Non-Monogamy, Attachment & Communication — ft. Sex Therapist Martha Kauppi

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Alright y'all, before we
dive in, a quick heads up.

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This show is raw, real, and
definitely not rated pg.

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We're talking about adult themes, sexual
content, and the kind of stuff you

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probably don't want blasting through your
speakers at work or around your kits.

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So grab some headphones, pour your
drink of choice and get comfy.

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Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not
licensed therapists, counselors, or sex.

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Couches.

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Sex coaches.

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Sex coaches, not sex couches

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or just a couple of people sharing our
lives, experiences and sexy adventures.

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An ethical non-monogamy.

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So with that, pull up a
chair and enjoy the show.

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And.

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Hello, and welcome to another
episode of Beyond Monogamy.

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I'm Adam.

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And

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I'm Pris.

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And today we are back with another
amazing conversation for you all.

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But before we jump in real quick, if
you love this show, if it's helped you,

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made you laugh, made you feel seen,
or taught you something new, please

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do us a favor and hit that, like that
subscribe button, that share button,

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and most importantly, leave us a
review because those reviews are huge.

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Mm-hmm.

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For helping this podcast grow in this
lifestyle and the relationship space.

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Seriously, they make a massive difference
and we appreciate every single one

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of you who takes the time to do that.

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Absolutely.

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Now, with that being said, today we
are sitting down with Martha Kauppi.

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Martha is a relationship and sexuality
professional who works deeply in the areas

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of intimacy communication attachment.

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Nervous system regulation.

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Mm-hmm.

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And helping people build more connected,
conscious and satisfying relationships,

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including folks in alternative and
non-traditional relationship structures.

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Her work focuses a lot on how our bodies,
our emotions, and our relationship

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patterns all connect, and how we
can start breaking old cycles and

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building relationships that actually
feel safe, sexy, and sustainable.

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Yes.

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So today we're gonna be talking
about connection, desire, emotional

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patterns, non-monogamy, healing,
communication, and all that real stuff

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that shows up once the fun part starts.

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And we're really, really excited
to get her perspective, her

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work and what she's seeing with
couples and individuals right now.

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Yes.

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So beyond monogamy family, settle
in, maybe pull up a chair, grab

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your favorite drink, and let's
welcome Martha to the show.

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Welcome, Martha.

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Yes.

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Thank you Martha.

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Thank you for being here.

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Thank you.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yes.

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Oh, we are, we are
tickled pink to have you.

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I'm, I'm very excited.

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Uh, now I'm gonna just dive right
in and I'm sure you're used to that.

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I, I guarantee you get tons of questions.

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Uh, but I'm really curious about
basically how you got here.

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Mm-hmm.

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As far as the, the
non-monogamy portion of it.

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What, what originally pulled
you into this line of work?

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Uh, that's a really interesting question.

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So I am an ASEC certified sex
therapist, so that's my kind

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of licensing and certification.

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And when I was in therapy school,
which is a master's degree first, and

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sometimes people go onto a PhD, but
when I was in my master's program,

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I was taking a relationship therapy
course, couples therapy they call

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it, I don't call it couples therapy.

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I call it relationship therapy
because we're not all in couples.

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I asked, you know, do you ever work
with people who are in consensually

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non-monogamous relationships
or polyamorous relationships?

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And I asked about this because
my brother has been polyamorous

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for his entire adult life.

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And so it's just sort of part of my
sort of family system that's part of,

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that's an option in life and it's part
of life and it's a effective, normal,

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healthy way of being in a relationship.

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So I asked about it.

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And as an aside, I also am in an
open relationship, so I just thought

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let's get this into the conversation.

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And the professor who I really loved
and learned a lot from, had a really

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bad answer which was I've worked
with a number of clients who are

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in polyamorous relationships, but.

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It seems like one or other or the
other of them always has a parent

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who has a personality disorder.

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Okay, so first of all,
let me just frame this up.

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This was a little while ago, so this
wasn't like this year or anything.

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So there's a cohort effect
probably but I did think, gee,

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that's an interesting answer.

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First of all, I'm thinking privately
in my mind, I'm thinking about my

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brother, I'm thinking about me.

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I'm thinking, gee, I don't wanna say
my mother didn't have a personality

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disorder, but still, that seems
pretty pathologizing to me, right?

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That's a really intriguing answer.

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On the one hand, I was excited to hear
that he had worked with people in open

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relationship structures, and then on
the other hand, I was like, well, that's

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an interesting conclusion to come to as
the thing that you bring forward, first,

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it's kind of like a rainy
cloud hanging over, you know?

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Yeah.

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It's just a pathologizing frame.

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Mm-hmm.

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Really like, wow, some
sort of psychopathology

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leads to this way of being.

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Mm-hmm.

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And as a queer woman I'm used to that
kind of thinking like why are you gay?

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Why are you queer?

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Probably you were abused by your father
or abused by your mother, or in love

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with your mother, or hated your father.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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And the truth of the matter is there's
absolutely no evidence that there's any

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kind of psychopathology going on with
open relationships or with being queer.

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So anyway, this is how.

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I got interested in this
as a research subject.

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Like I was like okay.

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If that's sort of the common thinking
around this from somebody who's pretty

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open-minded and has, he's working
with people in open relationships.

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He is willing to, he is open to
it, he is in the conversation.

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This is great.

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And that's the first thing.

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Then obviously we need some more data.

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Yeah.

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I need, right.

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Yeah.

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I need to be able to train some
therapists to be able to do a

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better job with this, basically.

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So, I did my research as part of
my master's program in polyamory.

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I was specifically looking for how
long are people's open relationships

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and what happens with the intimacy
in an open relationship when you add

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another partner, because I had read.

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Everywhere I looked, I read the on deep
intimacy, true intimacy, real intimacy,

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real attachment only can happen in
a relationship between two people.

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And I was like, well, that's
abundantly obviously not the

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case because I'm living it.

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My brother's living it, so
somebody's missing something and

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maybe it would be good if we were
part of somebody's statistics.

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Yeah.

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So that was, that's how I got started.

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Taking it to the next level beyond
just, I wanna be a therapist who

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works with open relationships as well
as every kind of relationship, but I

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wanna be a therapist who also knows
something about it beyond my own

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personal experience and what I can read.

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Cat Lee.

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That is so interesting.

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That's so,

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yeah.

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That's so

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intriguing, man.

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You

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know, that's, this is my favorite
part of the show is normally the very

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beginning when we have our guests on,
because I like to see what brought them.

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This is a very specific
space that we're in.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and it's, I've never really
walked into that question and had

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somebody answer and go, it just
kind of fell into my lap, you know?

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It just, it just never happens that way.

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You know, there's normally a, a lot
that, that brings this, the cosmos are

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just aligned just right to bring this
person into this space at this time.

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And, uh, and so I, I just, I
love that it's so intriguing.

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It is.

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I mean, the fact that you, that your
brother was already, you know, living

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that kind of life and then you're living
that kind of life, just shows you that

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there's a lot of people out there that.

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I need that kind of navigating like, you
know, navigation to kind of help them kind

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of work through it and stuff like that.

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So That's awesome.

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That's great.

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You brought a lot to the table, so
Yeah, it's a lot of knowledge, personal

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knowledge, you know, which helps
you, just get more into it, more in

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depth and understand it even better.

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Yeah.

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That, and it's really has my own
relationship experience and my brothers

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Very directly challenges a lot of
assumptions about open relationships.

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And so specifically the idea that,
oh, an open relationship just

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can't stand the test of time.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or there isn't deep intimacy.

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You can't really have
a solid relationship.

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It's something that's gonna be
fleeting, you're gonna grow out of it.

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And, um.

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It's gonna, when you get a new partner,
it's gonna destroy your old, like

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I knew those things were not true.

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They couldn't be true.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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They just couldn't because I had
the evidence right in front of me.

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And so it turned out to be a really
smart idea to do some research about it.

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And now today my relationships structure
is somewhere in the realm of, Hmm,

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somewhere between kitchen table,
polyamory, probably I would call it that.

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And I have a queer partner of 30 years
and another partner of almost 25 years.

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So Wow.

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Clearly those longevity ideas, like
this is just something that's, you

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can't make last in the long term.

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I'm like, well that is so obviously
not true that I don't even know where

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you could possibly have been looking.

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To get advice,

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everybody.

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I mean, my long relationships period.

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Yeah.

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Well, everybody

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thinks that they're an expert.

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Yes.

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Everyone.

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Yeah, that's for sure.

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You know, it's

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the same.

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Well, you know, we, we had a tax business
and it seemed like everybody that came in

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to get their taxes done had a friend who
was an expert and they knew everything.

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And, and it's, it's no different here.

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You know, we, we create, uh, we have
our podcast, but we also create content

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on TikTok and we try to educate as much
as possible just from our experience.

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And everybody just knows mm-hmm.

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That open relationships and polyamorous
relations, they just don't work.

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You, you can't last more.

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It's just, it just doesn't have it.

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Yeah.

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And I've heard this over and over
again, and I just don't believe it

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because I am an old school, uh, lover
of love and, you know, I, I have always

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been that, that person that I just.

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I love, love, and I love when
people get to experience that.

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And I don't believe that that,
uh, you know, it's one person

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with one person forever.

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You know, sometimes it, it
works for certain people.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's not for everyone, and this is
the kind of the funny thing here.

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I'm so glad that you here.

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I was just about to tell you that.

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'cause, um, Martha, we
can't afford therapists.

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And so you're here now.

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I'm gonna take full advantage of this now.

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So just to kind of give you an idea, and
most of our listeners probably already

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know this, but, uh, we had started out
and the very beginning as swingers.

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And so we were, uh, all
about the sexual aspect.

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My beautiful wife here has had
experience in that lifestyle

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with a previous person to me.

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Uh, but it was kind of toxic.

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Uh, so when we got together.

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She started telling me about this
lifestyle that she was previously

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a part of, and I said, oh my
goodness, I would love that.

240
00:11:46,287 --> 00:11:47,247
That sounds great.

241
00:11:47,247 --> 00:11:51,267
And of obviously as, as
a, what, a 28-year-old?

242
00:11:51,267 --> 00:11:51,327
Yeah.

243
00:11:51,657 --> 00:11:52,947
I was like, are you kidding me?

244
00:11:52,947 --> 00:11:54,447
I can have sex with other women.

245
00:11:54,447 --> 00:11:57,447
You know, it just seemed
very mind blowing of an idea.

246
00:11:58,167 --> 00:12:02,517
Uh, and then as we got into the
lifestyle and I started realizing

247
00:12:02,517 --> 00:12:09,267
that there was less, uh, emphasis on
experiences and more on connection.

248
00:12:09,297 --> 00:12:09,417
Mm-hmm.

249
00:12:09,747 --> 00:12:14,777
More on friendships, more on, on,
relationships in just the sexual

250
00:12:14,777 --> 00:12:17,287
portion of it as time went on.

251
00:12:18,052 --> 00:12:20,332
We had friends of ours
say, well, we're poly.

252
00:12:20,992 --> 00:12:22,372
And I said, well, what is that?

253
00:12:23,032 --> 00:12:27,242
And so they explained to me very,
very rudimentary but they basically

254
00:12:27,242 --> 00:12:29,882
said, well, we're married, but we
date others outside of the marriage.

255
00:12:29,882 --> 00:12:32,447
Now I know that there's, now
there's way more to it than that.

256
00:12:32,447 --> 00:12:32,607
Yeah.

257
00:12:32,612 --> 00:12:34,952
That it was really kind
of dumb in it down.

258
00:12:34,952 --> 00:12:38,742
But for somebody who didn't know anything
about it, this sounded enticing to me.

259
00:12:39,232 --> 00:12:44,362
Because I feel like I have a, personally,
a lot of love that I can share.

260
00:12:44,362 --> 00:12:48,472
And I know that like I love my wife
and I love her in certain ways that

261
00:12:48,922 --> 00:12:52,852
I don't, I know I couldn't love
somebody else with, but that doesn't

262
00:12:52,852 --> 00:12:54,562
mean that I cant love them as well.

263
00:12:55,462 --> 00:12:59,782
I love all of my friends, like I
love, love them, uh, so we decided

264
00:12:59,782 --> 00:13:05,232
to try Poly, and we did poly for,
we were polyamorous for five years.

265
00:13:05,292 --> 00:13:05,382
Mm-hmm.

266
00:13:05,712 --> 00:13:08,292
We went into it with no.

267
00:13:09,072 --> 00:13:12,192
Real help as far as guidance.

268
00:13:12,612 --> 00:13:17,292
Um, we did our best to find
information as much as we could.

269
00:13:17,592 --> 00:13:19,452
We tried to talk to people about it.

270
00:13:19,792 --> 00:13:22,762
But a lot of times when you ask
people simple questions, they

271
00:13:22,762 --> 00:13:24,502
start going, you can Google it.

272
00:13:24,922 --> 00:13:25,552
You don't need me.

273
00:13:25,552 --> 00:13:25,612
Yeah.

274
00:13:25,732 --> 00:13:26,572
You can Google this.

275
00:13:26,577 --> 00:13:26,717
Yeah.

276
00:13:26,962 --> 00:13:27,892
And that's, that's kind

277
00:13:27,892 --> 00:13:32,157
of, and everybody it, everybody has their
own way of, they do appalling, like you

278
00:13:32,157 --> 00:13:34,047
had mentioned earlier, kitchen table.

279
00:13:34,047 --> 00:13:34,347
Right.

280
00:13:34,977 --> 00:13:36,747
A lot of people do not know what that is.

281
00:13:36,747 --> 00:13:39,477
And so when we were getting, when
we first got into it, we were, I was

282
00:13:39,477 --> 00:13:41,607
like, yeah, I don't, I don't think so.

283
00:13:41,607 --> 00:13:42,897
We, we really can't do this.

284
00:13:42,897 --> 00:13:45,267
This is not my, I'm very territorial.

285
00:13:45,867 --> 00:13:46,197
Yeah.

286
00:13:46,197 --> 00:13:49,977
Um, and so I was like, there's no
way this could ha this can work.

287
00:13:50,307 --> 00:13:51,957
And we tried it.

288
00:13:52,247 --> 00:13:53,687
We did it and it.

289
00:13:54,167 --> 00:13:55,787
It wasn't, wasn't for me.

290
00:13:55,967 --> 00:13:56,537
You know, it really

291
00:13:56,537 --> 00:13:56,957
wasn't.

292
00:13:56,957 --> 00:14:00,527
And so out of this five
years that we attempted

293
00:14:00,657 --> 00:14:03,687
And we did it together
and we did it separately.

294
00:14:04,017 --> 00:14:06,737
So we, we dated others as a couple.

295
00:14:06,737 --> 00:14:06,857
Mm-hmm.

296
00:14:07,217 --> 00:14:10,547
But we also dated others
separately as individuals.

297
00:14:10,847 --> 00:14:12,987
And I was relatively successful.

298
00:14:12,987 --> 00:14:15,027
I was able to find connections.

299
00:14:15,237 --> 00:14:17,457
My wife is a bit more
selective than I am though.

300
00:14:17,937 --> 00:14:20,487
Uh, and so it was a bit more
difficult for her to, to make

301
00:14:20,487 --> 00:14:23,817
connections and not to mention she
just really wasn't enjoying it.

302
00:14:23,822 --> 00:14:24,032
Mm-hmm.

303
00:14:24,417 --> 00:14:27,657
And so that's where we understood
that we weren't communicating

304
00:14:27,657 --> 00:14:29,127
properly about this whole thing.

305
00:14:29,827 --> 00:14:33,037
And one day it came to a pass
where she basically said she

306
00:14:33,037 --> 00:14:34,207
didn't wanna be poly anymore.

307
00:14:34,207 --> 00:14:37,837
And I'm okay with that because
my relationship has always been

308
00:14:37,837 --> 00:14:40,207
my number one priority now.

309
00:14:40,567 --> 00:14:41,467
I just gave you a lot.

310
00:14:41,887 --> 00:14:45,187
I know, but I, I, I promise
you I'm heading somewhere.

311
00:14:45,687 --> 00:14:52,007
With all of that being said, we decided to
focus more so on the sexual aspect of it.

312
00:14:52,037 --> 00:14:55,247
And I basically told her, I
said, look, I need connection.

313
00:14:55,512 --> 00:14:57,112
I am not transactional.

314
00:14:57,382 --> 00:14:59,962
I cannot just go out and
have sex with random people.

315
00:15:00,022 --> 00:15:02,377
I wanna like them, I want to
have a connection with them.

316
00:15:02,377 --> 00:15:06,022
I wanna have some sort of relationship
with them, even if it's not romantic.

317
00:15:06,102 --> 00:15:09,672
Uh, and so we've been exploring
and have adapted the friends

318
00:15:09,672 --> 00:15:11,652
with benefits to our repertoire.

319
00:15:12,202 --> 00:15:16,402
And it's wor it works for us
and it works very well for us.

320
00:15:16,402 --> 00:15:18,232
And that's, that's where we're at.

321
00:15:18,572 --> 00:15:24,802
But I always found it very interesting
because in this world, there's,

322
00:15:25,642 --> 00:15:27,322
you know, everybody just figures.

323
00:15:27,382 --> 00:15:32,242
Well, you are, you are non-monogamous,
so that means you're swingers or you're

324
00:15:32,242 --> 00:15:34,042
non-monogamous, so that means you're poly.

325
00:15:34,042 --> 00:15:35,992
Like, we get asked these
questions and it's like, well.

326
00:15:36,622 --> 00:15:37,942
Yes and no.

327
00:15:37,942 --> 00:15:40,792
I mean, there's, and so then we
have to explain everything to 'em

328
00:15:40,792 --> 00:15:43,882
as far as the different branches of
non-monogamy and that sort of thing.

329
00:15:44,422 --> 00:15:48,742
There's a lot of ambiguity
over what this is.

330
00:15:49,282 --> 00:15:54,742
And I'm curious, I mean, you have
such great knowledge about this as

331
00:15:54,832 --> 00:15:59,482
far as polyamory is concerned, as
far as the romantic aspect of it.

332
00:15:59,982 --> 00:16:04,242
What, first off, what is the,
the biggest advice that you

333
00:16:04,242 --> 00:16:06,042
would give somebody who's new?

334
00:16:06,402 --> 00:16:06,582
Mm-hmm.

335
00:16:06,822 --> 00:16:12,232
Or considering the romantic
aspect of, of polyamory?

336
00:16:12,732 --> 00:16:17,532
Lemme see if I can answer the
question you're actually asking here.

337
00:16:17,532 --> 00:16:21,852
So, one of the challenges of
going from a, from swinging

338
00:16:21,852 --> 00:16:22,692
mm-hmm.

339
00:16:23,337 --> 00:16:23,557
To.

340
00:16:24,057 --> 00:16:29,577
So the distinction I would draw here
is to a form of consensually open

341
00:16:29,757 --> 00:16:32,457
that involves romantic feelings.

342
00:16:32,957 --> 00:16:35,957
You might call that poly, you might
call that friends with benefits.

343
00:16:35,957 --> 00:16:40,697
I don't care what you call it, but
there's a distinction because swinging

344
00:16:40,697 --> 00:16:43,057
doesn't always involve emotions.

345
00:16:43,987 --> 00:16:45,907
It does always involve sex.

346
00:16:46,407 --> 00:16:54,077
So a form of consensually open that
involves sex and emotions is a real

347
00:16:54,077 --> 00:16:58,967
shift and it's gonna present some
challenges probably along the way.

348
00:16:58,967 --> 00:17:02,357
And you are gonna learn some stuff about
yourself, and you're probably gonna learn

349
00:17:02,357 --> 00:17:03,707
some stuff about your partner as well.

350
00:17:04,207 --> 00:17:07,022
So that's for sure.

351
00:17:07,022 --> 00:17:07,322
Right?

352
00:17:07,922 --> 00:17:08,192
Yeah.

353
00:17:08,522 --> 00:17:10,712
I wish everybody could.

354
00:17:11,447 --> 00:17:14,957
Find the support that they
need when they need it.

355
00:17:15,227 --> 00:17:15,317
Mm-hmm.

356
00:17:15,557 --> 00:17:17,897
And that's why I trained therapists.

357
00:17:17,897 --> 00:17:20,807
Primarily what I do is train
therapists to work with sex issues,

358
00:17:21,587 --> 00:17:23,957
including consensual non monogamies.

359
00:17:24,467 --> 00:17:30,137
And I wrote the book that I did because
I wanted people who maybe couldn't afford

360
00:17:30,227 --> 00:17:35,597
a therapist or didn't have access to
a CNM knowledgeable therapist to have

361
00:17:35,597 --> 00:17:38,247
a very substantial self-help manual.

362
00:17:38,757 --> 00:17:45,117
So I basically wrote a textbook for
therapists about working with consensual

363
00:17:45,117 --> 00:17:51,317
non monogamies and made it accessible to
both audiences, therapists, and people

364
00:17:51,317 --> 00:17:55,877
who are in open relationships so that
you can use it as a self-help manual.

365
00:17:55,877 --> 00:17:58,277
It's got a whole bunch of
worksheets and whatnot in it.

366
00:17:58,967 --> 00:18:00,317
So then.

367
00:18:01,232 --> 00:18:06,842
My mission here obviously is to help
people who are trying to navigate

368
00:18:06,842 --> 00:18:11,042
these kinds of spaces actually
get some meaningful support.

369
00:18:11,732 --> 00:18:18,212
And I like having the opportunity to
tell therapists what I think they need

370
00:18:18,212 --> 00:18:22,412
to know in terms of how to conceptualize
a case, how to break it down.

371
00:18:22,412 --> 00:18:22,502
Mm-hmm.

372
00:18:22,742 --> 00:18:25,802
How to think about the skills that
go into your open relationship, how

373
00:18:25,802 --> 00:18:30,122
to think about the challenges that
you're seeing, instead of just thinking

374
00:18:30,272 --> 00:18:31,502
you have more than one partner.

375
00:18:31,502 --> 00:18:32,432
There's your problem.

376
00:18:33,002 --> 00:18:36,422
If you didn't have more than one
partner, your partner wouldn't be

377
00:18:36,422 --> 00:18:40,112
jealous and you wouldn't be having all
the problems that you're having today.

378
00:18:40,112 --> 00:18:42,542
So I think monogamy is really
the solution to your problem.

379
00:18:43,052 --> 00:18:47,102
And my thought is, well that's pal
pathologizing and it's extremely

380
00:18:47,102 --> 00:18:50,462
limiting and it's gonna lose
you the client for good reason.

381
00:18:50,672 --> 00:18:51,032
Right?

382
00:18:51,062 --> 00:18:51,152
Mm-hmm.

383
00:18:51,167 --> 00:18:51,487
Mm-hmm.

384
00:18:51,872 --> 00:18:53,442
So let's try to.

385
00:18:53,942 --> 00:18:59,642
Help therapists and coaches be resourced
to do a little better of a job than that.

386
00:19:00,572 --> 00:19:06,842
And most importantly, let's help people
who are navigating difficulty in their

387
00:19:06,842 --> 00:19:08,582
relationships get the support they need.

388
00:19:09,082 --> 00:19:14,272
So to just sort of put all of this
together, when you think about me as

389
00:19:14,272 --> 00:19:20,182
a trainer of therapists therapists
by definition are seeing people in

390
00:19:20,242 --> 00:19:23,922
relationships that are having some
challenges, whether they're open

391
00:19:23,922 --> 00:19:27,852
relationships or whether they're
monogamous relationships, whether they're

392
00:19:27,852 --> 00:19:31,872
polyamorous, no matter how they're
defined, and no matter what they look like

393
00:19:31,872 --> 00:19:36,662
behaviorally, they're having challenges
or they wouldn't be asking for help.

394
00:19:37,412 --> 00:19:41,132
So it makes some kind of sense
that therapists are like.

395
00:19:41,822 --> 00:19:44,402
I don't think that can ever work
'cause I've never seen it work.

396
00:19:44,732 --> 00:19:45,122
Mm. And

397
00:19:45,122 --> 00:19:49,292
that's where I feel like you come in
and I come in to say, I've seen it work.

398
00:19:49,772 --> 00:19:49,892
Yeah.

399
00:19:50,162 --> 00:19:53,132
I'm a good example of
seeing it work, right?

400
00:19:53,137 --> 00:19:53,297
Mm-hmm.

401
00:19:53,397 --> 00:19:57,462
So when I start breaking it down, like
trying to figure out, okay, I'm working

402
00:19:57,462 --> 00:20:02,082
with a couple or a throuple or a quad
or whatever, and they're having this

403
00:20:02,082 --> 00:20:07,532
particular challenge, I wanna try to
break it down to understand where's

404
00:20:07,532 --> 00:20:13,322
the struggle, where are the growth
opportunities for all partners involved?

405
00:20:13,352 --> 00:20:19,742
Because the solution is not have a whole
different shape of relationship until the

406
00:20:19,742 --> 00:20:22,532
clients decide, actually it's not for me.

407
00:20:23,522 --> 00:20:28,742
And that's where I really wanna
just bow down and say, Pris, you're

408
00:20:28,862 --> 00:20:34,472
brilliant to be able to figure out
what's true for you and say it.

409
00:20:34,802 --> 00:20:36,632
I think that's tremendous.

410
00:20:36,632 --> 00:20:37,232
Good job.

411
00:20:37,982 --> 00:20:38,342
Thank you.

412
00:20:38,342 --> 00:20:38,672
Thank you.

413
00:20:39,172 --> 00:20:40,727
I mean, it was, people have a hard time.

414
00:20:40,827 --> 00:20:41,182
It was hard.

415
00:20:41,242 --> 00:20:45,502
Yes, it was very hard because although
I know that my husband loves me

416
00:20:45,532 --> 00:20:49,372
and I know that we have a family,
we have a relationship, it's very

417
00:20:49,372 --> 00:20:52,192
like, Ooh, is this what he wants?

418
00:20:52,192 --> 00:20:53,992
Is this really what he wants to do?

419
00:20:54,382 --> 00:20:55,702
Is this gonna break us?

420
00:20:55,702 --> 00:20:59,612
Or whatever, and so I had to sit
back and be like, oh, well, I

421
00:20:59,612 --> 00:21:02,312
mean, whatever happens, we're gonna
have to navigate through that.

422
00:21:02,982 --> 00:21:03,972
And it was news to me.

423
00:21:03,972 --> 00:21:09,042
So she told me afterwards, and I've
always told her, I said, look, if at any

424
00:21:09,042 --> 00:21:12,037
point, whether it's swinging, whether
it's poly, whatever it is, mm-hmm.

425
00:21:12,137 --> 00:21:15,432
If at any point you are
uncomfortable or you don't wanna

426
00:21:15,432 --> 00:21:17,442
do this anymore, or same with me.

427
00:21:17,942 --> 00:21:20,762
All it takes is one of us to
say, I don't want to do this

428
00:21:20,762 --> 00:21:23,282
anymore, and no questions asked.

429
00:21:23,462 --> 00:21:24,152
You got it.

430
00:21:24,302 --> 00:21:24,452
Yeah.

431
00:21:24,482 --> 00:21:28,022
Like, we're walking away from
it, no questions asked, because

432
00:21:28,022 --> 00:21:29,582
this is more important to me.

433
00:21:29,822 --> 00:21:31,352
And so we've always said that.

434
00:21:31,712 --> 00:21:34,922
And so when she told me afterwards,
after we worked out everything,

435
00:21:34,922 --> 00:21:36,062
she said she didn't wanna be poly.

436
00:21:36,062 --> 00:21:37,442
And we had conversations over it.

437
00:21:38,312 --> 00:21:40,112
She said, you know, I was really worried

438
00:21:40,412 --> 00:21:40,502
mm-hmm.

439
00:21:40,772 --> 00:21:43,592
That this was gonna be
the end of our marriage.

440
00:21:43,892 --> 00:21:44,407
I, I, 'cause

441
00:21:44,557 --> 00:21:45,307
you never know.

442
00:21:45,307 --> 00:21:45,607
Like

443
00:21:45,697 --> 00:21:46,027
Yeah.

444
00:21:46,027 --> 00:21:49,777
And that's what, and I, and I was like,
I was blown away by this because me

445
00:21:49,777 --> 00:21:53,527
personally, I was like, I, yes I am.

446
00:21:53,647 --> 00:21:55,807
I am non monogamous in my heart.

447
00:21:55,897 --> 00:21:57,187
I am by nature.

448
00:21:57,187 --> 00:22:02,137
I've felt this way since I was middle
school, high school, uh, this has

449
00:22:02,137 --> 00:22:03,607
always been something in my life.

450
00:22:04,207 --> 00:22:07,717
But for her, I would give up anything.

451
00:22:07,957 --> 00:22:08,587
You know what I mean?

452
00:22:08,917 --> 00:22:10,057
And so that just.

453
00:22:10,447 --> 00:22:14,287
I didn't realize it was that serious
until we had conversations about it.

454
00:22:14,587 --> 00:22:21,757
Now, the great thing about our time in
being polyamorous that we didn't, we

455
00:22:21,757 --> 00:22:25,477
didn't have this when we were swinging,
but when we became polyamorous is where

456
00:22:25,477 --> 00:22:27,727
we really learned how to communicate.

457
00:22:27,817 --> 00:22:27,907
Mm-hmm.

458
00:22:28,777 --> 00:22:35,267
Um, we thought that we knew how but as
we went along, we started realizing no,

459
00:22:35,447 --> 00:22:39,907
like we were on the surface communicating,
but there was a lot of uncomfortable

460
00:22:39,907 --> 00:22:43,117
conversations that needed to be had
that we weren't having with each other.

461
00:22:43,117 --> 00:22:43,207
Mm-hmm.

462
00:22:44,037 --> 00:22:47,337
And that's when we get the same
old question all the time, and

463
00:22:47,337 --> 00:22:48,387
I'm sure you've heard it before.

464
00:22:48,387 --> 00:22:49,857
You know how do you guys make it work?

465
00:22:49,857 --> 00:22:52,227
And it's like, well,
communication all the way,

466
00:22:52,727 --> 00:22:57,757
you know, and yet communication
is one of those words that

467
00:22:57,757 --> 00:22:59,647
doesn't quite have a definition.

468
00:22:59,647 --> 00:23:02,277
So, can I unpack what I think?

469
00:23:03,032 --> 00:23:04,857
Yes, yes, yes.

470
00:23:05,357 --> 00:23:08,057
Because I think it can be really
helpful to break it down a little bit

471
00:23:08,117 --> 00:23:12,957
and figure out where exactly you're
struggling because, communication is

472
00:23:12,957 --> 00:23:14,877
just, it's a very nebulous concept.

473
00:23:14,877 --> 00:23:19,557
So, so I'm gonna break down what
I call differentiation, which is a

474
00:23:20,057 --> 00:23:27,817
little basket of skills that enable
relationality, including your ability

475
00:23:27,817 --> 00:23:31,957
to have a difference of opinion
between two people and handle it well.

476
00:23:32,457 --> 00:23:37,317
So the first piece is to be able to
look inside yourself and figure out

477
00:23:37,317 --> 00:23:42,657
what do I think, feel, want, prefer,
believe, separate from what anybody else

478
00:23:42,837 --> 00:23:45,087
might want me to think, feel belief.

479
00:23:45,627 --> 00:23:49,317
So that was a hard thing that you
had to do, Pris, to figure out,

480
00:23:49,817 --> 00:23:51,827
okay, this is what I'm experiencing.

481
00:23:52,187 --> 00:23:52,337
Mm-hmm.

482
00:23:52,667 --> 00:23:57,497
It might make him uncomfortable, but you
had a way of checking in with yourself.

483
00:23:58,427 --> 00:24:00,437
Figuring out, okay, I am struggling.

484
00:24:00,437 --> 00:24:01,397
Why am I struggling?

485
00:24:01,397 --> 00:24:02,297
What's going on?

486
00:24:02,297 --> 00:24:03,257
What do I want?

487
00:24:03,347 --> 00:24:05,777
What seems like a
logical next step for me?

488
00:24:05,807 --> 00:24:07,667
And what do I need to
actually say about it?

489
00:24:08,387 --> 00:24:14,567
So the first part of that is the
look inside and being able to have

490
00:24:14,567 --> 00:24:20,747
that kind of honesty, self connection
moment where you can figure out

491
00:24:20,747 --> 00:24:22,067
what's actually true for you.

492
00:24:22,067 --> 00:24:24,857
Some people really struggle to do that.

493
00:24:24,857 --> 00:24:24,947
Mm-hmm.

494
00:24:25,517 --> 00:24:27,767
So that's the first piece.

495
00:24:27,767 --> 00:24:32,107
If you can't do that, you're not really
gonna have much luck opening your

496
00:24:32,107 --> 00:24:33,667
mouth and saying it to somebody else.

497
00:24:33,817 --> 00:24:36,727
So first you have to
do the internal piece.

498
00:24:36,847 --> 00:24:39,817
Then the second thing is
to bring that forward.

499
00:24:40,317 --> 00:24:46,707
So to, for me to share what I think,
feel want with somebody else who's

500
00:24:46,707 --> 00:24:52,617
important to me and who I think might
disagree, might be hard to hear if I have

501
00:24:52,617 --> 00:24:54,447
something to say to my partner, Joanne.

502
00:24:55,197 --> 00:24:57,327
I'm wondering how is she gonna receive it?

503
00:24:57,747 --> 00:25:02,517
But somehow I have to figure out,
this is something that I wanna share

504
00:25:03,477 --> 00:25:10,337
and then do so regardless of my fears
about how it's gonna land for her.

505
00:25:10,367 --> 00:25:13,517
If it's important for me to say it, I
have to figure it out and then say it.

506
00:25:14,387 --> 00:25:20,477
And then the third part is to be
able to lean in with curiosity.

507
00:25:21,257 --> 00:25:24,617
When somebody else shares something
with you, that's hard for you to hear.

508
00:25:25,547 --> 00:25:29,627
So Adam, this was your opportunity in the
conversation that you're talking about,

509
00:25:30,227 --> 00:25:37,637
where instead of saying, fuck you, we're
done to say, what's going on for you?

510
00:25:37,727 --> 00:25:39,077
What are you experiencing?

511
00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:40,637
Tell me what's not going well.

512
00:25:40,637 --> 00:25:41,927
Tell me what is going well?

513
00:25:41,927 --> 00:25:43,667
Tell me what are your dreams and desires?

514
00:25:43,667 --> 00:25:44,237
What do you want?

515
00:25:44,717 --> 00:25:45,857
Walk me through this.

516
00:25:46,697 --> 00:25:49,157
You don't actually have
to agree to do that.

517
00:25:49,657 --> 00:25:52,447
It's not the same as a
problem solving conversation.

518
00:25:52,447 --> 00:25:56,677
So this is different from how
are we gonna solve this impasse?

519
00:25:57,247 --> 00:25:59,467
This is really get to know you.

520
00:25:59,967 --> 00:26:04,407
And people get very confused about
that because not everybody in an open

521
00:26:04,407 --> 00:26:08,427
relationship would say, if my partner
says they don't wanna be in an open

522
00:26:08,427 --> 00:26:10,017
relationship, I'd be fine with that.

523
00:26:10,647 --> 00:26:14,607
Some people, they feel like it's
such a big aspect of who they

524
00:26:14,607 --> 00:26:18,927
are, that this might feel like a
really enormous impasse to them.

525
00:26:19,797 --> 00:26:26,037
And you don't have to know what the
solution is to sort of set aside your

526
00:26:26,037 --> 00:26:31,017
viewpoint and center somebody else's
for long enough to get to know the

527
00:26:31,017 --> 00:26:33,117
situation through somebody else's eyes.

528
00:26:33,777 --> 00:26:40,287
And that's really, it's a very nuanced
skillset that involves holding yourself

529
00:26:41,217 --> 00:26:43,052
with respect, standing up for yourself.

530
00:26:43,842 --> 00:26:49,332
Accurately representing yourself,
possibly many times under stress

531
00:26:50,082 --> 00:26:55,122
and respectfully holding somebody
else and their perspective.

532
00:26:55,622 --> 00:26:56,882
And that's tricky.

533
00:26:57,062 --> 00:26:58,232
And underneath.

534
00:26:58,232 --> 00:26:59,822
So those are the three skills.

535
00:27:00,362 --> 00:27:04,772
Get to know yourself, figure out what's
true, say it, get curious, ask good

536
00:27:04,772 --> 00:27:09,622
questions and center somebody else's
perspective that makes it all work.

537
00:27:09,622 --> 00:27:12,082
But in order to do that, you
have to be able to manage your

538
00:27:12,082 --> 00:27:15,952
emotions because emotions are
gonna come up with any of that.

539
00:27:16,072 --> 00:27:21,922
And pri, you said it so perfectly,
you are afraid to say it because

540
00:27:22,522 --> 00:27:26,692
if it was very important to
him, it could represent a no-go.

541
00:27:26,692 --> 00:27:26,782
Mm-hmm.

542
00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:31,762
And you don't know that that is
exactly in a nutshell, what makes

543
00:27:31,762 --> 00:27:35,242
differentiation difficult, because
it's such a vulnerable experience to

544
00:27:35,242 --> 00:27:36,562
share what's actually true for you.

545
00:27:36,562 --> 00:27:37,282
It's risky.

546
00:27:38,242 --> 00:27:38,572
You

547
00:27:38,572 --> 00:27:42,712
don't know how the person that you
love so much is gonna receive that.

548
00:27:43,492 --> 00:27:48,172
And it wouldn't be surprising if
they were upset by it and it became

549
00:27:48,232 --> 00:27:50,872
a very tense, difficult time.

550
00:27:51,712 --> 00:27:54,112
So there's some real
risks involved in this.

551
00:27:54,112 --> 00:27:57,142
It's not just like, oh,
you should just do this.

552
00:27:57,262 --> 00:28:02,722
Just do it is like a red flag
for like big opportunity here.

553
00:28:02,722 --> 00:28:04,252
That's gonna be very complicated.

554
00:28:05,002 --> 00:28:07,252
So that's how I think
of all of that stuff.

555
00:28:07,342 --> 00:28:13,102
And breaking it down like that allows me
to help people build the capacity to do

556
00:28:13,102 --> 00:28:16,152
that when they don't quite have it yet.

557
00:28:16,662 --> 00:28:16,782
Yeah.

558
00:28:16,782 --> 00:28:19,692
So if somebody has a difficult
time holding onto their

559
00:28:19,692 --> 00:28:22,302
emotions when their partner says
something that is hard to hear.

560
00:28:22,802 --> 00:28:26,342
I wanna experience some kind of
sex that we've never had before.

561
00:28:26,612 --> 00:28:27,722
It feels important to me.

562
00:28:27,722 --> 00:28:29,072
That might be very hard to hear.

563
00:28:29,222 --> 00:28:31,592
Or honey, I wanna open our relationship.

564
00:28:31,592 --> 00:28:35,432
I've always wanted blah, blah, blah,
and it feels really important to me.

565
00:28:35,432 --> 00:28:37,052
Can we have a conversation about that?

566
00:28:37,142 --> 00:28:41,312
Those are some difficult
disclosures for a lot of people.

567
00:28:41,492 --> 00:28:46,352
Or like you said I don't wanna still
be in this form of relationship.

568
00:28:47,282 --> 00:28:51,212
And what I love about your
story is you went from there

569
00:28:51,212 --> 00:28:57,772
to some kind of exploration of
what might be possible for you.

570
00:28:57,777 --> 00:28:57,847
Mm-hmm.

571
00:28:58,492 --> 00:29:01,492
That might check the
boxes for both of you.

572
00:29:01,912 --> 00:29:02,062
Yeah.

573
00:29:02,062 --> 00:29:08,562
In a really creative way that isn't
based on a lot of relationship rules

574
00:29:08,562 --> 00:29:11,772
about what a relationship should look
like and shouldn't look like, or what

575
00:29:11,772 --> 00:29:18,462
polyamory has to be, or CNM has to
be instead starting from the real.

576
00:29:18,837 --> 00:29:20,937
Humans that we're working with.

577
00:29:21,437 --> 00:29:24,707
What do you like and hope for and want?

578
00:29:24,797 --> 00:29:28,007
And what lit you up about this and
what was hard for you about this?

579
00:29:28,187 --> 00:29:34,127
Same questions for you, and then beginning
to look from the place of desire.

580
00:29:34,247 --> 00:29:37,997
What would you like instead
of what didn't you like?

581
00:29:37,997 --> 00:29:42,467
What can you learn from what you didn't
like about what you do like, or what

582
00:29:42,467 --> 00:29:46,847
experiment you might wanna run, or what
small step forward you might wanna take

583
00:29:47,177 --> 00:29:51,047
so that you can get more feedback from the
universe about what you do and don't like?

584
00:29:51,977 --> 00:29:54,827
This is something that if,
like anything, if you've never

585
00:29:54,827 --> 00:29:59,717
experienced it, you're gonna need to
experience it a little bit to learn.

586
00:29:59,717 --> 00:29:59,807
Mm-hmm.

587
00:30:00,152 --> 00:30:01,457
What's actually true for you?

588
00:30:02,117 --> 00:30:08,027
How could you have ever known that it
would be hard for you to handle polyamory

589
00:30:08,027 --> 00:30:13,927
in some very particular ways if you never
had the experience of your partner having

590
00:30:13,927 --> 00:30:15,997
romantic connections with somebody else?

591
00:30:16,927 --> 00:30:17,137
Yeah,

592
00:30:17,377 --> 00:30:20,197
no, that's, that's, and we've always
said that too, and it's like, well,

593
00:30:20,197 --> 00:30:24,007
at least we've had, and I, you
know, when I bring up polyamory,

594
00:30:24,007 --> 00:30:25,657
she's like, oh, not the pay word.

595
00:30:25,777 --> 00:30:30,247
You know, like even after, it's been
six years since we stopped and it's just

596
00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:34,207
still kind of leaves a bad taste in her
mouth and, and we can joke about it now.

597
00:30:34,267 --> 00:30:34,447
Yeah.

598
00:30:34,647 --> 00:30:38,917
But it's, it's kind of like, well,
if, to me our poll experience

599
00:30:38,917 --> 00:30:42,727
was very positive because we got
to learn a lot about each other.

600
00:30:43,057 --> 00:30:45,727
We got to learn a lot
about our relationship.

601
00:30:46,207 --> 00:30:50,377
And frankly, after that, when we
stopped being Polly is when she

602
00:30:50,377 --> 00:30:53,047
realized that she could really trust me.

603
00:30:53,137 --> 00:30:54,667
Like she could always trust me, me,

604
00:30:54,667 --> 00:30:58,582
and like the communication definitely
has is, is way better because of.

605
00:30:59,082 --> 00:31:01,362
The way I'm thinking now, you know?

606
00:31:01,367 --> 00:31:01,427
Yeah.

607
00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:05,052
The, the, oh, we're gonna have
these uncomfortable conversations

608
00:31:05,052 --> 00:31:06,972
and we, we don't always agree.

609
00:31:06,972 --> 00:31:07,032
Yeah.

610
00:31:07,502 --> 00:31:11,372
But if you have 'em, at least you know,
okay, well this is where he's at, or

611
00:31:11,372 --> 00:31:16,502
this is where she's at, and it's figuring
out how to navigate through that.

612
00:31:16,502 --> 00:31:16,892
So

613
00:31:17,392 --> 00:31:17,807
That's amazing.

614
00:31:17,837 --> 00:31:18,742
It's, it's work.

615
00:31:18,802 --> 00:31:19,342
It's work.

616
00:31:19,432 --> 00:31:23,872
And, you know, I, I will say that since we
stopped being poly and as we've gone along

617
00:31:24,292 --> 00:31:28,612
and we, you know, now we're entertaining
more of, uh, friends with benefits kind

618
00:31:28,612 --> 00:31:32,662
of thing I've sat back after, in the
past five, six years, and I've gone, you

619
00:31:32,662 --> 00:31:37,347
know, I, if I have the opportunity to
be poly again I don't think I'd wanna,

620
00:31:38,022 --> 00:31:41,337
and, and primarily because I'm exhausted.

621
00:31:41,727 --> 00:31:43,317
I'm exhausted and.

622
00:31:43,842 --> 00:31:47,142
I'm putting everything I have
into this primary relationship.

623
00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:50,832
And it was something I noticed right
before she said she wanted to stop

624
00:31:50,832 --> 00:31:55,932
being poly was I was getting exhausted
because I put everything I can into

625
00:31:55,932 --> 00:31:59,922
every relationship that I have as
far as romantic relationships go, you

626
00:31:59,922 --> 00:32:01,932
get as much of me as I can give you.

627
00:32:02,482 --> 00:32:07,462
But we have five kids and we're we, I'm
very close to them and I was, we were

628
00:32:07,462 --> 00:32:11,422
both raising them and then I'm putting
everything I have into our time together

629
00:32:11,922 --> 00:32:17,772
and what little bit I had for myself, I
was dividing up to give to somebody else

630
00:32:18,222 --> 00:32:21,882
and it just wasn't, it wasn't enjoyable.

631
00:32:21,882 --> 00:32:22,577
It was hard.

632
00:32:22,782 --> 00:32:23,232
It was hard in

633
00:32:23,232 --> 00:32:24,192
that, in that fashion.

634
00:32:24,732 --> 00:32:25,092
Yeah.

635
00:32:25,152 --> 00:32:25,302
Yeah.

636
00:32:25,302 --> 00:32:26,652
And so I can't do it.

637
00:32:27,402 --> 00:32:28,692
You've done it for so many years.

638
00:32:29,192 --> 00:32:29,852
When you said

639
00:32:29,852 --> 00:32:33,362
you had 30 and 25 years under
your belt with, and I'm like.

640
00:32:33,917 --> 00:32:34,427
Wow.

641
00:32:34,697 --> 00:32:36,527
That's and so my ears perked up.

642
00:32:36,527 --> 00:32:41,717
And I, and not to discuss you personally,
but just in, in the aspect of, of keeping

643
00:32:41,717 --> 00:32:46,447
up relationships and the longevity of it
and being able to split your time and, and

644
00:32:46,447 --> 00:32:49,017
everything, what could you advise on that?

645
00:32:49,977 --> 00:32:51,417
Well, I don't have five kids.

646
00:32:51,917 --> 00:32:52,657
That's fair.

647
00:32:53,187 --> 00:32:53,537
Smart.

648
00:32:54,467 --> 00:32:55,902
We'll start

649
00:32:55,902 --> 00:32:55,992
there.

650
00:32:55,992 --> 00:32:56,892
That's a good start.

651
00:32:56,892 --> 00:32:57,252
Yeah.

652
00:32:57,282 --> 00:32:57,312
'cause

653
00:32:57,852 --> 00:33:01,782
the first thing that I was thinking
is as you were talking, I, I

654
00:33:01,782 --> 00:33:03,342
was like, don't you have like a

655
00:33:03,972 --> 00:33:04,302
bunch

656
00:33:04,302 --> 00:33:04,812
of kids?

657
00:33:04,887 --> 00:33:05,177
Yeah.

658
00:33:06,102 --> 00:33:06,462
Yeah.

659
00:33:06,582 --> 00:33:12,402
You're dividing all of your time and the
heart between prison and another love.

660
00:33:12,792 --> 00:33:13,932
That's not what you're doing.

661
00:33:14,212 --> 00:33:14,502
Yeah.

662
00:33:14,687 --> 00:33:16,187
You're raising a family.

663
00:33:16,337 --> 00:33:17,987
And a big one.

664
00:33:18,917 --> 00:33:18,977
Yeah.

665
00:33:18,977 --> 00:33:24,587
And that is a whole lot of people
who have very real needs from you.

666
00:33:25,007 --> 00:33:25,337
Yes.

667
00:33:25,337 --> 00:33:26,357
And, and.

668
00:33:26,857 --> 00:33:32,617
I think as a parent, your commitment
to your kids is to show up for them

669
00:33:33,307 --> 00:33:37,597
in as complete a way as you can
and as healthy a away as you can.

670
00:33:37,597 --> 00:33:42,877
And that's a growth commitment
and it's a showing up commitment.

671
00:33:42,937 --> 00:33:44,167
It's a day-to-day commit.

672
00:33:44,167 --> 00:33:46,807
It's a great big commitment.

673
00:33:47,437 --> 00:33:52,047
So I just wanna say like there's
a time and a place for everything.

674
00:33:52,547 --> 00:33:55,037
I can't imagine how.

675
00:33:55,982 --> 00:33:57,482
I mean, it would be a nifty trick.

676
00:33:57,752 --> 00:33:58,677
It was, and it was,

677
00:33:58,742 --> 00:33:59,192
it was hard.

678
00:33:59,192 --> 00:33:59,852
Oh, Martha, hold

679
00:33:59,852 --> 00:34:00,002
on.

680
00:34:00,002 --> 00:34:01,652
I got a cherry to put on top of that.

681
00:34:01,977 --> 00:34:02,197
Hey.

682
00:34:02,202 --> 00:34:02,582
Okay, good.

683
00:34:03,152 --> 00:34:03,272
Yeah.

684
00:34:03,272 --> 00:34:03,482
Yeah.

685
00:34:03,482 --> 00:34:05,372
I was going through menopause.

686
00:34:05,402 --> 00:34:05,492
Oh

687
00:34:05,492 --> 00:34:06,002
yeah.

688
00:34:06,272 --> 00:34:08,372
And I was living three, three,

689
00:34:08,372 --> 00:34:11,672
I was living almost very big
three hours away from all of

690
00:34:11,682 --> 00:34:13,452
my kids, which I never have.

691
00:34:13,662 --> 00:34:13,752
Yeah.

692
00:34:13,752 --> 00:34:16,572
I was living three hours away
from my husband and my kids when

693
00:34:17,022 --> 00:34:20,802
toward the latter half of this,
of the poly life was happening.

694
00:34:20,802 --> 00:34:21,882
And so yeah.

695
00:34:21,912 --> 00:34:23,172
I had depression.

696
00:34:23,172 --> 00:34:25,182
I had hormonal changes.

697
00:34:25,182 --> 00:34:26,292
I had anxiety.

698
00:34:26,292 --> 00:34:26,802
Stress.

699
00:34:26,802 --> 00:34:27,762
Anxiety.

700
00:34:27,762 --> 00:34:28,662
New job.

701
00:34:28,932 --> 00:34:30,042
No family.

702
00:34:30,042 --> 00:34:30,312
No.

703
00:34:30,402 --> 00:34:31,932
My babies weren't around me.

704
00:34:32,022 --> 00:34:32,052
I

705
00:34:32,052 --> 00:34:33,462
wasn't around like, yeah.

706
00:34:33,462 --> 00:34:37,572
It was such a bad time that.

707
00:34:38,487 --> 00:34:43,257
Now just saying it out loud to you sounds
so ridiculous that we even attempted,

708
00:34:43,757 --> 00:34:45,797
you know, now that you're
saying it out loud, I think

709
00:34:45,797 --> 00:34:47,177
it's amazing that we survived.

710
00:34:47,177 --> 00:34:47,567
Yeah.

711
00:34:47,572 --> 00:34:49,602
Like, look at us, we're
married, we're still married.

712
00:34:49,632 --> 00:34:50,002
He's still

713
00:34:50,002 --> 00:34:50,202
alive.

714
00:34:50,502 --> 00:34:50,867
We never

715
00:34:50,867 --> 00:34:51,587
left each other.

716
00:34:51,587 --> 00:34:52,367
That's incredible.

717
00:34:53,117 --> 00:34:53,297
Yeah.

718
00:34:53,297 --> 00:34:56,237
I mean, and I love great,
I love your, so your book.

719
00:34:56,237 --> 00:34:58,967
So tell me, does your book give
you, I know that you said you

720
00:34:58,967 --> 00:35:01,517
made it for therapist and you
made it for regular people.

721
00:35:01,817 --> 00:35:06,857
Does it give you a lot of guidance
on where to start or is it more of a

722
00:35:06,857 --> 00:35:12,947
navigation, like for someone who's already
in, in Poly and already in depth in there?

723
00:35:13,447 --> 00:35:13,567
First

724
00:35:13,742 --> 00:35:13,802
of

725
00:35:13,802 --> 00:35:14,852
all, here's the book.

726
00:35:14,942 --> 00:35:16,167
Polyamory that at that.

727
00:35:16,397 --> 00:35:19,127
Yeah, look at I wrote that book.

728
00:35:19,127 --> 00:35:19,607
That's right.

729
00:35:19,667 --> 00:35:20,327
That's beautiful.

730
00:35:20,507 --> 00:35:21,722
Um, yeah.

731
00:35:21,882 --> 00:35:27,312
Polyamory a clinical toolkit for
therapists and their clients and, the

732
00:35:27,312 --> 00:35:31,422
first section is like CNM 1 0 1 basically.

733
00:35:31,422 --> 00:35:31,692
Okay.

734
00:35:32,272 --> 00:35:35,182
That which you've all read before
and you can just skip right by.

735
00:35:35,182 --> 00:35:36,682
It glossary all that.

736
00:35:37,492 --> 00:35:44,962
And then the whole sort of bulk of
the book is how do you think about

737
00:35:44,962 --> 00:35:46,642
these pieces of differentiation?

738
00:35:46,852 --> 00:35:51,502
What exactly goes into navigating a
difference of opinion between people?

739
00:35:51,592 --> 00:35:54,262
How do you think about having
a difference of opinion?

740
00:35:54,262 --> 00:35:58,772
Well, what are the particular kinds of
challenges that happen with different

741
00:35:58,772 --> 00:36:00,752
roles in an open relationship?

742
00:36:00,802 --> 00:36:04,072
Are your primary partners,
secondary partner, non-hierarchical?

743
00:36:04,072 --> 00:36:05,362
Are you the hinge partner?

744
00:36:05,782 --> 00:36:11,122
Like each, any role that you might be in
has its particular relational challenges.

745
00:36:11,852 --> 00:36:14,492
NRE, how do you handle your NRE?

746
00:36:14,492 --> 00:36:16,052
How would you handle your partner's?

747
00:36:16,052 --> 00:36:19,082
NRE, some worksheets for
beginning to think about that.

748
00:36:19,877 --> 00:36:22,427
Decisions about opening
up or not opening up?

749
00:36:22,547 --> 00:36:28,427
What kinds of open, what do you want in
a relationship aside from open or close?

750
00:36:28,427 --> 00:36:34,697
Like before we start trying to put
it in a definitional box, let's open

751
00:36:34,697 --> 00:36:36,947
the field from a place of desire.

752
00:36:36,947 --> 00:36:38,597
What do you wanna experience?

753
00:36:38,987 --> 00:36:40,547
What feels important to you?

754
00:36:41,477 --> 00:36:45,647
For some people, they want
lots of sexual adventure.

755
00:36:45,647 --> 00:36:49,587
For some people, they want
lots of intimate connection.

756
00:36:49,827 --> 00:36:54,117
Some people want lots of safety and
security and reliability, and these

757
00:36:54,117 --> 00:36:56,397
things are not mutually exclusive.

758
00:36:57,387 --> 00:37:02,877
You can have all of that, but it's
important to identify what it is

759
00:37:02,877 --> 00:37:04,497
that feels very important to you.

760
00:37:05,217 --> 00:37:09,027
If you're in a couple, let's
imagine having negotiations

761
00:37:09,027 --> 00:37:10,677
around this and one of you.

762
00:37:11,397 --> 00:37:15,897
Is a sexual adventurer to whom
sexual adventure is very important.

763
00:37:15,957 --> 00:37:20,547
You better be talking about that because
it's the kind of thing that's gonna build

764
00:37:20,547 --> 00:37:22,887
resentment if you haven't even discussed.

765
00:37:23,247 --> 00:37:27,357
It's important to me that the part
of you that wants to experience

766
00:37:27,357 --> 00:37:30,597
sexual adventure feels seen and
heard and taken into account.

767
00:37:30,597 --> 00:37:34,022
And this conversation, we can't
just decide, we're not gonna talk

768
00:37:34,022 --> 00:37:35,487
about that whole aspect of you.

769
00:37:35,487 --> 00:37:36,057
Mm-hmm.

770
00:37:36,297 --> 00:37:41,637
So I start with like, what feels important
to the humans that are in the room?

771
00:37:42,137 --> 00:37:47,507
And then from there, let's
start crafting some experiments.

772
00:37:48,212 --> 00:37:53,072
A small experiment that might inform a
next step through the School of heart.

773
00:37:53,072 --> 00:37:58,562
Knocks like we're trying an experiment
so we can learn for, which is quite

774
00:37:58,562 --> 00:38:02,462
different from what a lot of people
do when they open their relationships,

775
00:38:02,462 --> 00:38:07,172
which is try to find a book, not
fail to find a book or find a book,

776
00:38:07,172 --> 00:38:08,762
but it didn't have very good advice.

777
00:38:08,852 --> 00:38:10,952
And then they decide we're gonna open up.

778
00:38:10,952 --> 00:38:18,092
And what it's gonna look like is polyamory
with a rules document with 60 points

779
00:38:18,152 --> 00:38:24,542
and 120 sub clauses, and then it's
gonna involve international trips for

780
00:38:25,172 --> 00:38:28,142
in excess of two weeks starting a media.

781
00:38:28,172 --> 00:38:30,482
I mean, it's just like, what
the fuck are you thinking?

782
00:38:30,982 --> 00:38:31,072
Yes.

783
00:38:31,072 --> 00:38:35,622
Instead, why not start
with a small experiment?

784
00:38:36,122 --> 00:38:40,382
I would like to have coffee with.

785
00:38:41,222 --> 00:38:45,182
Somebody that I feel a slightly
flirt, flirtatious vibe with.

786
00:38:45,682 --> 00:38:47,002
What would you like to do?

787
00:38:47,002 --> 00:38:51,772
While I'm doing that, let's see if we can
set this small experiment up for success.

788
00:38:51,982 --> 00:38:52,912
What kind of support?

789
00:38:53,392 --> 00:38:53,442
I love that.

790
00:38:53,442 --> 00:38:54,502
Do you think you're gonna need?

791
00:38:54,772 --> 00:38:57,202
What kind of supports do
I think I'm gonna need?

792
00:38:57,532 --> 00:39:02,092
What kind of agreements do we wanna
have for this tiny experiment, not the

793
00:39:02,092 --> 00:39:05,332
rest of our lives, this experiment.

794
00:39:06,202 --> 00:39:11,182
And then we're gonna like say,
well, I think I don't want it to

795
00:39:11,182 --> 00:39:15,172
be my best friend and I don't want
it to be your ex, but anybody else.

796
00:39:15,592 --> 00:39:20,662
And I don't want it to be cocktails, I
want it to be non-alcoholic beverages.

797
00:39:20,662 --> 00:39:21,652
It could be coffee.

798
00:39:22,152 --> 00:39:23,117
I, like just Yeah.

799
00:39:23,297 --> 00:39:23,957
Figure out.

800
00:39:24,017 --> 00:39:31,127
And it's not rules, it's how would
we set up an experiment to succeed?

801
00:39:31,997 --> 00:39:32,087
Mm-hmm.

802
00:39:32,327 --> 00:39:34,037
So that we can learn something from it.

803
00:39:34,037 --> 00:39:34,127
Mm-hmm.

804
00:39:34,487 --> 00:39:36,972
So let's work together
toward a small success.

805
00:39:37,877 --> 00:39:42,017
Of an experiment, and then we sit down
after the experiment and we learn from it.

806
00:39:42,527 --> 00:39:43,697
What was it like for you?

807
00:39:43,697 --> 00:39:44,837
What was it like for you?

808
00:39:45,197 --> 00:39:47,387
What did you learn from it about yourself?

809
00:39:47,627 --> 00:39:49,997
What did I learn about myself?

810
00:39:50,687 --> 00:39:51,317
What was hard?

811
00:39:51,317 --> 00:39:53,117
What was easier than I expected?

812
00:39:53,627 --> 00:39:55,427
What would be a next experiment?

813
00:39:55,927 --> 00:40:01,327
This tiptoe method takes into
account real, genuine individual

814
00:40:01,327 --> 00:40:09,597
humans with real feelings and unique
selves are what is happening here.

815
00:40:09,597 --> 00:40:12,507
And we wanna keep a relational
connection between real

816
00:40:12,507 --> 00:40:14,997
people about real experiences.

817
00:40:15,447 --> 00:40:19,627
So then when the emotional
messiness comes we saw it coming

818
00:40:20,047 --> 00:40:21,777
like, oh, here, it's what?

819
00:40:21,867 --> 00:40:23,697
What's going on for you, my darling?

820
00:40:24,417 --> 00:40:25,407
What's coming up?

821
00:40:25,437 --> 00:40:26,757
Why does it feel important?

822
00:40:26,757 --> 00:40:27,987
What might make it easier?

823
00:40:27,987 --> 00:40:29,757
What kind of care can I give you now?

824
00:40:29,757 --> 00:40:31,527
What kind of care can you give you now?

825
00:40:32,127 --> 00:40:34,617
That's gonna help you feel
supported in this moment.

826
00:40:34,977 --> 00:40:39,597
And then when we make a new experiment,
how do we make an experiment that

827
00:40:39,597 --> 00:40:43,257
cares better for you about this
so that you are better resourced?

828
00:40:43,257 --> 00:40:49,197
So at each step, we're looking to make
sure everybody is resourced for the

829
00:40:49,197 --> 00:40:53,247
experiment to the best of our ability,
and we're expecting to learn from it.

830
00:40:53,487 --> 00:40:56,997
Something's gonna go better than
something else, and then we're gonna

831
00:40:56,997 --> 00:40:58,377
learn, and then we're gonna apply it.

832
00:40:58,877 --> 00:41:02,027
So that's my strategy for
forming a relationship.

833
00:41:02,327 --> 00:41:04,427
That is Martha.

834
00:41:05,387 --> 00:41:08,327
I'm in love with your words, and
I'm in love with your knowledge.

835
00:41:08,417 --> 00:41:09,468
Just FYI.

836
00:41:09,473 --> 00:41:14,057
Yeah, I, I am curious though, because I,
I love how you form things and I am dying

837
00:41:14,057 --> 00:41:15,527
to know what your opinion is on this.

838
00:41:15,527 --> 00:41:18,377
We have had a lot of
talks lately, just us.

839
00:41:18,752 --> 00:41:21,992
Without hitting record about Compersion.

840
00:41:22,292 --> 00:41:27,192
Uh, one of my favorite favorite topics to
talk about, uh, because we've, and we've

841
00:41:27,192 --> 00:41:30,312
done TikTok content on this all day long.

842
00:41:30,312 --> 00:41:32,292
Like we've, we've had our
conversations about it.

843
00:41:32,832 --> 00:41:36,942
I am very, uh, very big into
compersion towards my wife.

844
00:41:36,942 --> 00:41:41,352
Like I, as far as I'm concerned, not
even in the lifestyle or in dating

845
00:41:41,352 --> 00:41:45,372
or anything like that, but just all
around a win for her is a win for us.

846
00:41:45,552 --> 00:41:46,007
You know what, what I mean?

847
00:41:46,007 --> 00:41:46,167
And

848
00:41:46,187 --> 00:41:47,442
I'm the very opposite.

849
00:41:47,442 --> 00:41:47,712
Very

850
00:41:47,712 --> 00:41:48,192
opposite.

851
00:41:48,252 --> 00:41:49,212
I, um, uh, she'll

852
00:41:49,212 --> 00:41:51,072
straight up say, fuck Compersion.

853
00:41:51,282 --> 00:41:52,422
Yeah, I do.

854
00:41:52,422 --> 00:41:53,322
Because yeah.

855
00:41:53,322 --> 00:41:57,132
I'm like, I, I'm happy
that you're happy, but.

856
00:41:57,882 --> 00:42:00,372
I, I don't care what made you happy.

857
00:42:00,372 --> 00:42:02,832
Like, I don't wanna know if it,
if it didn't, that doesn't have

858
00:42:02,832 --> 00:42:04,662
to do with me and my children.

859
00:42:04,992 --> 00:42:06,702
I don't care what made you happy.

860
00:42:06,732 --> 00:42:06,882
And

861
00:42:06,882 --> 00:42:10,567
this is one of the many things that
we it, this is the reason why we

862
00:42:10,567 --> 00:42:13,627
do so well, especially on the show,
because we don't always agree.

863
00:42:13,627 --> 00:42:13,687
Yeah.

864
00:42:14,047 --> 00:42:17,497
And we're very vocal on our
sides on it, and we still come

865
00:42:17,497 --> 00:42:18,787
together and we make it work.

866
00:42:18,787 --> 00:42:21,847
But nonetheless, I, I'm
curious, what, what are your

867
00:42:21,847 --> 00:42:23,437
thoughts regarding Compersion?

868
00:42:23,467 --> 00:42:27,787
I'm obviously you don't have
to have it to make it work.

869
00:42:28,127 --> 00:42:29,957
But what are your thoughts
on Com conversion?

870
00:42:30,767 --> 00:42:35,717
As you have pointed out, my main thing is
some people love it, some people don't.

871
00:42:36,217 --> 00:42:41,557
Um, it's a really useful concept because
it's kind of the opposite of jealousy.

872
00:42:42,127 --> 00:42:42,217
Mm-hmm.

873
00:42:42,577 --> 00:42:44,107
Um, as a concept.

874
00:42:44,377 --> 00:42:45,477
Pris, you said.

875
00:42:45,977 --> 00:42:47,837
I love it when he is happy.

876
00:42:48,017 --> 00:42:48,377
Yes.

877
00:42:48,377 --> 00:42:49,617
But I don't care what made him happy.

878
00:42:49,617 --> 00:42:50,667
I think that's conversion.

879
00:42:50,937 --> 00:42:51,897
It's important to keep him happy.

880
00:42:52,397 --> 00:42:53,067
There we go.

881
00:42:53,067 --> 00:42:53,317
Just, just

882
00:42:53,592 --> 00:42:55,482
as a reframe, I just
wanna offer a reframe.

883
00:42:55,482 --> 00:42:56,352
I you go.

884
00:42:56,852 --> 00:43:01,202
And then that piece about, I don't
wanna know the details of it.

885
00:43:01,712 --> 00:43:03,512
That has to do with co-regulation.

886
00:43:03,512 --> 00:43:05,402
That's not about conversion, about what's

887
00:43:05,402 --> 00:43:06,512
co-regulation,

888
00:43:07,022 --> 00:43:09,782
that's helping somebody
else manage their emotions.

889
00:43:10,082 --> 00:43:20,432
Mm. So if you say, I am very comfortable
knowing this area of your life, and

890
00:43:20,432 --> 00:43:26,342
I am really struggling to manage my
emotions about this area of your life.

891
00:43:27,272 --> 00:43:31,412
If he's willing to tell you about
this one and not this one, he's

892
00:43:31,412 --> 00:43:34,562
helping you manage your emotions.

893
00:43:35,102 --> 00:43:35,962
Does that make sense?

894
00:43:36,112 --> 00:43:37,372
That makes a lot of sense.

895
00:43:37,372 --> 00:43:37,762
Yes.

896
00:43:38,542 --> 00:43:43,192
So that's actually one of the reasons
I wrote this book, is because there are

897
00:43:43,192 --> 00:43:48,532
some weird misconceptions about what
you can't do if you're doing polyamory.

898
00:43:48,532 --> 00:43:48,862
Right.

899
00:43:48,982 --> 00:43:50,812
And don't ask, don't Tell is one of 'em.

900
00:43:50,872 --> 00:43:52,462
And it's not true.

901
00:43:53,122 --> 00:43:59,332
It's so clearly obvious to me that you
can titrate what kind of information

902
00:43:59,332 --> 00:44:04,762
you want, and if your partner's willing
to participate, that's not doing

903
00:44:04,762 --> 00:44:07,252
anything about relationship wrong.

904
00:44:07,462 --> 00:44:10,792
That's helping somebody manage
their emotions, who has the

905
00:44:10,792 --> 00:44:14,902
ability to figure out, this is
easy for me, this is hard for me.

906
00:44:14,902 --> 00:44:14,962
Hmm.

907
00:44:15,442 --> 00:44:17,422
And then ask, are you willing to help?

908
00:44:17,922 --> 00:44:21,102
You don't have to be willing to help,
but most partners are like, please

909
00:44:21,102 --> 00:44:22,812
sign me up to make this easier for you.

910
00:44:23,232 --> 00:44:23,427
Yeah, right.

911
00:44:23,927 --> 00:44:24,227
Okay.

912
00:44:24,227 --> 00:44:25,067
Back to com conversion.

913
00:44:25,067 --> 00:44:26,117
That was a great big

914
00:44:26,447 --> 00:44:26,867
tangent.

915
00:44:27,367 --> 00:44:28,507
Me reframing.

916
00:44:28,507 --> 00:44:30,607
Pris, I think you're doing
com conversion just fine.

917
00:44:31,447 --> 00:44:34,027
Um, Angie don't have to like the concept.

918
00:44:34,027 --> 00:44:37,747
I mean, I think part of the reason
why some people really don't like the

919
00:44:37,747 --> 00:44:41,257
concept is, first of all, I think it
feels like something that you're supposed

920
00:44:41,257 --> 00:44:42,367
to do if you're doing this right.

921
00:44:42,367 --> 00:44:45,707
And that just pisses me off
don't tell me how I need to feel.

922
00:44:46,247 --> 00:44:46,667
Yeah.

923
00:44:46,727 --> 00:44:53,317
And so I really wanna put this in
the realm of it is possible to want

924
00:44:53,497 --> 00:44:57,547
somebody else to be happy and to
feel happy because they're happy.

925
00:44:58,047 --> 00:45:04,427
I am clearly much happier when my
partner is happy and that's compersion.

926
00:45:04,927 --> 00:45:08,712
I think we have the opportunity
to practice this on social media.

927
00:45:08,712 --> 00:45:10,332
Social media is a great example.

928
00:45:10,422 --> 00:45:11,532
Ervo Facebook.

929
00:45:11,862 --> 00:45:14,682
So people like post all their
pictures of their vacation and stuff.

930
00:45:15,132 --> 00:45:21,122
So when you're looking at Facebook and
you're in a shitty mood is does it well?

931
00:45:21,122 --> 00:45:22,742
Like how do you look at those pictures?

932
00:45:22,742 --> 00:45:26,462
You're like, God damnit,
that's I I at fucking work.

933
00:45:26,462 --> 00:45:27,587
And they we're not.

934
00:45:28,412 --> 00:45:29,162
Exactly.

935
00:45:29,662 --> 00:45:33,982
And so I think we can kind of stretch
ourselves a little bit and be like,

936
00:45:34,482 --> 00:45:35,982
could I celebrate their success?

937
00:45:36,012 --> 00:45:38,262
Oh, it's so great that
they had a great vacation.

938
00:45:38,412 --> 00:45:42,912
I now have learned about myself that
I would like a great vacation also.

939
00:45:43,412 --> 00:45:49,262
So that's a way to take what you
experience and learn something

940
00:45:49,262 --> 00:45:52,112
about yourself and you can be kind.

941
00:45:52,667 --> 00:45:53,957
To that other person like that.

942
00:45:54,377 --> 00:45:54,767
Yay.

943
00:45:54,767 --> 00:45:56,027
New for the vacation.

944
00:45:56,897 --> 00:46:00,947
Don't, don't love the performative
pictures, but I'm excited that you're

945
00:46:00,947 --> 00:46:04,007
happy and thank you for teaching me that.

946
00:46:04,007 --> 00:46:05,147
I want a vacation.

947
00:46:05,647 --> 00:46:10,087
So I think we could all kind of practice
just like we don't, instead of being

948
00:46:10,087 --> 00:46:14,347
in competition with each other, we can
celebrate successes, we can try, we can

949
00:46:14,347 --> 00:46:17,077
even like get a little of that juiciness.

950
00:46:17,467 --> 00:46:20,917
So sometimes I'll like practice looking
at those performative pictures and I'm

951
00:46:20,917 --> 00:46:24,987
like, okay, can I feel the sun on my skin
a little bit because I could sure use it.

952
00:46:24,987 --> 00:46:25,077
It's.

953
00:46:25,707 --> 00:46:28,287
Six degrees in Madison,
Wisconsin right now.

954
00:46:28,857 --> 00:46:32,937
So like if I'm looking at a picture
of somebody sunning by the pool in,

955
00:46:33,097 --> 00:46:36,277
wherever, maybe I could just have
a little bit of that for myself.

956
00:46:36,307 --> 00:46:39,067
Maybe I could take a one minute
vacation and sit by the pool

957
00:46:39,372 --> 00:46:39,642
one minute.

958
00:46:39,697 --> 00:46:40,087
So,

959
00:46:40,927 --> 00:46:42,307
yeah, that's right.

960
00:46:42,357 --> 00:46:45,837
That's, I try to unpack conversion
into something that's a little more

961
00:46:45,837 --> 00:46:48,447
accessible and a little less judgy.

962
00:46:49,347 --> 00:46:53,277
It's not that you have to feel a
particular thing, you feel what you feel.

963
00:46:53,787 --> 00:46:53,907
Yeah.

964
00:46:53,907 --> 00:46:54,027
The

965
00:46:54,027 --> 00:46:58,737
question is how do you learn from
your emotions about what's important

966
00:46:58,737 --> 00:47:02,937
to you, and then how do you be a
relational being, which is where.

967
00:47:03,537 --> 00:47:05,217
I want you to feel happy.

968
00:47:05,217 --> 00:47:06,957
I don't wanna take your happiness away.

969
00:47:06,987 --> 00:47:10,467
I just want us both to be happy and
we're in conflict in the spot, right?

970
00:47:10,472 --> 00:47:10,662
Yeah.

971
00:47:11,397 --> 00:47:11,667
Yeah.

972
00:47:11,697 --> 00:47:14,487
So I, I'm kind of challenging
you, Pris, so I'm curious for

973
00:47:14,487 --> 00:47:16,077
you, how does that land for you?

974
00:47:16,497 --> 00:47:18,717
I, you know, it, it makes a lot of sense.

975
00:47:18,717 --> 00:47:19,827
No, it, it really does.

976
00:47:19,827 --> 00:47:20,787
It makes a lot of sense.

977
00:47:20,787 --> 00:47:25,997
And it's funny because he, uh,
he has to remind me every now and

978
00:47:25,997 --> 00:47:29,977
then, actually recently, he's like,
you know, my wins are your wins.

979
00:47:29,977 --> 00:47:30,157
Whatever

980
00:47:30,577 --> 00:47:34,822
your wins are not, my wins like
will be somewhere and a very pretty

981
00:47:34,822 --> 00:47:36,712
woman will show interest in me.

982
00:47:37,132 --> 00:47:41,152
And you have to understand that
before we started, uh, you know,

983
00:47:41,182 --> 00:47:46,522
14 years ago, the Adam previous
to that had very low self-esteem,

984
00:47:46,522 --> 00:47:48,442
actually up until a couple years ago.

985
00:47:48,742 --> 00:47:53,802
Very low self-esteem and just never felt
wanted outside of my lovely wife here.

986
00:47:53,802 --> 00:47:56,912
And, you know, I had a.
An abusive childhood.

987
00:47:56,912 --> 00:47:59,492
You know, I never felt
like love from anybody.

988
00:47:59,492 --> 00:48:01,262
I never felt wanted from anybody.

989
00:48:01,712 --> 00:48:06,932
And so now I'm starting to get that
and I'm starting to have these very

990
00:48:06,932 --> 00:48:08,852
attractive women show interest in me.

991
00:48:08,852 --> 00:48:10,972
And I'm like, how awesome is that?

992
00:48:10,972 --> 00:48:13,072
And she's like, yeah,
it's pretty damn awesome.

993
00:48:13,162 --> 00:48:17,422
Why don't you go take a walk outside
for a little bit, uh, and and bring it

994
00:48:17,422 --> 00:48:19,162
down a notch and then come back inside.

995
00:48:19,282 --> 00:48:21,737
Maybe we can have a conversation,
and it's like, okay.

996
00:48:21,837 --> 00:48:22,882
He, I gotta tell you, I'll try that.

997
00:48:22,882 --> 00:48:23,152
He's

998
00:48:23,152 --> 00:48:24,982
very, he is very sweet.

999
00:48:25,162 --> 00:48:26,392
He has to remind me.

1000
00:48:26,392 --> 00:48:29,722
He is like, remember, my win is your win.

1001
00:48:29,882 --> 00:48:30,692
Just smile.

1002
00:48:30,827 --> 00:48:31,117
Just,

1003
00:48:31,257 --> 00:48:32,477
I'm, I'm a very be

1004
00:48:32,477 --> 00:48:32,677
nice.

1005
00:48:33,267 --> 00:48:33,797
Okay, fine.

1006
00:48:33,797 --> 00:48:34,172
I reframe

1007
00:48:34,172 --> 00:48:35,672
everything for the positive.

1008
00:48:35,677 --> 00:48:35,997
Oh, yeah.

1009
00:48:36,002 --> 00:48:39,552
And so I'm, I'm overly positive
because I'm one of those believers that

1010
00:48:39,552 --> 00:48:41,152
positive thinking is positive results.

1011
00:48:41,152 --> 00:48:41,867
I'm the one behind him

1012
00:48:42,137 --> 00:48:43,347
just doing the, yeah.

1013
00:48:43,822 --> 00:48:46,882
And she's like, I know you
and your stupid positivity.

1014
00:48:46,882 --> 00:48:48,712
And I'm like, well,
that's not very positive.

1015
00:48:49,102 --> 00:48:54,022
But, uh, I'm just gonna take it this way,
that you really love my positivity and,

1016
00:48:54,442 --> 00:48:55,402
I'm, I'm learning.

1017
00:48:55,402 --> 00:49:01,332
I'm, I'm, even now, I, I feel like I
learned different ways of understanding

1018
00:49:01,392 --> 00:49:04,272
and navigating through this relationship.

1019
00:49:04,632 --> 00:49:07,482
So yeah, I guess I do have
some conversion sometimes.

1020
00:49:07,572 --> 00:49:08,027
So it, it,

1021
00:49:08,027 --> 00:49:11,262
but it's funny because when she told you,
she, she said very specifically, and I

1022
00:49:11,262 --> 00:49:15,192
didn't want to interrupt, but I'm gonna
throw this out there, you said, oh yeah.

1023
00:49:15,192 --> 00:49:16,422
I love it when he is happy.

1024
00:49:16,512 --> 00:49:16,842
Yeah.

1025
00:49:17,022 --> 00:49:20,412
I just don't wanna know how,
like, who made you happy.

1026
00:49:20,412 --> 00:49:21,012
Yeah, actually.

1027
00:49:21,312 --> 00:49:23,112
So she loves when she makes me

1028
00:49:23,117 --> 00:49:23,227
happy.

1029
00:49:23,727 --> 00:49:23,787
Yeah.

1030
00:49:23,787 --> 00:49:24,027
I got, I should, I, and we

1031
00:49:24,027 --> 00:49:26,007
had a whole conversation
about this about a week ago.

1032
00:49:26,007 --> 00:49:29,762
She said I, I love it when I make
you happy, but when you are happy

1033
00:49:29,762 --> 00:49:31,472
from other, from other people.

1034
00:49:31,502 --> 00:49:34,467
I don't wanna know, but
I would rather it be me.

1035
00:49:34,547 --> 00:49:35,312
I mean, I ask him and he'll tell

1036
00:49:35,312 --> 00:49:36,842
me, but then I'm like
I shouldn't have asked.

1037
00:49:36,842 --> 00:49:37,477
I really don't care.

1038
00:49:37,977 --> 00:49:39,052
I really don't care.

1039
00:49:39,052 --> 00:49:39,652
It's okay.

1040
00:49:39,657 --> 00:49:40,312
Yeah, yeah.

1041
00:49:40,402 --> 00:49:41,302
But yeah, no, it is.

1042
00:49:41,302 --> 00:49:43,552
Um, I like the way you put it.

1043
00:49:43,552 --> 00:49:47,562
It's very, um, I have a lot
of growth there, so it's, I

1044
00:49:47,562 --> 00:49:48,402
mean, it's straightforward.

1045
00:49:48,497 --> 00:49:48,787
Yeah.

1046
00:49:48,792 --> 00:49:49,122
Yeah.

1047
00:49:49,152 --> 00:49:50,062
I mean, it's straightforward.

1048
00:49:50,112 --> 00:49:51,222
There's no beating around that bush.

1049
00:49:51,252 --> 00:49:55,532
And I feel like if a lot of people
understood how to, I guess, word it

1050
00:49:55,892 --> 00:50:01,442
better and, and to still be able to
help their partner understand what

1051
00:50:01,442 --> 00:50:05,402
they're feeling and really like, delve
into it, I feel like a lot of people

1052
00:50:05,402 --> 00:50:12,222
would be better at poly or just ethical
non-monogamy kind of relationships.

1053
00:50:12,712 --> 00:50:13,282
Period.

1054
00:50:13,582 --> 00:50:14,677
Like just that I agree.

1055
00:50:15,082 --> 00:50:18,052
You know, like just, Hey, okay,
so that didn't make you feel

1056
00:50:18,052 --> 00:50:20,302
good, but let's talk about what.

1057
00:50:20,692 --> 00:50:22,342
Why didn't it make you feel good?

1058
00:50:22,642 --> 00:50:26,392
I ask myself those questions
when I'm feeling, super

1059
00:50:26,392 --> 00:50:28,252
territorial about something.

1060
00:50:28,522 --> 00:50:31,972
And I'm like, okay, well why, why am I,
why is this person that he's having a

1061
00:50:31,972 --> 00:50:36,352
conversation with, making me feel like
that that person's not talking to me.

1062
00:50:36,352 --> 00:50:37,522
Like, what is it about them?

1063
00:50:38,032 --> 00:50:42,202
And if I do a little
digging, I'm like, oh, okay.

1064
00:50:43,072 --> 00:50:43,672
I get it.

1065
00:50:43,672 --> 00:50:47,272
It's whatever, you know, whatever
I, whatever trauma I had previous

1066
00:50:47,272 --> 00:50:52,072
to this relationship is bringing
up, is coming up because of this.

1067
00:50:52,072 --> 00:50:54,052
So it's a lot of, um,

1068
00:50:54,442 --> 00:50:55,402
she's grown a lot.

1069
00:50:55,402 --> 00:50:58,912
I have over the just in the time that
we've had the podcast, because we

1070
00:50:58,912 --> 00:51:04,162
get to talk to wonderful people like
yourself who reshape these words to where

1071
00:51:04,162 --> 00:51:06,112
they, they sink in and she's like, oh.

1072
00:51:06,472 --> 00:51:06,892
Okay.

1073
00:51:06,892 --> 00:51:08,032
I didn't think about it that way.

1074
00:51:08,362 --> 00:51:08,422
Yeah.

1075
00:51:08,422 --> 00:51:11,422
And so that's why I'm, I'm lucky
because she takes away so much from a

1076
00:51:11,422 --> 00:51:13,162
lot of the people that we talk to now.

1077
00:51:13,162 --> 00:51:16,192
Martha, I will say you have a
wonderful way of putting things.

1078
00:51:16,472 --> 00:51:16,532
Yeah.

1079
00:51:16,622 --> 00:51:17,192
Because

1080
00:51:17,372 --> 00:51:19,532
it's so easy to understand,
like, well, you know, uh,

1081
00:51:19,922 --> 00:51:24,842
oftentimes you talk to a therapist
and you get very wordy answers that

1082
00:51:25,022 --> 00:51:27,632
we kind of sometimes have to dissect.

1083
00:51:28,002 --> 00:51:29,232
And that's not the case.

1084
00:51:29,232 --> 00:51:30,672
You, you put it very cut and dry.

1085
00:51:30,677 --> 00:51:31,332
And I love it.

1086
00:51:31,362 --> 00:51:33,552
I really, uh, enjoyed having you here.

1087
00:51:33,552 --> 00:51:38,952
Now, before we wrap up, I would like to
talk about what you got going on, uh,

1088
00:51:38,982 --> 00:51:43,062
'cause I saw that lovely book, and I
will say, I am gonna rush outta here.

1089
00:51:43,067 --> 00:51:44,667
I'm downloading actually download today.

1090
00:51:44,937 --> 00:51:45,227
Yeah.

1091
00:51:45,672 --> 00:51:47,872
I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be
reading your book here.

1092
00:51:48,172 --> 00:51:48,262
Yes.

1093
00:51:48,262 --> 00:51:48,982
Immediately.

1094
00:51:48,982 --> 00:51:50,842
And I recommend that all our listeners do.

1095
00:51:50,842 --> 00:51:51,052
So.

1096
00:51:51,052 --> 00:51:54,462
But if you could just get into
what you've got going on right now.

1097
00:51:54,552 --> 00:51:54,732
Yeah.

1098
00:51:54,732 --> 00:51:55,247
What's in your world.

1099
00:51:55,252 --> 00:51:56,322
What's, what's in your world?

1100
00:51:56,982 --> 00:51:58,692
So much, so much, so much.

1101
00:51:59,192 --> 00:52:03,422
I train therapists to work with
sex issues and consensual law.

1102
00:52:03,422 --> 00:52:04,682
Monogamies is a part of it.

1103
00:52:04,682 --> 00:52:08,862
And for that for therapists and
coaches and other care providers.

1104
00:52:08,862 --> 00:52:12,102
I have an online course, I have a
consulting group, I have a book.

1105
00:52:12,732 --> 00:52:16,602
And for therapists and coaches and
care providers who wanna get better at

1106
00:52:16,602 --> 00:52:19,092
working with sex issues, generally not.

1107
00:52:19,342 --> 00:52:21,442
Specifically non monogamies.

1108
00:52:21,922 --> 00:52:27,542
I have all kinds of trainings available,
and I have a new podcast called Untangling

1109
00:52:27,542 --> 00:52:33,272
Intimacy, uh, which is a conversation
between me and Dr. Sky Henry Smith, both

1110
00:52:33,272 --> 00:52:39,152
of us sex therapists, and we're talking
about various aspects of sex and sexuality

1111
00:52:39,152 --> 00:52:42,152
from the viewpoint of the therapy room.

1112
00:52:42,152 --> 00:52:45,302
So it's, I think, of particular interest.

1113
00:52:45,812 --> 00:52:48,962
To therapists, coaches and care
providers who might wanna get

1114
00:52:48,962 --> 00:52:50,732
better at working with sex issues.

1115
00:52:51,182 --> 00:52:54,932
But I also think it's relevant,
especially as it goes on over time.

1116
00:52:55,042 --> 00:52:57,802
Now there's only so long we can
talk about why you would talk

1117
00:52:57,802 --> 00:52:59,452
about sex and therapy pretty soon.

1118
00:53:00,202 --> 00:53:00,682
Um,

1119
00:53:00,952 --> 00:53:04,857
we have found ourselves talking more and
more just about various things, like how

1120
00:53:04,937 --> 00:53:06,952
do you wanna unpack issues around consent?

1121
00:53:06,982 --> 00:53:08,122
How do you think about this?

1122
00:53:08,122 --> 00:53:09,082
How do you think about that?

1123
00:53:09,502 --> 00:53:11,032
What about desire discrepancy?

1124
00:53:11,032 --> 00:53:14,512
How, how about differences
between sex partners differences

1125
00:53:15,032 --> 00:53:16,652
of opinion of all kinds.

1126
00:53:16,652 --> 00:53:19,592
And I'm sure at some point we'll be
talking about non monogamies as well.

1127
00:53:19,672 --> 00:53:21,542
That just recently came out.

1128
00:53:21,542 --> 00:53:24,992
We have a new episode every week and,
um, so far only three of them are out.

1129
00:53:24,992 --> 00:53:26,662
But you can check that out as well.

1130
00:53:27,652 --> 00:53:27,922
Wow.

1131
00:53:27,922 --> 00:53:30,922
And a new episode every week,
you know, from a person who puts

1132
00:53:30,922 --> 00:53:34,402
out two episodes every week, I
can tell you that is exhausting.

1133
00:53:34,552 --> 00:53:34,792
Exhausting.

1134
00:53:35,292 --> 00:53:37,332
I ran out of topics in my fourth week.

1135
00:53:37,832 --> 00:53:39,667
Well, and we've had it it for a while.

1136
00:53:39,757 --> 00:53:39,967
Yeah.

1137
00:53:40,377 --> 00:53:43,407
When we're talking about sex issues,
we are never gonna run out of that.

1138
00:53:43,407 --> 00:53:45,537
You're never gonna, I was gonna
say, you're never gonna run out.

1139
00:53:45,537 --> 00:53:45,777
Yeah.

1140
00:53:45,807 --> 00:53:49,167
We finally figured out, just, just
how, how we could keep it fresh.

1141
00:53:49,167 --> 00:53:52,707
And we started, things started coming
up immediately, but yeah, by the

1142
00:53:52,707 --> 00:53:54,537
fourth week I was like, yeah, I'm done.

1143
00:53:54,627 --> 00:53:54,717
Well,

1144
00:53:55,217 --> 00:53:58,992
I'm super excited that that's a lot
going on and a lot of information

1145
00:53:58,992 --> 00:54:00,662
that that's at people's fingertips.

1146
00:54:00,662 --> 00:54:01,112
So

1147
00:54:01,202 --> 00:54:02,252
yeah, we're definitely

1148
00:54:02,252 --> 00:54:04,832
gonna put all of your
information on our website.

1149
00:54:04,832 --> 00:54:04,892
Yeah.

1150
00:54:04,892 --> 00:54:05,852
It's gonna be on our website.

1151
00:54:05,882 --> 00:54:09,152
Uh, we have a guest bio that you'll
be featured on and all of the

1152
00:54:09,152 --> 00:54:12,452
information that, that everybody's
gonna be looking for, we'll be

1153
00:54:12,452 --> 00:54:14,282
there and as well as our show notes.

1154
00:54:14,287 --> 00:54:14,317
Yeah.

1155
00:54:14,642 --> 00:54:14,912
Yeah.

1156
00:54:14,962 --> 00:54:17,722
, Martha, this has been
an amazing conversation.

1157
00:54:17,722 --> 00:54:18,712
I really enjoyed it.

1158
00:54:18,962 --> 00:54:22,442
Thank you so much for coming on,
for sharing your perspective, your

1159
00:54:22,442 --> 00:54:25,772
work, everything that you're seeing
in the relationship space right now.

1160
00:54:26,192 --> 00:54:26,942
Yeah, seriously.

1161
00:54:26,942 --> 00:54:30,932
I mean, I grew a little bit and I loved
it, so I know that our listeners are

1162
00:54:30,932 --> 00:54:33,272
going to enjoy everything because.

1163
00:54:33,827 --> 00:54:36,227
They like to listen to me
being like, called out.

1164
00:54:36,727 --> 00:54:37,837
And I, I enjoy it myself.

1165
00:54:37,837 --> 00:54:42,087
I say for everyone listening, if you
wanna connect with Martha, learn more

1166
00:54:42,087 --> 00:54:45,597
about her work or follow what she's
doing, you can find her at her website.

1167
00:54:45,807 --> 00:54:48,267
That's www.marthak.com.

1168
00:54:48,267 --> 00:54:51,597
Now, that's gonna be in our show
notes as well as right here.

1169
00:54:51,627 --> 00:54:52,617
You'll be able to see it.

1170
00:54:52,617 --> 00:54:52,947
Yes.

1171
00:54:53,007 --> 00:54:54,267
Pop up if you're watching us.

1172
00:54:54,597 --> 00:54:56,097
Uh, her Instagram as well.

1173
00:54:56,277 --> 00:55:01,827
Actually it's www do institute
for relational intimacy.com.

1174
00:55:01,832 --> 00:55:02,042
Oh,

1175
00:55:02,542 --> 00:55:03,122
my apologies.

1176
00:55:03,792 --> 00:55:04,082
Okay.

1177
00:55:04,152 --> 00:55:04,442
Yeah.

1178
00:55:04,442 --> 00:55:04,642
Okay.

1179
00:55:04,882 --> 00:55:05,907
I have old information

1180
00:55:06,087 --> 00:55:11,457
help me com, which forwards to Institute
for Relational Intimacy, but Institute

1181
00:55:11,457 --> 00:55:13,227
for Relational Intimacy is my URL.

1182
00:55:13,647 --> 00:55:14,157
Okay.

1183
00:55:14,162 --> 00:55:14,172
Well.

1184
00:55:15,027 --> 00:55:15,327
Gonna

1185
00:55:15,417 --> 00:55:15,747
put that,

1186
00:55:15,747 --> 00:55:16,767
I will update that.

1187
00:55:16,772 --> 00:55:17,052
There you go.

1188
00:55:17,052 --> 00:55:19,237
So I, I'll be certain to
have that to where that is is

1189
00:55:19,237 --> 00:55:20,377
the first thing to come up.

1190
00:55:20,647 --> 00:55:24,817
All of, uh, any socials, anything
like that, we will have listed on our

1191
00:55:24,817 --> 00:55:27,157
social medias as well as our website.

1192
00:55:27,397 --> 00:55:29,887
Uh, so you can find it
there on show notes as well.

1193
00:55:30,292 --> 00:55:30,952
Beyond family.

1194
00:55:30,952 --> 00:55:34,652
Remember, if you haven't yet, make
sure you check out our website

1195
00:55:34,652 --> 00:55:36,452
at www.beyond-monogamy.com.

1196
00:55:36,472 --> 00:55:39,982
That's where you're gonna find all
of our episodes, audio and video, our

1197
00:55:39,982 --> 00:55:43,942
blogs, guest bios, merch, and the full
event calendar, showing you where we're

1198
00:55:43,942 --> 00:55:45,022
gonna be every month, every month.

1199
00:55:45,522 --> 00:55:47,682
You'll also find our Beyond
Monogamy confessional there.

1200
00:55:47,802 --> 00:55:53,142
It's 100% anonymous because I know you
guys are very afraid to ask your questions

1201
00:55:53,142 --> 00:55:54,372
and have your name attached to it.

1202
00:55:54,792 --> 00:55:56,442
There is no way to be found out.

1203
00:55:56,442 --> 00:55:59,292
You can submit your stories,
experiences, questions, lifestyle

1204
00:55:59,292 --> 00:56:03,882
situations, or even just life stuff,
and we will read it and discuss it.

1205
00:56:03,882 --> 00:56:06,732
And if you say it's okay to talk
about it on the show, we will

1206
00:56:06,732 --> 00:56:08,142
absolutely talk about it on the show.

1207
00:56:08,527 --> 00:56:08,857
Yes.

1208
00:56:08,917 --> 00:56:12,067
And don't forget that you can also
hear us on full swap radio.com every

1209
00:56:12,067 --> 00:56:14,797
Thursday at 2:00 PM and 7:00 PM Central.

1210
00:56:14,857 --> 00:56:15,217
Yes.

1211
00:56:15,217 --> 00:56:18,037
And one more reminder, if
the show brings you value.

1212
00:56:18,577 --> 00:56:21,067
Please help us grow in this
community by liking, subscribing,

1213
00:56:21,067 --> 00:56:23,077
sharing, and leaving us a review.

1214
00:56:23,407 --> 00:56:25,597
It really helps more
people find this show.

1215
00:56:25,747 --> 00:56:26,107
Yes.

1216
00:56:26,107 --> 00:56:27,427
And we appreciate it more than you know.

1217
00:56:27,727 --> 00:56:28,087
Yes.

1218
00:56:28,087 --> 00:56:31,387
And with that, we will
see you guys next week.

1219
00:56:31,477 --> 00:56:31,897
Bye.