, like, heard about it and were interested in it. Kind of. I had- Yeah … in college, I had heard about The Ethical Slut because I saw it at a bookstore. Of course. Yeah. Like you do. Um, and but my, my sort of recovering Christian brain couldn't handle it at the time. And so at that time, I was kind of unpacking some of my hang-ups with, like, jealousy and possessiveness and things like that, and I do think I made some good progress back then. But at the time, it was kind of more of like a, "Oh, we can flirt with other people and maybe have a threesome sometimes or, or group stuff or whatever."

5:05 Mm-hmm. But that was many relationships ago. That was several years before meeting Emily, and since then it had kind of been like, "Well, sure, that's a cool idea, but no one can actually do that," so Oh, well. Here we are. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but then we actually did. We started dating other people. I met somebody on OkCupid, uh, and then that person's partner started dating Jase, and that person's partner was Dedeker. Uh, Dedeker had already been in her non-monogamous journey for quite a while. Uh, she I think was- Like a couple years at that point … a couple years ahead of us. Yes. She was a couple years ahead of us- Oh, wow … which was great because then we had somebody who was a little bit more in the know who actually, like, could tell us, okay, what are the good and bad things about what it is that we're doing, I was gonna say that because you were a couple years ahead of us in your non-monogamous journey, at times I felt like, okay, we have somebody in the know.

5:59 We have somebody who's, like, a little bit more seasoned, more of a veteran at this who can help us out maybe a touch. Although, I don't know, I think we did pretty well, like, in those early years when we were all kind of like a quad, when it was me and Dedeker dating the same person. Both of us were in with Jase, and then Dedeker and I were also together after a time. We, we kind of became this, like, fearsome foursome, and it was going great for a while. I think there was some of that zen beginner's mind where you don't know- Mm … what you don't know. Yeah. And maybe some beginner's luck as well- Yeah in the way, in the times when it was going well. But yeah, we learned a lot of hard lessons. Like, we learned that quads tend to be pretty unstable as it is.

6:41 they said that you, you had two years ahead of them, so- Mm-hmm. Yes … were you single in that journey the two years before, or were you, um- Yeah … already in a relationship? Uh, y- both. Yes. Both. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Like, I, like, I, my, you know, my, my introduction to non-monogamy, like, I opened up a monogamous relationship, uh, with someone that I'd been with for, like, about three years or so, and it imploded within six months because we were in our early 20s. I was brand new to all of this. He was brand new to all of this. But for me, the important thing was that, like, even after that relationship imploded, I still had this sense of, like, I still wanna do this. Like, I didn't have that sense of like, ooh, failed experiment, time to retreat back to monogamy.

7:23 I really had this deep sense of this feels really right for me, but now I need to figure out how to do it, how to actually do it, how to do it correctly, right? Mm-hmm. So that sort of set me on that particular journey. Um- Okay … and then, yeah, it was this sort of funny thing that, like, my partner at the time met Emily on OkCupid, and this was even before OkCupid was an app. This was still back when it was dating sites instead of dating apps. Oh, wow. Uh, you know, my partner- Goodness met Emily, and I think it was Emily who even suggested that, like, I might get along with her partner, Jase, and so Jase and I connected, and so eventually the four of us, yeah, became, like, this little quad and, um, thought that we were hot shit- … and thought that we had- Oh, yeah … figured out- We felt like hot shit relationships.

8:04 We felt like hot shit. And to be fair, in LA, it's like we'd roll up to parties, and people would be, like, I think so impressed or bowled over- I mean, I would- … or scandalized … you know? Yeah. And I think because we felt like we were such hot shit, and because Jase was a big podcast fan, Jase was like, "We should record a podcast," you know? And, and so, um- Yeah, the fourth member of our quad, like my, my former partner, like didn't wanna get involved with the podcast, so it was just the three of us. And around the time that we started the podcast was when shit started to hit the fan and things started to fall apart within the quad. Um- In a really big way. Yeah … in a big way. And, and yeah, like i- it's a bit of a stereotype, but, but quads do tend to be unstable from what we've found.

8:45 But sort of the miraculous thing was, I mean, 'cause like I broke up with my partner and Jason and Emily broke up. But, but like the weird thing that most people don't believe is that even through all of the drama, like we ke- we kept recording the podcast. Yeah. Like we just kinda kept showing up each- Yeah … time and, and that includes even times where it's like one of us would be crying, but then like still show up and, and record the show. And- For a while we would usually cry after recording the episode. Like we- Oh, some crying after also. Yeah. We'd have it together- Yeah … during it, and then- I would cry fairly often during too. Mm-hmm. I mean, therapeutic, y'all kind of had to… I mean, were y'all discussing your journey from- Well, no.

9:26 And I think that's- I mean, I heard some of them and I was like, I didn't… I think that's an important piece. Yeah, we're not using the podcast as therapy. Right. Okay. And that was something that from early on, not really intentionally, but just what we gravitated toward, was doing a show that was not about our own personal lives- Yes. Yeah … but was about sort of the concepts more broadly. Right. And I think that's what saved us, right? I think if the show were about our journey and we were trying to process that in real time, it… that just would've been too hard. We would've said, "This sucks. We're, we're done." Yeah. Uh, but I think because we were talking about these concepts more generally, it actually was helpful for us to kinda be talking about how do you deal with challenges?

10:06 How do you communicate better? Uh, you know, and again, we're still relatively newbies, even if we'd been doing it for, you know, one- Yeah … to three years at that point. Like, we're still, relatively speaking looking back, very newbie. Yeah. Uh- Mm-hmm … and a lot of our friends were also in that within their first couple years range, right? And so that was sort of where the podcast started. And then I think later is when we moved to doing more, like bringing in research studies and trying to make more of a, like actual evidence-based research backed show. But at the time, it was kinda more based on just the community- Vibes … wisdom and the vibes and what we'd learned ourselves. Mm-hmm.

10:47 Now, would you say that maybe y'all kind of healed through the podcast as you went along- I think- … and you learned more about, what this is? Like even without discussing it in the podcast, you know, just- Mm-hmm … listening Thinking about things- And thinking, in a different- Yeah perspective minus the emotion of what you're dealing with. Did that help heal you guys at all, in that process? I think it was absolutely beneficial for us to maintain, our friendship with one another for sure, and also allowed us to have, kind of coping mechanisms to help us through the difficult challenges because we were learning about a lot of things.

11:28 We were, making decisions to stick with the show and to make sure that that was a priority. And because of that, I think our friendship and our commitment to one another also became a priority as well. And we sort of moved through the, challenges of the breakup. Uh, Jase and Detiker were still together, and they are still together now, but my breakup with the two of them and my breakup with my other partner as well, and I think all of that just helped us grow and helped us mature and helped us kind of move past it in a really beautiful way, uh, to what we are now. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. Carrie Jenkins, who is a philosopher and, and an author, we've had her on our show a couple times.

12:12 She, in her most recent book, uh, she's a philosopher, but she also, she's non-monogamous herself, and so she sometimes writes about those themes. But she talks about this concept, she calls it, like, eudaimonic love or eudaimonic purpose, um, in contrast to hedonic love or hedonic purpose, which is, you know, which is kind of based around what I think what we think of, like, romantic love, right? Where it's just kind of like- Mm-hmm … you know, pleasurable and nice and warm and fuzzy and stuff like that. And she's talking about eudaimonic love kind of being this love that centers around, like, a shared purpose, right? Mm. And so that can, can be something like co-parenting with somebody, or it could be something like a creative project that you share with somebody.

12:53 And sometimes the way that I describe the relationship now between the three of us is that we're, like, this emotional triad co-parenting a podcast baby together, you know? Um, and, and yeah, I, I do 100% think that… I mean, I've, I've seen this play out in my own personal relationships constantly, that, like, when you get on every single week and, like, read about the latest relationship research and about healthy communication practice, like, it's not always easy to apply, but it, but those things do seep in, right? Like, I, I do think- Right … all of my romantic relationships have directly- Yeah … benefited because it keeps it all top of mind and it prompts those conversations after you're done recording, right? Of like- 100% … what did you think about this? Or I think I see myself in this particular pattern, right?

13:36 It keeps that channel very open, which is very, uh, nurturing for friendships and romantic partnership. That's, that's, that's very true. From where we started, we've been in the lifestyle for 15 years. And I was in it actually before that. But our relationship is the longest we've ever been in, like period, in our lives. And I remember kind of thinking, "Oh, I don't know if I wanna do this. I don't know if I wanna, open up the relationship." But as we did, I had my ups and downs. The podcast has definitely helped me with the people that we get to talk to, you know? But our show is specifically our relationship.

14:19 Yeah. Um, people who listen to our show, yeah, they'll, they'll listen to a guest on a Sunday show, talk about ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, swinging, whatever the topic may be. But our Wednesday shows are strictly just us, and it's our relationship. It's what we've been through. It's the, the- Yeah … jealousies that we've experienced. It's the fights that we've had. Um, there's been moments of heated passion on the show, where tears are being shed because- Mm … either revelations have come about or- Mm you know, we're just rehashing things that- Yeah … were kinda old wounds, you know?

14:59 But it's a real couple having real conversations. I mean, I, I used to say I despise being poly. I'll never do it again. Like, I don't, I don't want… I will never, I can't do that. I'm too jealous. And I'm like, "Bummer, bro." I'm too- I'm too territorial, you know? Um, and then just recently I was like, I'm, I don't wanna put a label on it, but I am so up for that. I'm up for having my own little journey, figuring it out. But you know, I'm still married. Which, and that's incredible because She said I've always been six steps ahead of her. He is poly. Um, and- Like, I'm the reason he's, like, nope. I, I've been like this since I was in high school, and I just didn't know that there was a name for it.

15:41 Yeah. Uh, so when I finally figured that out, it was like, "Oh, really?" Like, I'm, I'm here now, you know, um, but where we're really rooted is we, we got started in swinging. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's- To realize that ethical non-monogamy is the umbrella for something as open sexually but also open romantically and, and just all of this area in between. I realize that a lot of people who are under that umbrella don't even know the right terms. Mm. And they don't even know exactly what they are or what kind of label they wanna slap on themselves, and things get kinda confusing and it gets a little weird.

16:22 Uh, so it's always nice to talk to, others like yourselves who can help clear these things up. Yeah. Um, and, and actually that kinda leads me into our first question um, because I, I was real interested, you, you guys are, are, are pretty poly-heavy and, and we're pretty swing-heavy. And the intersection of the two, I think, mm. It's very thick. Um, especially what we see on this end over here. So poly and swinging, same umbrella, really different vibes a lot of the time. Where do you see them actually overlap, and where do you see them go their separate ways? Ooh, that's a great question. Boy. That's a great question, and it's something that we definitely have talked about a fair amount.

17:05 And any time, of course, we're on a show that's more swinging focused or we have guests on our show that are more focused on that. What's interesting for us to see over the 12-ish years that we've been doing our show now is how the walls between those two communities, I feel like have come down quite a bit. Where when we started off, it was very much like we're a polyamory podcast and, you know, we, we know swingers and we'll tolerate them, but like they're not as, you know, elevated as us. And then swingers on the other hand are like, "Yeah, yeah, these dumb kids and their polyamory thing." "Like they don't know how to have real relationships yet, so like they can mess around like this for now."

17:45 And you know, there was a little bit of that divide that I feel like- Yeah … permeated both communities more. And I like to think our show has been part of bringing that down a little bit, 'cause I-- what I think I notice is that on the polyamory side People often start from this place of this kind of utopic vision of, you know, love is infinite. You know, we can have these deep relationships with all sorts of people, and that whether they have sex or not, and, you know, we're inclusive of people who are asexual or demisexual, all these things, this is, this is great, and that's where we're starting from. And then over time, I feel like they start to learn, wow, maybe some of these distinctions aren't such a big deal, and, you know, maybe we can have more casual sexual relationships as well.

18:35 Like, I feel like often poly people start off not doing as much of that. Yeah. Uh, and more being focused on the, the committed relationships, and then eventually realize, like, oh, no, actually casual sex is also valuable and good, and that's great. And then I think on the swinging side, what we see is people who start off very much like, we have our one relationship, and then we put up various rules and guardrails to prevent the other ones from, you know, infecting that or taking away from it or something. And then over time, they start to realize, actually, yeah, like relationships are relationships, whether, you know, whatever we call them or however they go, like we can't help but connect to other people 'cause we're human beings. And so then as they get more experience, they start to drop some of their guard about that, and that's where I feel like the two start to meet a little bit more in the middle.

19:23 Yeah, I mean, I- Yeah … I do agree. They did, um… it is better now, than it was 12 years ago, you know. Mm-hmm. And I say recently, maybe about five years ago, I started noticing that it was more in our community, a little poly here, a little poly there. Mm-hmm. And so with that, um, it's kind of, it's kind of opened my eyes, you know, kind of let my guard down a little bit because I see these relationships and I see these people and I'm like, "Wow, okay." And he laughs because I was always like, "Nope, we are not." She's the center. So between the two of us, I, I love everybody and I get along with everybody. But I'm also trusting of everybody, which, uh, obviously is a horrible, horrible thing.

20:07 Mm. Uh, and she's my balance. Uh, and she doesn't trust anybody. She thinks everybody's- out to hurt us in some way or another. And, we definitely balance each other out. So when-- That's why I, I had to laugh when she said she, she lets her guard down a little bit. No, she doesn't. Not at all. I'm, I'm trying. That doesn't happen. I am trying. I'm, I'm a little, I'm a very-- I'm, I'm a controlling person. It's, it's-- And I don't know. It's something that I'm controlling. I'm trying to be controlling on, on everybody that I… It's in my family, like my kids and everything, you know? I try to not be, but it's- But she's come a long way. And, and you know- It's okay. I, as the res- Yeah … I think as the most controlling of the three of us, I'm like, " Yes." But all three of us are.

20:48 Yes. Yes. Power. I, that's what I was about to say- Yes, power to you … is that like all three of us are also sort of control freaks, too. Yeah. And I think the further you get in your journey of non-monogamy, like whatever shape that takes, you realize that a lot of this is about, like foregoing that control and getting rid of it and allowing like other things to happen that you can't control, like feelings and like getting to know somebody better and having them be a larger part of your life. And I can imagine, you know, I'm not 100% sure because I'm not in the lifestyle, but- Mm … that people who come back to each other over and over again within the swinging community, couples who come back to each other over and over again, you have to create some sort of relationship with them, and they may become more and more important to you over time.

21:38 So, uh, I see with you, Pris, like, you know, uh, just a cycle of maybe right now you're perhaps dabbling in the thought of non-monogamy, and maybe at some point in your life you will be interested in that again. Yeah. And it can ebb and flow over time. It doesn't have to be static, you know? Yeah. I, um, the swinging part, I've always told them, I was like, "You know, the sex part is fine. It's doesn't, um, that doesn't bother me. It's the relationship part. It's the emotional part." Um- And for me, I can't- Yeah … have sex with somebody- Mm-hmm … if I don't have a connection with them. And I get that now. And that, that was the tough part. So something I've been thinking about a lot recently is something that Dan Savage said once upon a time, and I'm gonna misquote him.

22:20 I, I'll paraphrase it, that something along the lines of how- There's an inherent chaotic, out of control nature to sex and romance. And through all of human history, we've been trying to account for that. Like, we've been trying to control this thing that's really difficult for us to control. Mm-hmm. And that's shown up in all kinds of different ways, whether that's monogamy in general, right? Like deciding we need to dictate that society's gonna function on this monogamous basis because otherwise things are just gonna get completely out of control. Or it's what shows up in-- Honestly, I think it still shows up in flavors of non-monogamy, right? Yeah. That it's like, you know, the swinging, like, lifestyle, you can have all kinds of agreements or rules or boundaries around who you can play with or who you can't.

23:03 But also polyamorous people do it, too, right? Yeah. Around, like, this is what's acceptable and this is what's not. And, and so it's like our attempts to control that, they're not necessarily bad, right? Because I, I, I don't think that we're necessarily served by deciding, like, whatever, all holds, you know, no holds barred, just, like, do whatever you want, right? Um, but I do think that being non-monogamous in general, again, whatever flavor you decide to practice, it does force us to confront uncertainty and what happens when things are outside of our control. And I think that's- Mm. Yeah … really, really interesting. The, the hard part from the s- the swinger end of it is that, and, and we see this often in our inbox, is that people who are swingers are often-- their biggest fear is, "God, my, my partner might catch feelings."

23:50 Mm. Mm. Like, that's the biggest fear. And from a poly standpoint, there's not a whole lot of, uh, polyamorous people who are worried that their partner wants to go have sex with, with other people, 'cause- Mm … it's, uh, I mean, depending on what their dynamic is, that's probably okay, you know? Uh, so it's one of those things where I kinda wonder on that end, do you guys have people that hit you up, with the flip side of that? Mostly what that makes me think of is what I've noticed is that sometimes people will get a little spooked or a little freaked out if they feel like their partner has a different relationship to dating and sex than they do themselves. Yeah. Right?

24:30 So, so it's kinda like, as in like the coupling of one person who might be more in the mode of, uh, maybe demisexual, maybe, like, I really need to take some time to get to know someone before I can even consider engaging with them sexually, and so I like to take it really slow and really evaluate things and, you know, th- then gets coupled up with someone who's like, "No," like, "sex is a, um… It's a leisure activity for me." Like, "This is how I get to know people. I enjoy, like, having casual sex or dating really heavily or, um, you know, dating a lot of people at once or having one-offs or, or going to play parties or whatever." And so that's where I sometimes see that tension is that sometimes you can interpret your partner's different style as, like, meaning something about you.

25:14 Um, and that's where people can run into trouble, yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. Now, you had mentioned earlier that quads are pretty hard. Is it because… i'm assuming it's because different, different relationships, different personalities, the melting of them all is kind of hard, especially if y'all are all dating, inter-interchangeable. Mm-hmm. Um, I would assume that's where that part gets hard. Do you like it better when it's just- you and your main partner dating one person, or where do y'all usually see your relationships? I think that that's something I want to clarify is that when we say that about quads being unstable, doesn't mean we don't like them or they aren't great.

26:01 Uh-huh. But if you think about, think about all of the just two-person relationships you've had in your life, and that most of us have had, right? That it's hard to find that combination of two people that both are into each other, and then that also over time both grow in ways that stay compatible with each other for very long. Like that's- Yeah … hard to find just with two people. Yes. And then when you go to three, you now have two or, you know, three different pairings of two people. Mm-hmm. Plus, how do we all get along as a group? That that's all, it can happen, but it's harder to do and harder to find people that, again, all three grow together. And then I think with four, five, that can get harder and harder.

26:44 Just like thinking about probability. It's just harder to find- Yeah. … those right people. It's not that those don't work. They absolutely exist, and they do. But when, you know, the news covers polyamory, they always want to focus on triads or quads. Yeah. Right. Because that looks like what people are used to. It's like, oh, this is a couple that lives together, but there's three of them, right? Or there's- Yeah … four of them. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Whereas in all of the research, including our own as well as other people's, the predominant model of polyamory, or really all non-monogamy really, is interconnected dyads. Uh-huh. Right? So two-person relationships, that one of those people has another relationship, that relationship has another one.

27:28 Maybe they loop back in on each other sometimes, but those connections will sometimes break apart or reconnect. But that it's mostly made up of these two-person connections that all kind of interconnect with each other. I never thought of it that way, but that's- No … yeah, that makes complete sense. Right. Because, you know, I mean, even in a- See? … in a triad, I, I mean, you, it's, it's never a 100% fully equal connection all the way- Yeah … around. I mean, it's, it's pretty much impossible. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so that's, that's a really great way to think about that. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna switch lanes here right quick because When I saw that we booked you guys, there was a question that immediately popped up, and I wanted to bring it up. Oh. Uh, the two different communities, we've had our, our leg in, in both of them.

28:12 But there's one term that, that I've heard over and over again, and the meanings are different. Unicorn hunters. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, in the swinging world, a couple looking for a, a unicorn is just normal. Uh, that's how a huge- Mm … chunk of couples enter the lifestyle, as a matter of fact. A lot of people's first experiences in the lifestyle is because, the woman is bisexual and the, the man is not, and so this is the easiest thing to seek out for them a- as their- Yeah first experience. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of people that stay in the lifestyle realize there's so much more to it than that, and usually that's how you can normally tell when somebody's new to the lifestyle is that that's immediately and only what they're seeking out.

28:56 Yeah. Right. That's where they start. But, you know- That's what feels safe yeah, that's what feels safe. Yeah. Exactly. Um, but it's not as negatively viewed as it is in the poly community. And, and, and we're fully aware of why. Because obviously in, in poly relationships, that whole idea of bringing a third in, and it, it is just taking away their identity and the fact that they have, any kind of feelings, that they bring anything to the table. They're more of an object. Mm-hmm. Um, a- and so it's, it's understandably so why the, negative connotation. But How do you explain that difference to people when you guys, uh, talk about that sort of thing?

29:39 Hmm. Well, to be clear, unicorn hunting is not, like, necessarily hated by everyone within the non-monogamous community. I think it is a thing that some people do. Some people enjoy being a unicorn. Some people like going out on dates and feeling pampered and feeling like they're the attractive one that gets to be doted on by a couple all night, and that can be a really thrilling and fun situation for a person to be in. But I think the challenge lies in when the unicorn has to be, you know, equally liked, like we were just talking about, by both people, and if there are feelings stronger for one member than another, then that is maybe where some challenges come in and where, you know, that person might get kicked to the curb because y- both of the party members, the initial couple, feel like, "Okay, this isn't something that we want, uh, kind of infringing upon our relationship," and so that person has to go.

30:43 So yeah, when they don't have any agency in the relationship, that's where the trouble comes, and that's where I think things tend to go awry. But if you're doing it ethically, if that person is someone that you both care for deeply and you maybe see on, like, a basis of, m- I don't know, whenever they come into town or something- Mm-hmm it, it can be done ethically. It can be done well, but that isn't always what happens, and I think especially with newbies who tend to just come in and want, like, "Okay, this is what we're looking for, and we're not gonna deviate from that in a way, in any way, and if one of us likes the unicorn more or the unicorn likes one of us more, then we're gonna stop," that's where the issues come.

31:28 Hold on, hold on. We need to tell you guys about 3Fun first. Oh, yeah. Okay, so 3Fun is the app. You guys know the app. And if you don't know, it's for couples and singles who wanna connect with like-minded people. And it actually works. Like, we're not just saying that. It's easy, it's low pressure, and it's way less awkward than trying to figure it out on your own. Way less. We're gonna leave it at that. Yep. Download 3Fun. The link is in the show notes. Okay. Where were we? Huh. That's where, yeah, that's where I had a lot of the issues as well. , I, I think that part of why there's such a different impression in the two communities of unicorn hunting is also to go back to where each community's starting from, that polyamory tends to be also more queer and also more kind of politically minded in how they think about their relationships.

32:23 Uh, you know, think like feminist-minded is kind of what I mean- Yeah … by politically- Yeah, for sure … in this case. Yes. And so in that case, I think there's also this issue that, I'm sure you've run into this as well, but something that'll often happen with new couples wanting to open up is there's this idea that, oh, if we both together date a woman- Mm-hmm somehow that's gonna be safer or easier somehow. Right. And there's also this kind of assumption that all women are sort of bisexual. Yeah. And so we've often seen these situations where the woman in that i- initial heterosexual couple i- is, not really that bi, but is kind of feeling like she needs to force herself to do that- Yeah 'cause she likes the idea of this lifestyle- Yeah … or wants to have sex, but her male partner is just so uncomfortable with the idea of other dicks getting involved, and so they say, "Oh, well, women are safe somehow." And so I think that's where the, aversion comes from, 'cause when I say it like that, that was yucky.

33:16 I just said a bunch of yucky stuff, right? You know, to, like, to treat it that way. It, but that is, that's exactly what, I mean- I mean, toxic masculinity is- I, I- Right. There it is, yeah … exactly what you said, I say exactly word for word on TikTok. Like, it, it's true. It is exactly what it is. Well, you know, I, I, I know when we first got into the swinging aspect of it, I enjoy watching her- Mm-hmm with others. And, you know, I enjoy watching her with other men. And the immediate reaction from a lot of men is, "Well, I ain't gay." Uh- Hmm. "Sorry, bro." Hmm. "I ain't gay." So- Interesting … you, you're gonna be watching me bang your broad and you're gonna… What, what do you wanna suck my dick? I ain't gay." Hmm.

33:57 And it's like, "Hold, uh, pump the brakes there, bro." Like, it's not like that. Um, a- and that's where you start really, seeing… And that's people who are in the lifestyle maybe a year- Yeah … a couple of years- Mm-hmm … that toxic- Hmm … masculinity. Something that always has to be said is, "Oh, well, are you guys okay, being around each other sexually? Maybe a little contact might happen." W- like, we really have to talk about that? Like, we're- … we're literally all about to have sex, like, obviously. You know what I mean? Um, uh, but that's the, the toxic masculinity. I think it really- Yeah … affects a lot of the portions of ethical non-monogamy. Mm-hmm. Uh, and- Right.

34:37 Yeah … and 'cause it's less ethical. I think also, yeah, because of the starting points that it's like my impression, you know, that unicorn hunters in the swinging space And like this happens within polyamory communities too, but it's like starting from a place of like, oh, this is just kinda like fun or to fulfill a fantasy, right? That's a very different starting place from, I think the, the reputation that unicorn hunters who infiltrate polyamory spaces tend to have is a little bit more of like, no, this is for real. Like, we want you to move in with us and like- Hmm … be, be in a triad with us and like help us raise our children. And- But you won't get to make any decisions about how they're raised- Right or our house or our finances or anything. Right. But, but you might get kicked to the curb because like we've been together 20 years and you're just entering this, you know- Yeah … for the first time, right?

35:21 That, that, that- It raises it, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That, that again, it's like there's… This, this all falls on a spectrum between could be fun, could be really ethical, everyone could be engaging in, in this in the way that they want to and it's fine, all the way to like very exploitive and predatory, right? And I, and I think that the polyamory community, when people enter that space wanting a unicorn, it comes across as a little bit more predatory because it's not just about like- Mm-hmm … oh, let's just have some sexy fun. It's a little bit more like, no, we're gonna incorporate you into a structure that's probably not to your advantage. Hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very well said. Something I wanted to hit on with that is just to say that I think both sides can go too far i- in their assumptions and with that.

36:04 Hmm. Like, like we said with the swinger side, it can be this, oh well, women are safe for some reason, and I wanna talk about that in just a second. But uh, then the other part is on the poly side that, like what Dedeker said, is there's this-- there are people who like to be unicorns like Emily mentioned. Mm-hmm. And to just say, "Oh, this is always bad," is also- Hmm … painting with a really broad brush, right? Like- Right … I, I know that unicorns pretty much always mean bisexual women. Sometimes men can be called a Pegasus, I've heard before. Uh- A dragon, I think it is. Or a dragon I've heard. Dragon, yeah. But dragon is used for the asexual community too. For the ace, yeah. Really? So, yeah. I see. Well, I did not know that. They're dragons too, so that's why Pegasus is the one that I've heard.

36:46 Anyway, um, the point is, like I had a, a stint being a third for a couple, and I loved it. And, and the whole like I don't have agency in this relationship was part of the selling point for me, is it's sort of like, "Cool, I get to leave now and go back to my own place." I don't have to- See, I, I have… Yes. I-- you and I think alike. Exactly. It's like cool. I think that's primates. Yeah. We'll get back to that. Okay, go ahead. But, but, but I did wanna say one thing about the whole women are safe thing. And when I had this realization a few years ago when we were talking about this, it's really stuck with me and it's basically comes down to for some reason, I'll let you fill in the blanks of the reasons, uh, we really overvalue/overfear penises.

37:35 And so if you think about this- They are scary. Well, so think about this. If, if you think about, like, celebrities you've heard of that are bisexual of some kind, right? Mm-hmm. That generally speaking, if it's a woman who's bisexual, think like Angelina Jolie- Mm-hmm … we go, "Oh, she's straight, but sometimes she's had sex with women." Mm-hmm. And then if we have a man who's bisexual, we go, "Oh, he's gay." Oh. And it's like we're, when- whenever there's a penis involved, that one kinda overrules ones that only- Oh … have vaginas involved. It's like in both cases, we somehow think that one takes over. More relevant. That one, that one matters in a way that if there's no penis, it doesn't. Wow. Which I think goes to the whole, like, one penis policy that people will have when their male partner just feels too freaked out by another penis being involved, all the way to the point where men can be so weird that they don't want their female partners to use sex toys, 'cause that's too intimidating to have another- I've, I've known several of those penis-shaped thing.

38:30 Yeah. So when I was married, my first husband did not like me to have, sex toys. And- Right. Yeah. Oh, gosh. But then we would only have anal sex, and then that's when he bought me a toy, and I was like, "Oh, he's… So he's…" We finally realized he, he actually is gay. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, okay." There it is. Hmm. Yeah. But he was so- Yeah … intimidated by, um, by sex toys. Like I could have a little- Oh, interesting … like vibrator, but I couldn't have like a dildo. Oh, no dildo. Hmm. Yeah. We don't subscribe to that in this household. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I didn't even realize that there was such thing as, um, the one penis policy until probably about a year ago. Hmm. Well, I, I told you about it when we were poly.

39:12 You told me. Yeah. Yeah, I told you that- Mm-hmm … that I was, I was seeing, um- But like I didn't, never knew anybody who actually… Like people would put it in their dating profile apps. I was like, " Oh." Really? Like, "Oh, look at that. Oh, yeah." On, yeah. Is this on like FetLife or what is this on? No, no. Like for that was on- Or Feeld or… I saw that on OkCupid. Oh. Um, that's really where I would see it was on OkCupid, 'cause that's the one that I used primarily- Uh-huh … when we were poly. Mm-hmm. Um- And were you finding that more with swinger or lifestyle type couples or things like that on there? I, you know, primarily. But the couples that I was seeking were more for poly excursions than- Mm-hmm … than anything else. Um, and- I feel like it's become such a dirty word in the poly community to say one penis policy. Well, so dirty word here too.

39:53 Well, so it, it, it, it is. Yeah. I mean, it really is. Uh, but this was… Gosh, this is COVID. Yeah. Hmm. You know? Now, you saying that, do you think that swingers are- dirtier than poly people? A little trashier? Like do- What do you mean by dirtier? Yeah. Like do the- Like kinky or trashier? Like are you talking like less dirty or- You know, I mean- Yeah, what do you, what do you mean by that? You know, like, um, are poly people, Are they, like, more in their own little bubble as opposed to swingers? We're, we're pineapples all over the place- … as you can tell. I don't write these questions, guys. We're all about, you know, we're all about, um, not, not we're all about, but a lot of partying, a lot of celebration.

40:41 Um- I mean, shit, yeah. There's just a lot of, a lot of activities all the time. And fucking themes on everything. That's true. That's true. So, you know, we are the- Everything has a theme, yeah … may, you know, um, we're pol- Swingers do theme- You know, we're, we're swingers … things a lot more. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. We're swingers and we're proud, right? Yeah. Do you find that more that we are, we are raunchier than like poly people? Well, sh- Mm. Sure. I don't know. It depends on the person. ' Cause the thing is that like- I don't know about that … yeah, the poly community- Yeah … also has this, like, Venn diagram overlap with the kink community. And I know the kink and the swing set community- Exactly … sometimes have an overlap, right? And so it's like the raunchiness lives at the center of those three bubbles, right?

41:22 Okay. Mm. Where it's not necessarily everybody within all those communities, but there is an overlap there. I, the, what it makes me wanna talk about, though… Well, first of all, I do think swingers are more fun as a community, I will say. I think that things are more- And we say this as people who love being poly people and love our community. Thank you. Yeah. Loving poly, but I do think they're more fun. You know, I think the poly people sometimes we can have sticks up our asses about, like, a lotta stuff, and, like, too much to have any fun. Mm. So, like, I, I do think that swingers ha- are just, like, more fun. Um. Okay. But I think what we've seen, and this has influenced our show as well, um, and this sort of echoes, I think, what we saw in the US around the fight for securing, um, access to gay marriage.

42:04 Uh-huh. Is that if you look at the gay community, that's a community that historically has, has been a very, like, sexy, raunchy community also, right? Between bathhouse culture and cruising culture. But, like, when you're trying to advocate for rights, like, you know, the campaign does not want to lead with that, right? Because we still live in- Mm … a pretty sex negative culture. Mm-hmm. And so it becomes sanitized- Right … and becomes scrubbed down to, like, "Oh, it's about love," right? It's about love. It's about marriage. Like, we want all the same things- You can all relate to that … that you straight people want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's just that we're gay. It's just that we're the same sex, right? And that's not wrong, right? That's, that's all true. Yeah. But it also does kinda sanitize. But there's also other parts of the queer community that are very sexy and sex focused, right?

42:45 Mm-hmm. And body positive. And I think we see the same thing with polyamory that because often we're fighting so hard, like, like, relationships often get dismissed as, "Oh, this is just a horny sex thing," right? This is just about you wanting to have sex with multiple people or have group sex or be in some sorta weird sex cult that I think there is this implicit pressure within the polyamorous community and individuals to swing a little more sex negative and to be like, "No, no, no, it's not just about the sex. Like, it is about these real relationships that are emotional and romantic and entangled and we, and, like, we c- you know, maybe I'm co-parenting with multiple people or living with multiple people or, like, building these support networks." And again, it's like that is true. And also it means that I think people feel pressure to scrub out some of the sexuality from it.

43:31 Literally, we just ran a listener sur- survey recently- … and our biggest listener complaint is that we don't talk about sex enough on our show. So Apparently we're very sex negative. We don't mean to be necessarily. Yeah, so it's- It's just like- Right … our show doesn't, isn't… There are other shows out there that lean that- We're not all in with that yeah, that are about- Yes … the sex. And we are less about that. But it's been on a private level- But we like sex … I don't know. On a private level, honestly, like, the number of parties that I've gone to with poly people that are only with poly people, like, these are horny, raunchy people. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. For sure. I just think on a public stage- They're hot parties … yeah, people don't necessarily- Yes … want to lead with that in the way that someone who's, like, proud to be a swinger might lead with that. Yeah. Well, so, I remember when we were poly, and I remember specifically when we moved to Central Texas because o- originally we were from, uh, a small beach town in South Texas where the swinger community was incredibly small, and the swingers looked down on us for becoming poly.

44:28 Mm-hmm. Sure. Wow. And, and we, we got judgment from the swinger community. Yeah. So we were looking forward to moving to Central Texas because we knew that they had a bigger, uh, community out there. Mm-hmm. And so when we did, we realized that the poly community was being judgmental towards some of the swingers- Yeah uh, in the swinger community. And I remember specifically, but this, this guy, he had-- There was good reason why he was being judged- … if you ask me, because he was- … he was using the poly label, but he was really utilizing it for his sexual whims. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it, it, he wasn't treating them as actual relationships. He would use them as sexual conquests, and then they'd be gone.

45:11 Uh, so I, I, I completely get the, uh, the judgment there. But I, I did sit on several meet and greets of, of swinger bashing, you know? Oh, gosh. Yes. And, you know, hearing stuff like that, and it's just kind of funny, um, being that, I don't know, it seems like there's more swingers that are starting to, uh, entertain, poly, especially with- least on our side. Uh, we, we come across this a lot, and I, I wanna say the number one question, and I'd really like to get y'all's opinion on it for those who have hit us up with this question is, when you have a couple who is mismatched, when you have a couple who one person is just wants to be a swinger, just wants to have the sexual openness, and the other one is more poly-minded and would like connection, what kind of advice would you give a couple who's dealing with that right now?

46:08 Something that we've talked about before on the show is this idea of if you're not dating anybody, can you still be polyamorous? Or if you only have one partner, are you still polyamorous? And I always like to make the analogy of, well, if you're straight but you're single, you're still straight, right? Or if you're a monogamous person and you don't have a partner, you don't really question are you monogamous or not. It's more about like these are my, my identity, my beliefs, my preferences, kind of all of that rolled into one thing. And so oftentimes when we talk about, you know, couples where, you know, one person wants to date other people- Mm-hmm … and their partner is like, "Yeah, go for it.

46:50 Like, that's fine with me. I don't wanna date anyone else. I feel monogamous with you," I would argue that they're polyamorous 'cause it's more about, like, the freedom that they feel like the people in their relationships should have. And so I think with your question, that's what it comes down to, is that in that example where they are mismatched, are they okay with what the other person is doing, right? Like, do they feel like that's a valid way for a partner of their own to live their life? Meaning, if I just wanna have casual sex and I'm with a partner who's fine with me doing that, and they wanna have really long-term committed poly relationships, and I'm okay with them doing that, great.

47:30 No problem. But if it's that, but I, I… You know, they judge casual sex as like, "Oh, that's for irresponsible people, and I don't do that." And then if I fear their relationships of going, "No, but you have all these strong feelings," like, that puts me at risk of you leaving me. "I don't want you-" Yeah … "to do that," then that's just not, not a very compatible worldview for those two people. That makes sense. That makes sense. It's funny because that's the number one question that we get often. Yeah … and we are actually-- We've been in that situation. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, Pris has always been 100%, "I, I don't wanna do poly." We did poly and, and suffice to say she, she did it more so for me.

48:12 Mm-hmm. And I initially thought that we were doing it more so for her because now you get to experience a, a, a woman- Mm-hmm … relationship. Mm-hmm. Like a legit woman romantic relationship, not just sexual. And I felt like I was doing it for her, but deep down I was also doing it for me because I wanted to have these experiences as well. And I enjoyed it to an extent. Um, she made it hard for me. She, uh-- Like she, she'll admit, she made it hard for me because it was hard for her, so she was going to make it difficult for me. Uh, and even with that, I still enjoyed the shit out of it. Like I, I, I really liked it.

48:53 And we have this discussion all the time on our show, which is, well, would you still be poly if you could? And you know- Mm … yeah, I, I probably would. But we had to come to a consensus. Mm-hmm. Uh, because for me, the relationship has always been our priority. Like, that's my priority- Mm … is our relationship over anything else. And Yeah, I'm maybe more poly-hearted, and this is the direction I'd love to be in. But it's not what she wants, and to me, that doesn't make me any less non-monogamous. Yeah … we're, we're still experiencing this together, and she's actually making her way that way.

49:36 Which is incredible. It's mind-blowing. Um- And that's the other piece. It can change over time, right? That- It definitely can. Yeah. Absolutely. It's hard if you feel like you have to force yourself to change, but sometimes, yeah, you can just have different- You know- life experiences that change things for you … it, it really is. And es- especially, like, talking to people in y'all's situation, you know, it's, I wanna say, you make it look so easy. I know it's not easy. I know it's not easy. And I know there's lots of feelings, lots of emotions, like any relationship. But I do… I get it now. Like, I get it, we're swingers. I love that. But I guess I'm getting older, and I'm like, yeah, I kinda wanna have connections now. Like- Mm … that was fun, I sh- I probably should've had way more sex in my 20s than I did, but that's okay.

50:24 No, but you know what? I'm willing to bet that the sex that you have right now is way better than any sex you would've had- Oh, for sure … in your 20s. 100%. It is- You just wanna jump in and say that For sure … way better. Yes. Whoa. Um, I know how to guide now. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's fun. Yeah. Yeah, she's- I have a, I have a voice, you know? I can say what I like. She's found her, her voice- Yeah. … which is really cool. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 'Cause when we first started in the journey, she didn't have a voice. Yeah. And, it was really difficult to have those conversations. I really had to pull it out of her. And so it took us several years, and really, it took us being poly to realize that we- Mm were not communicating as good- As well as we should be … as we should have been. Yeah. Um, we thought that we were the- That's a great observation … we thought we were the greatest communicators ever.

51:07 Mm-hmm. And we were in this whole poly situation and, and that's when we finally had our final discussion, 'cause I always told her, I said, "Look, if we're… Just like swinging. It, it… If we're gonna do this- Mm-hmm … if at any point one of us feels like we gotta pull the rip cord and I just, I don't want us to do this, we can't do this, then you just say, 'We're done,' no questions asked, you know, because my priority is the relationship." Mm-hmm. Um, well, she pulled the rip cord f- for, for poly. Mm. And I didn't have an issue with it. I was actually kinda waiting for it, 'cause I knew it was making her unhappy.

51:49 Mm-hmm. But I couldn't make that decision for her. I needed her to voice it for me so that we could say, "Okay. You're right. Okay, let's, let's go ahead and step back," 'cause otherwise she's just doing it to make me happy. Mm-hmm. She's doing it- Right … to make me happy. Yeah. So she finally found her voice after that, and that was really cool. But it kinda leads me into my next little area there, because we realized just how much I was dealing with jealousy, as far as from her. Mm. I'm not a jealous person, uh, really, but, uh, she is. She's jealous enough for both of us. And, uh, that was something that we always dealt with and, and- I never cared for the villainization of jealousy.

52:30 Yeah. Um, I, I, I think that it happens way too often, and they throw that out there. It's like, "Oh, well, you're jealous. Well, you're not, you're not doing this right." Mm. "You're not doing this right." And that always kind of bugged me. I, I don't view jealousy as, anything bad. I think it just is something to, to navigate. You know, we're all humans. But I'm curious as far as you three and, and your experiences and what you've learned throughout your podcasting time and, and how you personally handle jealousy, when it comes to your non-monogamous journeys. Well, Dedeker happens to be writing a book on jealousy, so… Yeah? I'm sure it's, it's a big book. It's, it's hot. Is it called Priscilla?

53:13 Can you dedicate it to this moment? I wanna push back on your claim about not being a jealous person, 'cause in my experience, I do think jealousy-- So first of all, what the research says is, yes, of course, jealousy can fall on a spectrum personality wise. However- Right … they find that jealousy can also really fall on a spectrum just based on the relationship, right? Mm. So you can be, and I think we learn this really on the ground if you're in multiple romantic partnerships, that you can have a partnership where you feel extremely secure, not very jealous at all, at the same time as you're in a partnership where you feel very insecure and very jealous, right? So my thesis statement with that is always like, like it's like everybody's got their price. Yeah. Everybody's got something. Everybody's got the right conditions. Well, so, and, and, you know, I-- Okay. So let me get, let me… Two things.

53:53 Hmm. Two things. Okay. You. The first, the first thing is if, if I really had to say that I was jealous of anything, uh, I used to do stand-up comedy when I was younger, and, uh, she's my, my favorite audience. Like, I love making her laugh. Aw. Um, so when she finds somebody who makes her laugh, I'm like, "Okay, that's good." There you go. Ha ha ha. See, there you go. That's a good idea. But even then, like we, we- Uh-huh … we laugh about it. It's not very heavily rooted. But the reason why, and you can add this to your statement- the reason why I, I don't experience jealousy, very much, if at all, is because I grew up in an abusive household. And so I came from a very unloved household. I was never shown love by anybody in there.

54:36 It was physically, mentally, and emotionally abusive. From there, I was kicked out at 17. I lived out on the streets for a total of four years by myself out of a car, and, and worked at a, a barbecue shop. So all of that, that whole experience, I always felt very unloved and very unwanted. And to me, The ultimate look of love is that this woman can go and enjoy- Hmm … every kind of experience, whether it be emotionally, romantically, sexually, whatever. And I really want her to have a great, wonderful time because she's gonna come back to me.

55:19 Hmm. Mm-hmm. And that is the- She's still choosing you. Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Doesn't matter how good of a… It, it… She could find somebody who is better than me, has more money than me- … in every single way, no matter what quality, it's, is maxed out. And she'll always come back to me because that's, she chooses me, and that, that to me, I, I can't… How can I feel jealous, you know? And so he's always- Hmm … been like that. I have not. No. No way. She's not a, a, a compersive person. Would that be the word? But tell me- Compersive. Yeah … tell me what your thoughts are, Dedeker. Well, I think, I think what you're pointing out, Adam, makes a lot of sense. Um, and yeah, this is also supported by the research that… Because I'm assuming that if, like, whoever Pris' favorite, like, really famous comedian makes her laugh, that it doesn't make you feel jealous, I'm assuming.

56:13 Yeah. No, that's a good assumption. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But if it's someone that- Like local … is more… Yes, local- Right. Right … that brings that up. Yeah. Beautiful. And yeah, the research- Yeah. Yes, the research supports that. That, that it's basically the closer we perceive someone to be similar to us in whatever way- Mm … physically, socioeconomic status, profession, the more likely that we're gonna feel jealousy rather than admiration, right? Or a sense of respect. So it's like similarity because from an evolutionary perspective, it's like, "Hey, this person is similar to me. I should be able to get the same things that they're getting. Why am I not getting that?" Right? Hmm. That, and that's where it gets encoded in our nervous systems.

56:54 So like, totally makes sense. Uh-huh. But that's why I'm pointing out the fact that, like, everyone has their conditions that can create- Uh-huh … jealousy and insecurity, but that also means everyone has their conditions that can create a sense of deep security and safety, right? Yeah. So, so for me, it's like, yeah, I do think that, like, we can have individual differences personality wise that can make us more prone to jealousy or not to jealousy. However, I think it's much more important to look at our context of, of what we're in, because I think that's gonna be the biggest predictor of whether or not you feel jealous or not. Like, I'm saying all of this to, like- remove the way that we can kinda give ourselves a hard time and feel like, "Oh, this is all my fault.

57:38 This is all a personal failing. Like, I just need to work on myself more," or, "I need to be more enlightened," right? Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much n- it's pretty much never 100%, "Oh, this is just your problem to solve," and it's also pretty much never 100%, "This is all your partner's problem to solve," right? It's, it's always somewhere in the middle there. That's, that's one of my many thoughts. And I, and I agree. I, um, but I had to learn that on my own. Mm. You know, that h- if I didn't tell him what was making me jealous, he was never gonna know. Mm. It was gonna keep happening. So I had to at least give him that part, you know? And we would meet in the middle.

58:19 Yeah, we've always been able to meet in the middle. And it's gotten better. Now I can tell him exactly what makes me jealous. Mm-hmm. And it could be- Good … the silliest thing, but- It comes out on the show … and I tell him. I'm like, "Look, this sounds really dumb, but I didn't like what that girl was saying to you, so I don't want you talking to her when we go to the meet and greet, okay?" And he's like, "All right. That's fine." And I'm not a controlling person- … so that's why you g- I was laughing when, when you guys say all three of y'all are controlling. Yeah. And she's controlling. In, in a room of all poly people. So it's four against one is what you're saying. Oh, yeah. So, so basically you guys figure out where we're having dinner later- because I don't care. I'll eat wherever. Mm. Uh, I, you know, I just kind of, for the most part, go with the flow, but she knows that if I push back, that it's something very serious to me.

59:03 Totally. Mm. Um, and, you know, there's, my thing is, is I don't like to be made to feel like a child. Mm. Um, and so, you know, I, I give her the respect of, almost in a sense of ownership. Like, we know that we don't own each other even though we're married. W- we give each other that, that respect, that title. Mm-hmm. So yeah, she says that, well, I, I tell him, "You're not gonna do this," and it sounds very controlling. Um, but realistically if I, if I spoke up and I f- I- Yeah pushed against it, it, it would be a non-issue. Yeah. It's just one of those things that we've always had that. And I know not everybody really adheres to that.

59:44 No. But, uh- Mm. I don't know. That's us. I feel like I could take, like, another hour of your time, and I don't wanna do that 'cause I know you guys are busy. So anyways, guys, before we let you go, tell everybody where we can find you, podcast, social, all of that. It, it, whatever you can put out here, but if you wouldn't mind plugging you Absolutely. Uh, so Multiamory, you can find us wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever, uh, Google Play. I don't know what else. We're on YouTube as well. Our Instagram is multiamory_podcast, and you can join our Supercast community as well by going there and looking up Multiamory Podcast.

1:00:27 Really just search Multiamory. You'll find us all over the place. Yeah. Oh, and wait, we also have a book. It's behind me. Yeah. And I did the audiobook- Yeah … so I have to plug it because of that as well. Um, but that's, yeah, wherever you wanna find a book. Sometimes you can wander into a local bookstore and find it there as well. And then also- Or you can request it at your local bookstore. It's available on Audible, people. Yes, there you go. It's on Audible. And on Audible. She's the author. Uh, yours truly is the one who did the audiobook, so there you go. Beautiful voice. You can specifically- Thank you … request it at your library as well. If you'd rather not buy books- Oh … you can request it. Um, our library has a few copies in stock now actually but real quick, what's happening? Like, what are y'all doing? You said, Dedeker, are you, you're writing a book.

1:01:08 I am. The, it's currently out on submission, so- Okay … I'm in the, like, limbo of waiting to see if a publisher's gonna pick it up. So, so no one can really support it right now other than just- Okay like manifesting and praying- Yeah … and, like, lighting, lighting candles- Yeah … and incense to make sure that I get, like, a really good chunky book deal. Okay. Hey, she comes- That's what's going on with me … she comes from that family background, so- Okay … watch out now … all good. All good. The candles will get lit. Thank you. Good. Good. Thank you. You need it. Yeah. You guys are awesome. Well, all of that is gonna go into the show notes, so nobody has any excuses. We're gonna have everything there. Yeah. Uh, if any part of this conversation hit home, go find Multiamory right now. And if you're someone who was out here in 2016 just trying to figure this stuff out with nobody helping you, you're welcome.

1:01:51 This is the episode that we needed back then, so. Yes, for sure. Yeah, you can, you can definitely enjoy that one. Yeah. As always, you can find us and all of our episodes at beyond-monogamy.com. If you wanna hang with us live, we're on fullswapradio.com every Thursday at 2:00 PM and 7:00 PM Central. Come hang out. It is always a good time. And don't forget to mark your calendars for our upcoming Beyond Monogamy event at Club Eden in San Antonio- Mm-hmm … on June 20th. And remember, you must purchase a membership to the social club in order to attend. We would love to hang out with you, but like I said, you gotta, you gotta get that membership. Uh, also Crazy Winter Nights in Kansas City, February 19th through the 21st of 2027, we will be there.

1:02:37 Use our code BEYOMONO when you register for a discount. And we're going to be at Naughty N'awlins, people, this July 8th through the 12th in New Orleans. Come find us. We will have a Beyond Monogamy booth. We'd love to meet you in person. Yeah. And if this episode meant something to you, share it. Send it to a friend who needs it. Leave us a review because you frigging love us, man. You know you do. Subscribe if you haven't already. Every single one of those things helps keep us doing what we do, and we get to reach more people who are out there trying to figure this stuff out just like you. We see you. Yes. We were you. Yes. And with that, we thank all of you for joining us for another episode, and we will see you next week.

1:03:19 Bye.