Nina Hartley on Pleasure as a Birthright, Gang Bang Planning & 40 Years of Living Non-Monogamously

0:07 Alright y'all, before we dive in, a quick heads up. This show is raw, real, and definitely not rated pg. We're talking about adult themes, sexual content, and the kind of stuff you probably don't want blasting through your speakers at work or around your kits. So grab some headphones, pour your drink of choice and get comfy. Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not licensed therapists, counselors, or sex. Couches. Sex coaches. Sex coaches, not sex couches or just a couple of people sharing our lives, experiences and sexy adventures. An ethical non-monogamy.

0:47 So with that, pull up a chair and enjoy the show. And. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Monogamy. I'm Adam. And I'm Pris. And babe, I've been waiting for this one all week, right? Today I need everybody to stop what they're doing. Put both hands on the wheel. If you're driving, pull over if you have to, because this episode, episode is not one you wanna be distracted during. We have an absolute legend in the building, and I don't use that word lightly. We're talking about someone who has spent decades. Decades. Not just living an open, intentional sex positive life, but educating people about it. Someone who has been a voice for pleasure, for consent, for honest human connection, long before any of this had a catchy name or a subreddit.

1:38 Yeah. She's literally been doing this longer than north of our listeners have been alive. So yeah, guys pretty cool. And she has never backed down, never apologized, never shook herself for anybody. I have so much respect for this woman. Same. So, uh, before you go any further though, I do need you to do a few things. Go to www.beyondremy.com. That is our home base. That's where you're gonna find every episode that we've ever dropped. Video clips, blog posts, our events tab. Mm-hmm. Our guest bios, merch, all of it. My personal favorites is that hundred percent beyond confessional. It's completely anonymous. Something off your chest.

2:18 Just go drop it. Okay? Yes. Uh, and also subscribe. We're gonna get into later. I cannot, I can't talk anymore because I have not Welcome our wonderful guest, uh, Nina Hartley, please welcome to the show. Yes, thank you. Well, thank you. I hope I live up to that, uh, fabulous, uh, intro, but it's always good. This is my favorite topic. I'm so glad that it's getting more airtime, that's getting more, uh, supported podcast like yours, uh, that more people are talking about it, more people are living it and making community around this particular, um, uh, relationship style. It is pretty great. Yeah. You know, I, uh, I'll be honest with you, initially when I, I knew you from, uh, your film work, uh, but.

3:04 We are not actually here to talk about that because as I learned more about you, I realized, wow, you are lifestyle full. You are and through amazing. Thank you. No, I lady, you have done so much for us. Thank you. Don't, it's been my, it's been my pleasure. You know, it goes back to what I was before I knew what sex was. I never dreamt of him. I always dreamt of them, you know, the, you know, room full of naked people. Yeah. And I was like, middle school and I just, I didn't have the word queer then, or pansexual, or polyamorous, but I just knew that I wasn't like other people. I never dreamt of him. Like that's amazing. And I was younger, you know, why, why do I only get all the movies? Right? Um, uh, the, you know, they have, she has to choose.

3:46 She has to choose. And, and I didn't even know what sex was, but I recognized, wait, the guys like each other. They each like her. She likes them. And I just knew that any one woman could. Easily take care of any two men. So why couldn't they all live together? I didn't see the problem. Um, and this is way back in the way back machine, right? So it's never made compulsory monogamy has never made sense to me. Well, so I, I, I do wanna go way back because I, what I found interesting was, um, you know, you started in the swinging communities as a 22-year-old, uh, which I found really fascinating 'cause I've always said that it takes a major emotional maturity, uh, to be a part of this community and to do it well.

4:36 Um, um, did you have any issues, like jumping into it? Like did you feel like you were right there? Was it something that you were kind of like a, a work in progress for a long time? I mean, one of the reasons I picked my first. My, well, my second boyfriend. Um, so I've, I've never, I've never been successfully monogamous. I've never been single. Um, so I have, you know, other issues. I've always overlapped relationships. So that's a whole other chapter, you know, between me and Dr. Freud. Um, but, uh, I was always the youngest person in the, in the eighties when I was swinging. I was always the youngest person in the room by at least 15 years. Uh, most swingers in that era were 40 plus, you know, they had finally gotten around to swinging.

5:18 Um, and so I was always a bit of a unicorn that way. Uh, and I was living in a triad relationship, uh, from a very early age. And we broke up, not because it was three people, but I picked the wrong two people. You know, it was very, the relationship. Underneath was very toxic, um, emotionally, but I was attracted to them because he was an out non-monogamous. And I met his girlfriend right away. She was very supportive. Um, I realize now enabling, but she was very supportive and welcoming and I'd always wanted that life. And I was young, too young to know that there were other versions of that life. So I, I hooked up with the first open couple that I met, who, who was an out who, who were out as o as open.

6:01 And I did, I was too young and inexperienced to recognize any kind of red flags as to narcissistic abuse and all the things that young people are, are susceptible to. So I, I, but I never, ever, ever doubted the fact that I am not a, so if I had, when I was eight, by the time I was 14, I'd seen the words, bisexual, exhibitionist, voyeur, nudist and swinger. And I knew, although all those apply to me, and if I was. 18-year-old now, or 15-year-old now, I would, I would identify as pan poly, queer, kinky, and probably non-binary or a, a gender. I don't feel like a girl or like a boy. I recognize I'm cisgender. I never wanted to change my, my presentation.

6:44 I get that. I'm a, I'm a girl, but I never felt like a girl because I, I'm child free and happy for it. Never had a moment worry about, you know, what have I done? It's like, no, every day wake up without a child. It's like, yeah, still the, still a good thing that I don't have kids. Right. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm a child. I'm a child free woman who loves children, but I don't have what it takes to be a mother. And I knew that as soon as ro I was 14 when Roe v Wade was, was finally ruled. And I recognized then how I knew already was very important. Um, and I, I kept waiting to wanna be a mom. Never happened. So. They forgot to wind my clock at the factory. Right. That biological clock. There's a lot of people that are parents that shouldn't have been.

7:26 Yes. We wish that they had the parents of both of my exes. Yeah. There you go. I, you know, my, our parents, you know, we've, we've always said like, our parents should have never been parents. Like we, we come from very traumatic backgrounds, you know? Yeah. And so it was something that we've always said. It's just one of those things. It's like sometimes some people just need to say, nah, it's not for me. Now I was reading, reading a little bit about your like bio, um, do I know how you live your life? And you lived it like that, very young. And apparently your parents were kind of very freeish as well. They were different. They were, they were, um, uh. Left wing, um, politically active in the civil rights era.

8:10 My father was blacklisted in 1957, um, for being a communist, and that's, I was right before I was born, but, um, that sort of threw the family, uh, into a, uh, different direction, for lack of a better word. Yeah. Um, and they tried all kinds of things in the sixties. They tried, uh, any, every variation of therapy out there. But the one that really stuck with me was Ian Therapy. Um, and I discovered they were doing that when I got, I got about eight and that's when I heard the word body armor and recognized that I had body armor. Um, so a lot of wor a lot of things now because of the mental health awareness. I'm going on to lots of more dis this more discussion now about, um, neurodivergency.

8:52 I'm definitely neurodivergent for sure. Um mm-hmm. As well as queer and kinky and all the things. Um, and. I recognize now I had emia, which is being, not knowing what, what are you feeling? And, and so there's all kinds of information coming out now that I can, I can backtrack and go, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Isn't, it's, it is amazing. I'm very happy. I I, I, I got diagnosed a DHD about two years ago and I was 60. Wow. Wow. And I told Adam, I was like, man, if, had I gotten diagnosed when I was younger, of course my parents thought it was just actually just laziness. But if had I got diagnosed back then, I could have been amazing.

9:33 I was like, yeah, you're so smart. Why don't you try harder? Yeah. I, I heard that too. Yeah. You know, my, my parents didn't say anything about anything. Um, they were too busy and someone that was 10 years old, they found Zen Buddhism. And that was, um. The savior of them. And, and actually I'm quite grateful because of the time and place they could have found est, they could have found Scientology, they could have found Har Krishna. Uh, they could have very, so they, I thank God they found San Buddhism because it is rigorous, but it doesn't permit proselytization proselytizing. So they exposed me to it because I'm around it. But they never said, you have to do these things. And I'm very grateful for that actually. What is that? What is proselytizing?

10:13 Come, come join our church. This is really great. Oh, okay. You should come listen, come, come, come, come to a talk. Come to just, you know, basically what, what Christians are, are told to do. Right? Go, go spread the good news, bring people to the church. Oh, um, what the mission, what the Mormon missions are all about. Right? So, of all, and so what of all the religions Zen does not seek. Recruit does not recruit people. You, when you suffer enough, you find your way to Zen Buddhism. And until you suffer enough, it holds zero interest. Wow. Because it's very, very rigorous. Right. Um, and, uh, it is very, very, very personally demanding. Um, and so only people are super serious about the spiritual growth. Will ever do zen in any kind of real way?

10:53 That much I know. Well, you know, I, I had looked into, uh, Buddhism, but I have a, I guess a lot of, um, unresolved anger from my past that I found really difficult to, like, I, I. I refuse to forgive certain people. And I was like, God, that's direct conflict of, you know, like, I didn't think that I, I I could take part in such a beautiful thing. Mm-hmm. Because I just, I feel like there's still something there. Zen folk are full of anger. So, so the thing about, no, the, the thing about the thing about Zen, it's not about, it's becoming aware of your own mind. So zen meditation, meditation is not, meditation is not about clearing your mind or calming your mind.

11:36 You're emptying your mind. It's becoming aware of, aware of your mind as a a thing. So in zen, so think about, so they talk about, you know, thought feelings are like bubbles, uh, sifo, right? So do, uh, you know, popcorn, poppers, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Yeah. So our brains make thoughts. That's what brains do. That's what they do. So, thought, thought, thought, thought, thought, thought, thought, thought, thought. What humans do because of conditioning is take that piece of popcorn and that piece of popcorn go, these are true. This is real. And ignoring all the other pieces of popcorn that might have a different thought or a different meaning. So we clinging. So in Buddhism, suffering is caused by greed, hate and desire. We clinging to it. We clinging to our identity as victim.

12:16 We clinging to our identity as wow, as, um, better than we clinging to our identity as a successful CEO. Whatever I, our identity is, we cling to it. We, we clinging to it. Ugh. Ugh. That is a state of suffering. So suffering, pain is inevitable. Suffering is what we do. Suffering is an action we take with our minds against ourselves usually. But pain, pain is inevitable. We're gonna, we're gonna have loss. We're going to stu, our toe enemy. Um, and so with Zen, you don't, you don't, you just observe. Oh, hello, mind. You can sit. So zen meditation is called sitting meditation. You sit still with your eyes, downcast. You sit still for 40 minutes. You, you just, you just sit.

12:58 Now when you know that there is a significant number of people who would rather shock themselves with electricity than be 15 minutes without their devices people. So, so it is very, when we hate ourselves, when we are in a lot of distress due to our history, nothing is more painful than just sitting still and watching our mind do its thing. So you can start the meditation in a perfectly good mood and come out the other end of the meditation in a completely different mood. And, and all you did was sit still and see your mind. How it does it sinks how our condition mind tells us about the world, tells us about ourselves, tells us how it should be and how far away we are from it. So that, that knowing who you are really brings you to where you have, where you're at now.

13:43 I mean, it takes a lot of. That, especially like say for me, a person just who doesn't know how to meditate or just never done anything like that. The, the fact that you started in Buddhism so young that mine just kept growing into that positivity, which is not, it's, it's not so much positivity. And my parents, my parents didn't make me do any of this, but I, it, of, of the philosophies, I like it the best because you don't, you don't believe anything. You don't believe in Buddhism. You practice Buddhist principles. So it's all about practice. It's all about mindfulness. So our body, this is why, this is why I say this is why sex and sexuality is so, such a potent, um, healing force. Because our, because of the nature of mind, we can go into the past and, and be depressed about what happened.

14:27 We can go into the future and be anxious about what, what might happen because our mind, our minds could be everywhere all at once. Our body is stuck in meat space right here. It cannot go anywhere. It suffers right now. So with mindfulness, you bring your mind into where your body is right now, meditating, walking, cooking. So if you're cook, cooking, cooking, food, just chop vegetables, just wash dishes, just do what you're doing and don't. Mm-hmm. So sex is great because pleasure is in the body, and so as we, we. Wire or re rewe our relationship to pleasure as we claim pleasure for ourselves. I'm alone in a room not hurting anybody.

15:08 I'm gonna put my hand between my legs, and then all your shit comes up, all the fear, all the anger, all the distress of what happened, all the things, all the stories. All the things. And so your body wants the pleasure and your mind goes no, and throws up all the things between you and yourself, right? You're in your body. You're trying to connect to your body with all these layers of bullshit that have been layered on from the fam. All the things our, all the, the cumulative weight of our lived experience and our conditioning and our training and our being in the world. And we carry that around with us. Pleasure is, pleasure is a birthright due to anatomy because we're wired for it right out of the box.

15:49 And we are trained away from that to make good boys and girls. Mm-hmm. Because Western, you know, erotiphobia and misogyny and phobia and all the things. Yeah. And so we are walking around in a wounded relationship with our own physical self because of our, you, you have, you have one reason for not being in your physical body. You have another, I have another. And so luckily, due to the nature of pleasure, it can only bring us to our best self. So if, if I just learn to, to be, be okay with pleasure in my body with not hurting anybody, I will clear up a lot of things, right? Because as I'm touching myself and getting closer to orgasm, and then something comes up in my mind and, and I stop, I can say, that's this thing in my mind.

16:35 It's not real. Right now. I'm alone in my room. Not hurting anybody. And so you can start dancing with it and just using the pleasure to stay here. Say, I know you're scared. I know you're scared. I know you're scared. Stay here. Stay here. I, yeah, I know you're scared. And then you start, um, not images. Um, realizations start happening and insights start happening. And the suffering lessons a little when you have a, when you have a drop of insight. Oh, so you're not letting go of anything. You're not, not, you're not getting to forgiveness because they deserve it. We get to forgiveness because it hurts to be angry all the time. It's bad for us. It's bad for our spirit that you, you can go no contact. You never have to talk to them again. You never have to say, and you not required.

17:18 Not required. You don't need, you don't need, you don't need to forgive them or say, I forgive you. And they don't. Yeah. That's what I feel like. That's what everybody says that I have to do. Yeah. They're like, no, you have to forgive them. And you, you know, you in order to feel better about, but it's so hard when you're raised like that, that, so, yeah. So, yeah, exactly. So I wasn't raised in any, I wasn't raised in a real, my parents started studying Zen when I was 10. But again, they just did it in front of me. They didn't say, and you have to sit down and read these things too. You have to come listen to this person talk as well. They brought me around to places because I was too young to be left alone. But it wasn't like, and you have to, you have to believe this as well. Um, but I see that, you know, my parents teacher said, you must work diligently at your own salvation.

18:04 So with Zen, you wake up to the fact that everyone's conditioned. Mm-hmm. And that's just being conditioned is a state of being human. You can't avoid it. You know what conditioning you get depends on culture, race, class, gender, all the things. Yeah. But we are a creature of our environment, which is all the 10,000 of the culture that have shown this before. This moment. Right now there's been 10,000 years of culture, and here we are sitting in front of a screen talking across the country. Explain why we're all so shitty now. Yes, yes it does. Yes it does. You made shitty humans. I mean, seriously, you know, especially when TV came, like every year you're raised around it.

18:46 Yeah. That I was raised by television. You are, you know, yeah. My parents, you know, people talk about Generation X having zero supervision. I, I'm a boomer. I had zero supervision. My parents were like early, you know, they were, they were in a crisis in their marriage, in their personal individually, they're each having. Crisis of being middle aged in that time period and the crisis in the marriage. And, um, they came to Zen separately and realized, okay, it did save their marriage. They ended up being married 63 years, um, because they, they found something to, that they both believed in and could do together. Right? And, um, that's a whole other career. They're, they're there 46 years before they, before they died.

19:27 So they, they really were fully embedded in, in the culture. My mother was the first, uh, at the first woman leader of a zen temple in America. Um, so she's, she, she, she's her own, she's her own mucky muck. She has her own wiki page actually. Um, which is hilarious to me. Um, but the, so my, my parents did not care for what I did, but they also did not make a big fuss of it. They, they, they, my mother finally, after 25 years of sitting on a cushion, um, she said, you know, I was upset because you didn't do as I expected, but. I realize expectations are my problem. Oh, and that, so, and you're, so, you're a parent.

20:08 You're a boomer child. You're from the boomer, and you're amazingly sweet. Yeah. Our parents were boomers and we make fun of them because they're such assholes. I mean, well, I did, I I never had kids. They're the ones now that I never had kids. And I'm the youngest. Youngest. You're the smartest woman on earth. Thank you for thinking so, but just here, it, it, it, it embarrassing to see how other, because there are a lot of TikTok and, and YouTube, you know, of millennials talking about their boom, you know, making fun of their boomer parents. It's like, Ooh, ooh. I do have a bag of bags. I do have a bag of bags because you never know when you need a bag. But, um, I'm, I'm, I am.

20:48 I, I am. I know I'm, I'm boomer age, but I'm not boomer minded in some things. I'm boomer minded. How do you use this application again? You know, how do I sync up my devices, but, uh, not have, not, not being a parent has made all the, for me, has made all the difference. Oh man. Child being child free has made all the difference. Are you, are you child free? We actually have five kids. We have a very full house, so Thank you. He we're blended. Yeah. We're four years apart. I'm 48. He's 44. Um, I had my first child, so I was told I was never going to have kids. And, um, on my second marriage, we just, you know, decided to just throw it to the wind.

21:31 And neither of us were told. We were told, both told that we could never have kids, Kim again and me. Never. And boom, I had my first child. I was 31 1. Oh, so you still have kids at home? You still have minor children? We do. We have two 14-year-old and we, and then I have a almost 15 year has a 26 not biological, and then two biological that are 1920 and one that just turned 15. So they're, all of our kids are the same age under the roof. Wow. That's sort of, they get on. Okay. Oh yeah. We've been together for 15 years. The babies. We call 'em the babies of 15 year olds.

22:12 That's all they know. Oh. Um, that's pretty great. I mean, I, so yeah, that's, I I'm an auntie. I love being an auntie. I love being a great auntie. Again, I love kids. I knew early I did not have it in me to be, I knew I'd fuck a kid up. I just, I just knew it. Um, 'cause I didn't know about trauma. C-P-T-S-D and, and all the things, but I definitely knew that I wasn't mommy material because I know how much it took to be half at My mother really wanted to be better at this, and I could see she was trying so hard to be a better mom than she had. And it, you have no idea. That is exhausting That and then being in the lifestyle and still living life. Yeah. Parking exhausted. And it's, but at least you can leave your kids home on a Saturday night.

22:54 Yeah. People are like, oh, you guys are bad parents because y'all don't choose each other all the time. Do you find that now I have a really good, I have a question. So you're in the lifestyle. Do you find it hard to connect with people who are not parents or who are parents? Like, I know that you're in your sixties, but I'm sure that, I mean, you're smoking hot, so I'm sure that, you know, there's these guys who like the cougars and stuff like that. Oh, for sure. That's, that's always hot. I'm not looking for relationships. I'm twi, I'm twice divorced. So for me, the, the, the sex that I have, um, off camera is strictly sports sex.

23:35 So is that gonna be at a party? It's gonna be with an old friend. I don't go out and pick up new people. I don't, I don't have the energy, the bandwidth for that. Um, and honestly, uh, I don't, I don't need Dick the way that I, what, you know, I, so I I you just became my don't person on her. I just, I don't, I I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you in on a big secret. I have been fucked. I, so for me, you know, me and I, I don't need to fuck anymore If I, if I, I I, I could give up intercourse, um, quite easily because a oral sex is where it's at for me personally. Um, you know, uh, blow jobs or no blow jobs or no jobs, tears right now, like, oh my God, no.

24:15 So all these, all these young guys, they want, they, they say they want an older woman who fucks like a 30-year-old. It's like, no, I'm postmenopausal. Um, I do not, I do not need penis in that way anymore. And no, you cannot show me a good time that way. And all the young guys, all the young guys, all the other guys wanna be with me. It's like, honey, you could not, you, you would not laugh. You couldn't, you couldn't tolerate the hand job. You, how many times have everything that she just said? How many times I'm in, I'm 48. How many times have I said that? Like, all the time I, it's hard. And there's younger guys who are always knocking down the door trying to go, Hey, you know, I can really show you a good time. I'm like, you know, but, but can, but can you? You know, my thing is, I'm, I'm very confident, you know, I know this woman and we know each other very well, and I know that there's nobody that can please me the way I can.

25:00 But these guys, they, they really alpha it out. They're watching too much porn, but don't figure, so I tell, tell guys all the time, porn is so, people should know porn. Porn is, porn is a weird amalgamation of Monster truck rallies. WE Wrestling, sporting Event, bad dinner theater, um, uh, a little bit of a lifestyle, a life, uh, wildlife documentary and a big old dollop of, you know, misogyny and, and sexism. I mean, just 'cause it is so young. Men are looking at porn where the women, any woman in porn needs Dick, I need dick and you are it.

25:43 Come fuck me. Because that's, that's the point of a porno movie. It's not about That's what you want. Makes funny. No, but, but because it's for masturbation and in masturbation, there's no room for nuance. There's no room for subtlety, there's no room for feelings. It's just a, a visual thing that you get to look at. It's like popcorn. It's disposable. Porn's meant to be disposable. Um, that's why, that's why even if porn stopped making tomorrow, no thousand people could watch all the available movies out there, because, but it's always based on the news. So that is a indictment of our culture and the disrespect we offer sex to women and all the things. That's, that's a whole other conversation. But the, i the idea because in our culture of sex education is such a weird non thing that people look at the, because the sex and pornography is real.

26:32 It is a real penis. It is a real vagina. They are really touching. They don't know because we have no media literacy and critical thinking in our country, they. Then stop and go, this is a movie. And in real life your mileage may vary. So yeah, you get the guys who find you attractive and they're young. All they know is hard want in. They, they're not they. And so, and they, they think you want that too. So it's a big, it's, it's taken me a long time to say in public, I'm probably not gonna fuck on camera anymore. I'm, I've come, I'm doing scenes again, but not fucking, and I have to realize that if people are disappointed with that, I've done a thousand boy girl scenes, you can go find any one of those thousand scenes and ha and have at it, have fun, have ha have fun with the, you know, and, and I, I am, you know, I grew up.

27:21 Watching porn. I love porn. But I will say that the problem with it is, it's that whole fantasy versus reality thing. And especially when it comes to the lifestyle and people coming into the lifestyle. A lot of these younger people, they, they know what they've seen on, on clips, on, on, it's no, they don't see the negotiation. They don't see the, the boundary setting. They don't see the safety measures. They don't, they hardly ever show loom. Exactly. Um, you So it is, it is a problem when younger people are coming into the lifestyle because they don't have the basis in sex education or sex positivity. 'cause the, the whole sex positive subculture than a bunch of regular people who want in, but they don't have the emotional bandwidth to handle jealousy and boundaries and emotional regulation.

28:10 Yes. And, but they never pay for it. It's like if you want the hot, if you want a guaranteed hot Cougar experience, hire a Cougar age professional provider and have at it, and she'll give you that show. But in real life, she'll, she'll gimme that fun. It's a gig. It's a gig. So if you, so if you want it for real and for sure you'll hire a pro and negotiate that. She's gonna be the hot cougar and you're gonna be the college sophomore, whatever. Yeah. They don't know that in real life, women can say no, but it's negotiation and you have to be able to talk about what you want and hear what other people want, and then act within that. And that's never, that's never discussed.

28:50 Right. As a gender. And it's not. Have you seen a change from where you started to now? Do you feel like we're getting, uh, women as a, as a being? Do you feel like we're getting better now? We have so many tools now, more than you did more tools. But now, but now the manosphere is, is bigger than ever. And so now people are being very much siloed. So men who are having trouble in life instead of going to therapy and looking in the mirror, blaming feminism and women wanting too, you know, too much. Um, and the, the manosphere thing is, you know, um, 80% of women are going after 20% of men and they want the six pack.

29:31 And the six figures and six feet learn that, which is just no, we, we saw a documentary. Yeah, he, he, it's very, it's very distressing and it's really very common. So you, so the discourse around, so Trump has made everything coser and Trump has this ripped the bandaid off the, the misogyny and the racism and not be looking to say the quiet parts out loud and vote the quiet parts out loud. So now it's very important that you. Pick your community. Right there is on the other, on the flip side of the manosphere, I do run into people in their twenties who, who are already happily poly in some kind of group situation or a loose friendship circle. The men are more casually bisexual than they used to be.

30:12 So for, for, so there is, there are two subcultures that I see emerging, and I don't do a study of this, but the classic bro culture that we see so much of, and then a quieter, more queer inclusive, um, uh, green flag dudes who are just more able to talk about their sexuality and what they want and then seek people who get, seek like-minded people and engage them in it as opposed to trying to talk somebody into it. Um, yeah, it is, those people don't get much press because there's nothing. The, the, there's nothing ations about it, but happily living, non-monogamy, non monogamously. There's, you know, where's the tension, where's the drama? Where's the story?

30:53 So when you have a bunch of people spewing misogynistic hate, um, that is more of a, you know, rage ba that, that's gonna get more views. Um, it's important though that you keep doing your podcast so that people who are looking for a beacon of hope and for the community, their community can find you. Right? Yeah. Its really important that people know that there is a different way to be than unhappily monogamous, or, you know, someone once said, people don't wanna be monogamous. They want to appear monogamous because, and our culture, monogamy still gets you social benefits, and so they don't want to, and again, I, I mean, yeah, it's true. We have friends that, that don't want to have that label.

31:36 Like they're just whatever or whatever, you know, and it's like, hmm, no, you're. Non-monogamous. It's what it's, yeah, but it can still hurt you at work. It can still hurt you in, in politics. I mean, so it's, I, I get, I get why people are the fear. Yeah. So I, I, I've never had a straight job. I don't, I, I, well, you know, I'm going up for jury duty in a, in a couple weeks. I hope, you know, you know, hopefully I get recognized enough that people gonna go, no, we can't have her, you know? Um, uh, um, it's just important that there are more. Ways for people to find information about our, our culture, the, the culture of consensual non-monogamy, ethical, non-monogamy, polyamory, swinging, whatever words I I like, I like, uh, CNNC and m, consensual non-monogamy.

32:27 That just covered, that's a big umbrella. That's a big umbrella. Yeah. Well, so I never liked throwing ethical out there because it's assuming that there's a form of non-monogamy that it's okay to be unethical. Yeah. It's like, no, like it's not, so you didn't want that front. So, so I, I always like consensual non-monogamy. That's so, I, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy with consensual non monogamy. That, that, that's, that's, that's what it is. It's, um, I, I tell young men all the time that whatever's going on in your head, you can have the sex life of your dream with nobody being angry, sick, or pregnant if you do the work. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't just happen. But if you do the personal work, you can find a partner who wants that too, and find a whole community who supports you in that. And. Or you can keep lying to your girlfriend or, you know, those, I mean, I, I feel like it's easier for, and I'm, and because I have kids of so many ages, um, I feel like right now girls are coming out more and being more free about it.

33:26 Or females are then males. Like the males are still scared because some of us have raised misogynistic little assholes, you know, and some of us have not. Our boys are really good and they're very inclusive, but I know that they start, like people around them are not, yeah. So and so, and so then, you know, do. So your boys may never do those things to, they would never, you know, take advantage of someone who's drunker. But do they call out their friend for saying bullshit shit? No. That's the thing. Yeah, because nobody wants to be called out. Nobody wants to have that impaired. So, we'll, and we'll, we'll continue until more men call out other men because men are not gonna, no one's gonna say, please stop raping us.

34:06 Please stop raping us. It's only 'cause men only listen to other men. Men do not listen to women, men listen to other men. Now I'm gonna remind that. And so if until enough men go, dude, not cool. Fuck. What the fuck? And are willing to stand up and, and, and hold without lying, nothing will change. Locker room talk will not change. Period. To the guys who stay quiet. And I don't like it because, again, you don't wanna be, I mean, social, social, social pressure to act in certain ways. So I don't, I don't, I don't know what is required to change that. 'cause again, I'm not a parent. Yeah. You know, it takes a lot. It, no, it takes a lot. But unless, unless boy, unless boys change, unless the, the, the good men who would never do those things start pushing back against the guys who even who say those things and do those things, nothing will change.

34:56 Um, and the, and the even more so in the right wing, the right wing is very homosocial. It's very homoerotic, right? Yes. They men though, men who claim to be straight, they will have intercourse with women, but they reserves their admiration and their, and their love and their appreciation for men. And they, they only really like appreciation and admiration from other men to make them feel good about themselves because women are still, you know, not, they're still. Quite disrespected. I have some books. I can email you some titles that will please do. Um, that will, that will help. But it's, but it's really, it's really difficult. Um, I don't have this, this, this chat is still not working. Nope. Okay. Not a problem. I'll send it later.

35:37 Um, okay. And a great book for your, for your boys too, actually. Uh, that Yeah. Uh, that you will like, um, I will love that. I mean, they are, we are, you know, my husband's very respectful, even in like, we not, and I say even in non-monogamy relationship, he has always been respectful of me. I mean, even like as, as swingers, I was just talking about this with the couple that we were, uh, hanging out with last night, was that, you know, there's, there's a lot of men that will call me over and have that one-on-one guy talk locker room talk, you know, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna book that one and I'm gonna book that one tonight. And I'm, and it makes me real uncomfortable because I was raised by women.

36:19 And so that's very disrespectful. And, and so I sit back and I'm like, that's not, that's not cool. You know, matter of fact, is that also not how it works? It's not how it works. Baby. Women run swinging, baby women are in charge of swinging. Sweetheart. Always that you're just so cute. You're just accuse as your boy. You just accuse your boy, you're gonna go do this and go have that girl. You're in death. So funny. And, you know, it's, and it's a chest stumping thing. I don't know if they're trying to show off for other men and this and that. You know, I've, I've always been one of those that I'm, I'm not alpha, that's not my thing. Like, I'm confident in my own way. I know I can take care of whatever I need to take care of. And that's cool. I can be myself and that's why I'm so frigging happy.

37:01 But I think a lot of these guys, they just have this pent up. Nobody's ever really noticed me. And so they're ever, they're gonna notice me now. The lack of intelligence and the lack of maturity, you would think at even this age would. Speed there, but it's not for a lot of men, men do anything except go to therapy again. So you were talking about to, you know, toxic masculine behavior is the conflation of, of not having access to your emotions with being strong makes you brittle and makes you fragile as, as you have discovered in your own situation. Um, I heard something the other day that I did not come up with, but I wish that men are not competing with other men.

37:47 For women. Men are competing with, competing with women's sense of peace and safety. Right. Because, because we no longer need you for economic survival, there are things up with which we will not put. And my friend was just saying that Yeah. Rather, we'd rather be alone with our cats and our vibrators than deal with a man baby. There's a new word called man keeping. Right, which is, which, it just like, it sounds like it's a, it's a woman who, who is having to finish raising a man because his mama didn't do it. Uh, but all these guys who weaponized incompetence, you know who, who, who, yeah. Just are very hostile to their partners and, and it's really quite distressing. Again, as a, I'm, I don't understand heterosexuality, I don't, I don't, I don't understand being monosexual the only one, one gender is attractive to me, so I don't understand monogamy, right?

38:39 So I don't, so I can only imagine if I'm a woman who's oriented to, I want a single partner of a man variety. I could only, I can barely imagine how difficult it is to. To find him, especially when you find out about the rape academy with all the hits that, that, you know mm-hmm. Just when you see the deep, deep, deep misogyny that's baked into all the laws and all the customs, I, I would feel despairing too, if I was a normie, trying to find my, trying to find a, a partner within that structure when I only want one and I want him to be faithful to me and I wanna be faithful to him, and I want only one. I don't know how you, I don't know how.

39:19 And then on top of that, whatever sexual trauma I have that makes it difficult, easy for me to become sexually comfortable with a person and all the layers, I don't know how people do it. Um, who want a more con, who are wired for more conventional, conventional, traditional expression of, of sex. Um, I, I, uh, I don't understand. I don't understand it. Do you live your, do you have a poly life? Is that what you would label? If you have to put a name on it? I'm gonna say non-monogamous, right? So poly. So I get them more of a swinger than I am poly. I, I have lots of close friends and sex with them is an option when we're together. Um, but we don't maintain relationship. I don't send Valentine's cards, you know?

40:00 Um, it's, I guess it depends. It def it depends with options because the, the be the benefit is not automatic. It's not like, you know, if I see them, we're gonna have sex, but if I see them in the sex positive community, we could talk about where you're at tonight. Um, I, that just keeps changing. I, I love it. So I also, I think Polly has, I think poll is very part, you know, what it means to me, what it means to you. So non, non-monogamous versus swinger versus Polly. So for me, poly implies a more ongoing relational. Mm. Relational. Yeah. Relat. Like, so with swingers, I don't talk to you between swing parties when I say, oh my gosh, how, how you guys doing?

40:40 Hey, whatcha you move for tonight? And, you know, so, but in between swing parties, I don't call people. I don't talk to them. I don't say, Hey, what doing wanna go to dinner? Um, I don't do that much. Um, it's just, uh, it's just, it's just, so for me it's just social. Um, again, I don't, but also I don't go to swing parties to get laid. I go to swing parties to help other people get laid. Right. So I, I am, I'm the ultimate unicorn at a swing party. I'm here to help. I'm, I'm the, I'm the manic pixie dream girl. I'm here to lay a great time on you. I'm, I'm a bit of a stone top. Okay. Meaning I, I, I do to others. I don't really need you to do to me. Huh? So, women who say that I'm, I'm bi from the waist up. That's fine. I don't want you to eat me out. We're good. We're good sweetheart.

41:21 And lay back. Have a good time. Suck your husband's dick. We'll eat you out. We're, we're gonna have a great, we're gonna have a great time. Um, so, but that's just me. My, I'm not multiple, feel like I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't come easily Nina somewhere in here that she is just like, I'm, I, I, I like helping, I like doing to others. I like playing with bodies. I like helping other people have sex. That's my favorite thing is helping two other people have sex. I love running, I love running, um, gang bank. I love running trains. So the person at the bottom who's having the train can just relax and, and go there. And I'm making sure that, you know, boundaries are respected and safer sex protocol that we've agreed upon is followed. So I don't, I don't, I don't not, I don't go to swing parties to get to get fucked.

42:05 I, I go there. I, I personally go there to. Show other people a good time and to get and recklessly eyeball other people having sex. Well, you know, Nina, I wanna take a little sidebar there because you, you, you went into, uh, like trains and gang bangs and whatnot. This woman here, she, one of her fantasies is to do a, a gang bang. And she's been very vocal on it. I was told it's a train. Well, I, I dunno, I dunno what the actual label is. So a train is one person after another first. And a gang bang is all hands on you at once. A train is So you'd want one after one, one after another, after another. No, I'd like the gang bang. All the gang bang. So, so you can absolutely. So here's what, so if as the partner there, um, first you find out from her who does she wanna be in her gang bang.

42:50 So, and that's the, that's the tough part is that she, so, and this was something that she was gonna talk to you about, was that she's had difficulty finding men. Um, there's not been a lot of really good experiences, uh, in the lifestyle for her as far as Nina men. Nina girl, help me out. So in, in, in your, in your swing community, um, so a a a gang bang is in, in porn Atlanta. Gang bang is five guys because the airtight plus two hand jobs. So first you get to figure out in a gang, bang, what are your boundaries? Like, nothing in your butt. What, what? So you just have to know when all the hands are on me. I know that this is not gonna happen out of the blue, right?

43:33 Whatever, what, and whatever. So whatever your, whatever your fuck no boundary is, just know what that is. Then you, if you can find three to five guys who you have liked on other occasions. And so it might, it takes a bit of planning, right? Because, um, logistically it sounds like a nightmare. It's very challenging, but you can do, right? Very challenge. So do you, so first, do you even know three to five men from your swing life that you would want to be there for you in that way? Yes. You named five. Okay. Now, um, so what you do then is individually at your own time, talk to each of them separately. Hey, I like to plan. I'm playing gang bang for Christmas, new year is my birthday, whatever that, so make it enough in advance.

44:17 It's not like next weekend. And to say, is that something that you could be part of 7:00 PM tonight? Right? Um, and so, um, is that something could be thing you wanna be part of, you know, and, uh, and if the guys know each other, that, that does help. If you don't have a timeline, just let it be known at parties that, that this is something you want to arrange. Are there any men who would like to do something like that with me? And see who, period. Okay. I can do that. And you know, see who, see who shows up. Um, well, so we've noticed that there's a lot of men who struggle to perform with other men, uh, present there or, you know, with people watching or whatever. Like, like, um, it's so hard. How can you be a swinger, not be exhibitionistic? I, I don't know. We we're total exhibitionists, so we we're in the middle beds of the club in front of everybody putting on a show.

45:03 Like, that's the way we get down. We're gonna have you come over one night. Yeah. Nina Harley weekend, guys. So I, I totally, I totally get the, because in porno it happens all the time, but these porno men are not like other men. Right, right. Um, because, and that's why they can do this. Uh, and actually now I just discovered the other day that more men than I was aware of also inject their dicks, which make it. Virtually super easy to be hard because you're hard, because chemicals. Um, so back in the day when I was making movies, Dick worked or didn't work. There's no help for you. So the guy, the, the guy who could do that work was a certain kind of guy.

45:45 A little bit misogynistic, a little bit narcissistic, a little bit sociopathic, um, yeah, and very self, very self-involved because a porno guy has to, on a good day, he has someone who will help him on a bad day. He has to do it all himself, with her as a prop, uh, against which he is working. So porn sex is super not sexy and romantic. Yeah, some pairings are better than other pairings. You know, I, and I've, um, but you know, the men are working very hard to stay hard for as long as they need to and perform masculinity, right? 'cause porn is very heteronormative. It's very FAO centric. It's very linear and in real life, you know, you do a little of this, you do a little of that.

46:26 So, real life sex, especially swinging sex as you know, is more, it's more feminine. You start some, you stop. Some you, you know, you may fuck, but not come with her. 'cause you wanna stay your orga for your partner later. You know? It's just more like what feels good right now. And porn, we have a schedule, we have lunch. We have to get this scene shot. We have, once we have life, um, no, we're waiting for, and porn we're waiting. Your the only thing staying between us and lunch is your dick. So top, top, get to it. Um, so porn is goodness. Porn is, porn is so unsexy. It's so unromantic and it's so industrial. That is, that is. That is porn, right? Um, but it's because it's a professional media product.

47:08 It's not real life. So start with, this is a get it out there in the community. You know, I want a gang, bang, this is what I wanna do. And then I'm, uh, if you're interested in being part of my gang, bang, you know, drop me, uh, send me your email and we'll start, we'll start, we'll start a, start the application process. Yeah. First you have to leave a good review on our, uh, podcast and then, and follow us and Nina Hartley start the application process. So this, this is a, this is a process, um, because they're gonna be some guys who love the idea, uh, the guys who don't. And so they will not send you their email for the, for the selection process. Um, but it may take, you know, six months to, to organize.

47:52 But once you have your team, you may be able to have semi-annual gang bangs. Right. Um, years ago there was a group of young men on the west coast called the West Coast. West Coast gang bangs. Now there, there is a whole gang paying subculture. Um, uh, probably they're in Texas as well. Actually, I'll do some research for you that these are men who, who this is what they, this is what, this is what they do. Now that being said, that group is often African American men because there are many women out there who are looking to be gang banged by black men while they're having black. I have a question. Yes. Is it wrong? I don't think it is, but I think our culture and our community might think it's wrong if you are attracted, I'm not attracted to a lot of men a lot.

48:38 It's very hard for me to like them. Okay. Doesn't gonna make it hard. It's gonna be hard to get your gang bang then if you're not. I know. And, and, and a lot of our friends have told me this, you know, you can't be picky. I can, you can be it into your body. You can be as picture as you want. This is my vagina, this is my mouth. Thank you. My is my, this is, yeah, this is not, and so I know once they tell me that they're off the list, but the ones who are very supportive, and I find that that is really hard in the community. And that's why we can't, I can't find like certain people now. Now if I'm just in it for eh show, I need you to film. Everybody has to be on only fans, whatever, whatever. Then I don't care.

49:19 But if it's for me and not a show. Fantasy. You get to care. You, you get to care. It's better to have the fantasy for five years before living it out than rushing it and having go, oh man. So definitely, definitely screwed. You get, you get to, so start the process. I'm, I am, I am. I'm thinking I want a gang bang for my 50th. Right. So let's, you have, you have a two year, two year timeline, and, and you'll just, you'll just, you know, um, you'll just work your way through the process. I like to go No, no, you, you'll work, you'll work your way through the process. Um, so when you go to parties, you may find, huh, there's a guy that works really well with you and, and your husband and on a two for one. So he seemed pretty cool. So he can go on the, on the potential list.

50:01 Yeah. Um, the, the, so first you get to have it. You get to have, you get to have what you want. You get to have who you want. You get to have it how you want, you get to have it where you want, and you get to have it when you want. But because it is, you are working with civilians and not, you're not gonna hire five professionals who know how to do this. It's, the timeline is further. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. Because you have to work through people's, uh, discomfort about performing in the front of other men. Um, so some guys that you'll, so we go to parties, go, go to your parties, pay attention who seems really ex, who loves, who's the first one out there to fuck in front other people? Who's the first one to let him let himself get his dick sucked on the dance floor. So clearly that's an exhibitionist, usually me.

50:41 So you're, you're one of the team. You're so smart. You're one, you're one of them. So you're, you're on the team. You, sir, are one of the five guys. There you go. Um, so you'll, you'll start. So with, with this goal, I'm very practical minded. So with this goal, you'll start looking at men at parties differently. It's like, huh? Because yes, bodies are important, but in a gang bang, the energy's important because you want none of the men freaking out. 'cause you don't wanna have to, um, babysit their emotions to make them feel safe enough to get hard. You wanna be able to go fuck and take me away, calgon take me away. Okay. Um, okay, so one, when you do get the gang bang, you do, if you have, do you have any good girlfriends? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you want one of them to be your, your, your, um, handler.

51:22 So your job in the gang bang is just to fucking go there. And her job is to make sure that all safely sex protocols are being followed, condom are switched out as they need to be. Leg text gloves are used that they need to be. So her job is to not be in the scene. Her job is to be making sure that all the boxes are ticked. So you can just like be the slutty slut, slut having, having this amazing experience. Um, and she's gonna be the one to offer to offer water. She's gonna be the one to, you know, say, do you need some chocolate? Right? Um, you need some chocolate? Whatever your, whatever your, your snack of choice is. I, I totally 100% agree. There should be one of those for every party. I had one once and no, they, they're very, they're very important.

52:03 They're, they just said that way the guys can just, so, so no one has to, and she, you know, obviously she can, she can tickle a ball here and there, but her, her job mainly is to care. Take you, it's like a doula for, for labor and delivery. It is her, the, the, there's no name for her. I, I'm gonna call the, call the, call her the, the, uh, the, the, the gang bang doula. But the doula, her job is to make sure that you have the best experience and manage as an interfaith between your body and everybody else in the room, and gatekeeper, and make sure that you know, the looky-loos, don't get too close and don't touch you without permission. That kind of thing. So you can just go there and have that. Oh man. I'm so glad that we brought that up because you know, she's been talking about it for a while.

52:46 I know. And we brought it up on the show a few times. And the thing is, is that I am not a very good host of things. Like I'm not good at events. Like that's always been her thing. And so I'm going, logistically this sounds like a mess. Yeah. And I don't even know where to start now, do you think, because now there's so many, I mean, if you don't mind me putting, talking about the pill. Okay. So Adam gets hurt easily. Like it's not a problem. He and I have a beautiful sex life. Like people would be jealous and I'm an exhibitionist, so I love to perform in front. Yeah. And so, but as he's gotten older and he, we started playing at the clubs, you.

53:28 It's not very easily his, he's very distracted by other women. Right. So as an exhibitionist, I love, I love to put on a show, but then as soon as I see somebody getting hot over our show and, and then I'm all sudden, I'm looking at them and I'm like, and things are changing. So I, I try to, and I try to, uh, pill, it's called Ro, it's called ro RO, and it's, it lasts, you take it as a lozenge and it lasts 36 hours. And essentially it's only when I'm aroused, it makes it larger almost and harder in a way. It's the, it's You don't get from a gas station, do you? No. No. Uhuh, no. It's doctor prescribed. Yeah.

54:08 Yeah. Yeah. I am perfectly fine with that kind of thing because whatever helps a person be more relaxed in the situation, have more confidence. In the beginning of the, of the Viagra era, I was, I was like, no, I, I, I, I took pride in making it safe enough for my partner to, to perform, but then I realized, wait a minute. If it makes it easier for him to be more focused on what's going on than just his dick, I'm fine with it. So if any kind of, um, medication helps you. Perform in a way that you like and also helps you stay more present? I'm down. I'm totally down for that. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's like parts the part Viagra. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, it, it, it works very well.

54:50 Um, and if I, I don't really need it. Yeah. But it helps whenever we're putting on a show, like if we know that we're going to the club or we know that we're gonna be at a house party, we know that we're gonna have an audience, um, it just takes the mind out it a little bit. Perfect. Go for it. And that's like a lot of men don't, they still have that mind that women are gonna make fun of them. I was ashamed a lot because a lot of women will make fun of them. What? I'm not enough for you. I mean, so they, they see, and for me it's the opposite. Or for me, I'm, I'm, I'm okay. I don't care. Like be honest with yourself because you trying to shove a soft dick inside of me is just such a turnoff.

55:35 It, it is for sure. So I, um, um, so you can be someone out there saying, it's fine with me. 'cause also they have to remember, it doesn't, unless you're doing injectables, it doesn't give you an erection. It just makes it more able, when you feel safe enough to expose yourself in that way. Yes. So if you are trying to shove, if your dick is not hard in public, you are not really, my first husband was like that. He actually, it broke his heart when he realized he was not exhibitionistic. He was actually super introverted and he could not, he did not perform well at swing parties and he could not make porno movies with me. And he had hoped maybe he could. Um, and so that was a real heartbreak, ego break for him. Um, yeah, because he had, he had a really nice dick and he had some good mood, you know, I mean, and did the whole thing.

56:16 So I, I felt bad for him, but he never, if he had asked at me, asked me outright to quit porn, I would've kicked him to the curb and he just, and that's neither here nor there. So if you're not, if you're not action exhibitionist, the drugs barely help. Emotionally. Oh, I've told that before. Yeah. No, because they don't wondering about, unless you use an injection caverject, which is going to absolutely get you hard, even if you're in the middle of grief because it is a chemical direct injection into, into the, um, corpus cavernosum, um, your emotion should be in part of your erection. And so men who really can't perform well, either in public, in a pressure situation or with condoms, probably should not go to swing parties or just go to swing parties and eat a lot of pussy.

57:05 Yeah. Well, there's some that you, you can see. Yeah, I have, and well, I've noticed that. And then I did recently, um, was with somebody and he did two things that I absolutely love. He couldn't get hard with me. And he said to his wife, Hey, honey, can, can you help? Because that's what I do in the very, very beginning. I would always be like, I, I'll help you. And so he did that and I was like, that right there was was you like, you know, you're, you don't have to let, you don't have to try and you don't, aren't, you know, asking me to take care of you because obviously I can't. Um, that was one thing he did. And then I can't remember the second thing.

57:46 Um. I don't know. I mean, I, I know that was the primary thing you were very excited about because that doesn't happen very often. Yeah. You know, a lot of times these guys, they wanna pretend like it's not happening or it's gonna go away in just a second. You know, let's just keep trying this. And it's obviously a major turnoff for her. And, you know, it, it hasn't happened very often, but when it's happened to me, I go straight to her and she's my security anyway. So it's like I know that she can pull me out of that. Uh, but I, I know a, a a lot of guys that they're just gonna continue on. Yeah. Yeah. And, but pretend it's not happy, you can't talk about it.

58:26 So the, there's still a lot of emotional constipation in the swing community as well. Um, because we don't have good role models for healthy, masculine, um, um, alternative ways of being. Um, yeah. Uh, so. And also when dealing with our age category, right? It's just there. So people your age are on the cusp of the old way of being raised and then the new culture. So it, it's, it's, you know, the, the, the anti-sex things got into you early because you're old enough that still have been the way that the raised kids, you know, in the eighties. Right? Right. Um, I mean, I'm just, I'm barely old enough.

59:06 If I'd had a baby from my first intercourse, they'd be turning 48 this year. So I'm, I'm old enough to be both of your parents, but I'm no one's parents, so it's not creepy. Um, are you my mom? I, I've, I've fantasized, uh, enough about you to where it is very not creepy. Like do you get that a lot? I mean, because I'm excited. I, I, I, I, I do. I mean, obviously there are a lot of guys who are now in their twenties who, who you know, oh, I really, really wanna fuck you. I I don't say this to him. It's like, sweetheart, you, you couldn't, you couldn't, you would die with a hand. You, no, you can't. Did they get, but what, what else do they know? Right? They, they, they see porn and they think, yeah, being a man is all about this. Yeah. And that all women want this. And then all the cougars, they want this because cougars seeking cubs and all the things.

59:50 So if your only experience of age gap sex is porn, it's super skewed, a little bit shallow and sort of narrow, right? I can make porn's not about feelings. Porn's not about feelings, which of course, women in the real world do care about. So I tell people I'm never with somebody because young or because old, or because black or because white, if I like you enough. To be in your bed. Your bed. I'm going to like, whatever you have between your legs, we're gonna have a great time. I do everything I can with anyone. I'm with what that actually is, depends. But I'm never gonna turn you down because you're 20. I'll turn you down because you're an asshole.

1:00:31 And you know, do, do, do like black men. I like men. If I like you, your Melan nation and your age over 18 doesn't hurt. And if I don't like you, it doesn't help. Gotcha. I, I don't, I don't fetishize race. So if you're an asshole, you're an asshole. I don't care that you're age a beautiful version of whatever it is you are, you're a jerk. I don't want anything to do with you. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. They, we don't tell boys this, that, you know, actually, you know, and I tell men all the time, it's really important, you know, it's a woman needs to feel safe next to you. She feel she needs to feel, she needs to be next to a calm person who is a safe space. Because if she's not feeling safe, she cannot feel sexy. 'cause in our culture, sex is much more dangerous for women. So if she feels any kinda weird energy coming off of you, anxiety, tension, expectation, you know, barely controlled rage or narcissism, we're not going to relax enough with you to wanna be sexual with you.

1:01:24 Yeah. You know? But you know, it does. I feel like we also have to educate our women in that because a lot of women are still, and they stay in relationships that are that hard, that don't have men like what I have that are like, you're, you know, women empowerment, like you do your thing. But Tara, you know, so they say it takes an average of seven attempts of before a person to leave their abuser. And so my abuse was so subtle and emotional, it took me 18 years to leave, right? Mm-hmm. Because they were smart enough to never actually lay a hand on me. That would've been instant. Deal breaker, but yes, yes. They weren't, they weren't stupid. They were other kinds of things, but they weren't stupid. And so they knew Yeah, they had one of each, so they, they knew.

1:02:06 They knew that, that if I never said, handed me, it's over. They just knew. And I knew because I be, but back in the, back in the eighties, abuse was only ever spoken of at that point as physical abuse. The whole narcissistic abuse had, it's only been talked about what, for five years. I mean, it's brand new in terms of a thing that we now talk about. They recognize that narcissistic abuse is as, you know, often part and parcel with physical abuse, but certainly its own, its own level of, of bad. Right? Oh yeah, yeah. You know, we'll have to do this again. We'll have to have another go, you know, and we're actually gonna go ahead and wrap up. Uh, but Nina, before we let you go, uh, if you could tell our audience where they can find you, what you got going on, how to support your work.

1:02:52 The floor is yours. Well, thank you so much. Uh, first great conversation. We need more of it. Um, the main places to find me online are Nina live, LIVE. That is my Safe for Work, um, platform. It's got my blog there and you people who wanna just come and talk to me about anything can schedule, uh, zoom calls, uh, safe for work, zoom calls, uh, and consult with me on anything. So at Nina live and nina.com is where my video store is and where I do, uh, there 20 hours a week and hang out. Um, and that's where we can do naked things and um, you know, naked cam to cam and that kind of stuff.

1:03:34 So nina.com is, I'll be seeing you there, that nina.com is not safe for work and Nina live is safe for work and both of those places are where you can contact, uh, talk to me live. my Instagram is. Miss Nina Hartley. There are many fake Insta out there. And my Twitter handle at Nina land, N-I-N-A-L-A-N-D. And there are plenty of fake Ninas out there. I'm not on TikTok. So if you see anybody on TikTok claiming to be me, you can report their asses. 'cause I am not on, they, they still, I can see it, they steal my videos and then say things really send me money and I'll call you. It's just, it's just such a scam. And, and I, oh God, I, I had to have a full-time person just going and putting out those brush fires, which I don't.

1:04:18 Um, so, um, I'm on Instagram, I'm on x I'm not on, I'm not on, um, TikTok. I do have a Facebook, but I don't, I saw your Facebook pop up on, but there are, there are lots of fake, there are lots of fake Facebooks there as well, so I'm not quite sure what my Facebook handle is. It's okay. We'll find it for you. But when it comes to social media, I'm very much a boomer. I'm just, I've just come back. I've started making movies again. Um, I am doing everything but, uh, what we call PIV intercourse. So, um, kink, femdom, girl, girl help, help two other people have sex. Um, help you fuck him, help him fuck her, uh, that kind of thing. So, I love, I love being on camera, but, but my, but my, again, I gave it the, my vagina has given at the office and I am post-menopausal, and the, the level of penis that I can take and enjoy is not camera worthy.

1:05:13 I, I like a, a nice five inch here. So nice four inches. Nice humanized thing. Good enough for satisfaction. You know that, that answers the age old question that guys seem to wanna know is, you know, does size matter? Got it. For some women it does. For some women it does. So I'm gonna, so I'm gonna say 15% of women are two size queens, seven plus, or don't even fucking talk to them. They're built very roomy. That's what they like. They're like a certain level of discomfort, intensity that works for them. 15% of women can take more than six, but don't need more than six. But, you know, in the right situation, they could, that leaves 15, 15, 30, at least 70% of women out there happy with sticks and under happy with sticks and under.

1:05:53 Yeah, like, nice. So the, the perfect size. Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely, I'm definitely the, I'm definitely the under six. I'm definitely the under six crowd because yeah, I want to, I want at some point in the process to be able, for you to be able to go hog fucking wild, crazy monkey shit. Like, fuck me. Sometimes I wanna be nailed into the bed for 20 seconds at a time. But to do that, to really feel all of, I like seeing all that masculine energy come in. For me, a penis is just a delivery system for, for masculine energy. And so I, I like a good deep injection, but for that, so what, what is good and deep for me is a different size than what is good and deep for her. And so I want a size penis that he can, if he wants to just go full till boogie and not have it go out.

1:06:37 Right. And for that cheese o cheese yaa and, and we're done tapping out. So, um, for me that, so for that kind of sec it's five inches for sure. Okay, well, sorry you got distracted. Hi, Dina. Dina, thank you for nina.com for Not Safe for work, Nuna live safe for work, and I look forward to talking with anybody about anything. Hell yes, go and find her, follow her and support everything that she's doing because people like Nina are the reason that these conversations even exist. Seriously, we're so grateful to have you on here, Nina. Thank you. Well, we'll see. We'll love to do it again sometime and we'll talk about how does gang bang planning. So just to think about, I'm gonna get a gang bang for my 50th. Yes, absolutely.

1:07:17 And, and that, and that, and that takes the pressure off of, you know, the, okay. Okay. Because you can plan it, you can, you can totally plan it. Can hell yeah. Yes. So before we close out head tomy com, right now, every episode, every blog, video clips, merch, our events calendar, guest bios of the awesome Nina Hartley. Mm-hmm. Uh, and our hundred percent anonymous confessional are all right there. That's a great thing. Anonymous. I love it. Yeah. It's my favorite. And if you're not subscribed yet, whatcha waiting for Hit that Follow button on Spotify Apple Podcast. Wherever you're listening, it's free and helps us. More than you know. Yeah. And leave us a five star review there because you know what? This show was freaking awesome today and I loved it.

1:07:58 So definitely. And share this episode, send it to your partner, drop it in your group chat, post it on your communities. If this conversation did anything for you, pass it on. Yeah. And you can also catch us at uh, beyond Monogamy. We are streaming on full swap radio do com. So go ahead and check that out along with the cavalcade of other adult podcasters. And guys, and if you're anywhere near San Antonio, we wanna see you in person. We are going to be at Club Eden, San Antonio, June 20th at 9:00 PM Come hang out with us. Yeah. Details are on the site. The events tab, www not beyond com. Uh, Nina, thank you again. We really appreciate you. We frigging love you man. Thank you.

1:08:38 Thanks so much, so much. Well thank you. Have a great rest of your day and thanks for having me on. I so enjoyed it, appreci, you and that. We thank you guys for listening and we'll see you guys next week. Bye.