Jealousy, Labels & Latino Love: Psychologist Jaime Gama on Ethical Non-Monogamy, Swinging vs. Poly, & Building Community

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Alright y'all, before we
dive in, a quick heads up.

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This show is raw, real, and
definitely not rated pg.

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We're talking about adult themes, sexual
content, and the kind of stuff you

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probably don't want blasting through your
speakers at work or around your kits.

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So grab some headphones, pour your
drink of choice and get comfy.

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Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not
licensed therapists, counselors, or sex.

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Couches.

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Sex coaches.

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Sex coaches, not sex couches

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or just a couple of people sharing our
lives, experiences and sexy adventures.

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An ethical non-monogamy.

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So with that, pull up a
chair and enjoy the show.

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And.

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Hello and welcome to Beyond Monogamy.

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I'm Adam.

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And I'm Pris.

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And today we've got a guest who
is making huge waves in the world

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of ethical relationships, both
monogamous and non monogamous.

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That's right.

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We're sitting down with Jaime Gamma,
a psychologist and Gestalt therapist,

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the creator of Gotitas De Polimar,
and an author whose book Si te duele,

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ahi no es is helping people rethink
how they approach love and connection.

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That's right.

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Jaime's work has been published.

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He's led workshops and webinars,
and he's built an online community

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of over a million followers across
Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, making

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complex ideas about relationships,
accessible, funny, and deeply practical.

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We're excited to dive into everything
from breaking down romantic myths, to

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handling jealousy to what it really
takes to build relationships rooted

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in clarity, honesty, and compassion.

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Nice.

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So, Jaime Gama, please
welcome to Beyond Monogamy.

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Thank for Hi.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm very excited.

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Yeah.

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I love that shirt, by the way.

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That's a great shirt.

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I know.

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So where

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I literally, I had a, I had a friend
who was wearing, and I was like,

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I'm gonna steal this shirt from you.

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It's so cute.

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It's a really,

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and he literally took the shirt
off his back and gave it to me.

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He was like, you get so
much here, it's yours.

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I was like, oh, I love you so much.

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I love that.

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So it, that was, it's a great story.

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And

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You have a friend who literally
gave them the shirt Yeah.

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Off your back.

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She did.

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Yeah, I did.

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That's incredible.

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Where are you at right now?

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Tell us where you're,

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I'm in Chicago.

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I'm staying at one of my partners,
uh, condo with his husband.

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Okay.

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I'm here for, still like,
been here for like a month.

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A little over a month.

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Yeah.

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I stay here for a few more weeks.

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Okay.

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So, yeah.

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I love that.

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All right.

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Nice.

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Um, if you wouldn't mind, if you could
just kind of, uh, give us a little bit

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of your background, like, uh, as far as.

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Your journey into ethical non-monogamy?

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Yeah.

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Kind of when it started
and how you ended up here.

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Well, that's, that's, yeah.

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Um, well, you know, I always, when I
started my first romantic relationships

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around 18 I was very monogamous.

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Like, sex has to be with somebody
who you love and whatever.

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But as I grew, I would start having
these spring crushes I call them.

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Oh.

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And at the time, anytime I felt something
for someone, I immediately panicked

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and I was like, no, this is wrong.

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If you feel things for someone
else, it means you don't love your

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partner and you're, that's wrong.

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You don't, you don't do that.

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Right.

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Um, I didn't notice this until
way later, but I always had this,

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these moments of every year, like
it's rank thing, I don't know.

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And I started to go like ex, like doing
a lot of research in non monogamy for

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my for for my bachelor's of psychology.

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And, uh, eventually I started
dating someone who, well, I tried,

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I tried open relationships a little
bit, but I was not, I don't know.

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And I met someone who
said, I'm polyamorous.

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And like, I don't know what
that is and I don't care.

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'cause it sounds horrible
and it's like a devil.

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So I'm not, I'm not doing that.

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And I said, if you wanna be with
me, you would be monogamous.

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We might might open the relationship
down the road a little bit,

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but that's all I can offer.

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And he was like, that's fine.

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I can totally you monogamous with you.

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I'm like, okay, let's do it.

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And we were monogamous for like a year and
a half and then a year and a half into it,

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we started exploring like monogamish, like
we would open it to, we put, we would have

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sex with people together, only together.

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Okay.

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It was great.

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We had a great time.

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It was, yeah.

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Beautiful how we grew together.

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And it took like six years, a little over
six years until we met the first person

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who would get us into this whole mess and.

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I was very much like, I okay if
it was, I didn't know better.

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Like I judged myself.

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I was like, nobody can fall in love.

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If you fall in love.

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This is over.

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I told him, oh my goodness.

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The third guy, and of course who fell
in love first, but I didn't know.

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I didn't know.

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So one day I wake up and I'm talking to my
partner at the time, and he is like, you

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do know you're in love with him, right?

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I'm like, no, I'm not.

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I don't do that.

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And I was like, oh wait.

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I am in love with him.

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I don't know what to do with this.

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And at the time I was doing my master's,
I started my master's in psychotherapy

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and I was like, any other project?

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So just talk about pull
Marie, why not that smart?

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And I started learning about
that's, well, I needed it.

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And then, when I started looking into
it, I joined this Facebook group in

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Spanish from Mexico, which I will
never reveal that name of that group.

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Hopefully, maybe that's

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okay.

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And it's

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just I always, always want to, and
I said, I'm feeling very jealous.

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I'm starting out.

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I don't know what, what to do.

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And I had this whole thread of
people saying that I was, I don't

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know, they just, they a insult me.

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They said that I was being
controlling and toxic and codependent.

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And I'm like, oh, I guess they're
right because they know and I don't.

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Mm-hmm.

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Until eventually I got to the
podcast multi, I dunno if you

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know them, they're incredible.

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Yes, they do.

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And they have a PAT community.

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And I joined them and it
was so compassionate and

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beautiful and wonderful and

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I was like, I'm not a monster.

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It's a time feelings.

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And I thought, I need this content
in Spanish just for me, you know,

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like if I, if there's another
me anywhere that needs this.

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So I started like sharing
information on Instagram.

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Until the pandemic.

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Mm-hmm.

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And

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then my, my manager, my who's my
partner at the time, he said, why

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don't you share what you think?

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And I was like, nobody cares what I think

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you wanna know

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about authors and people
who have experienced things.

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He's like, give it a
shot, and here we are.

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And there you are.

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Yeah.

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You hit a few nails on the head.

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It's hard for when we're Latinos
and it's not something that is

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very present within the Latino
community or it's not spoken of.

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Right.

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But if you have a Sancho over
San, that's just different.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And, and you know, that's, that's
something that we ran into a lot.

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We didn't when we opened
up and we became poly.

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Yeah.

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I remember because we're from South
Texas initially when we, when we became

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poly, and I remember being out there
and being on the apps and having women

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tell me, I would rather you cheat.

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Then have it out in the open.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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And I didn't hear that from one, but
two, but it was about three or four

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different women that told me that.

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Wow.

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And I thought, I am in the wrong town.

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Like this is not, you know, it's like
my wife is saying it's okay and you

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guys are telling me I gotta hide it.

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I don't, that's not cool.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was like, oh, well that's crazy.

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That's playing with life
right there because.

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A Latina, I'm gonna stab
you if you cheat on me,

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but then I'll let you, I'll let
you go have sex with whomever,

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but I wanna know who it's

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isn't that nice?

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Yeah.

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But you know, that's, that's really
where we struggled was Yes, it was.

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We, we wanted to find others, a group.

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Yeah.

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You know, that, that we can really,
you know, we can all kind of

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understand each other and, you know,
several of us come from the same

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background, that sort of thing.

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It's just easier to
understand and get along.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's very true.

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Yeah.

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And so we looked for that.

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Uh, when we were poly, we looked
for that kind of community and

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being so close to the border, we
figured we could find and we didn't.

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We did not.

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We, we absolutely did not because
it seemed like the pushback

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was, uh, you know, obviously
our people are very rooted in.

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The religion in the Catholic
religion most times.

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Yeah.

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And uh, that really just kind of, I
think cheating is more acceptable.

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Yes.

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You can go to church and you can
confess those sins and it's okay.

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And do it again on Monday.

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That's right.

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They have a weekly so
you can just renew your

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That's right.

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That's right.

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But you know, that, that was the, the
pushback that we had almost found.

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And so when with your situation,
I, I would assume you, you

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found the same kind of pushback.

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I did actually, my master's, uh,
research or my, the point of my thesis

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was to find out what helped gay men who
identified as polyamorous figure it out.

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And I thought it was, it would be like
the cons, the constructing masculinity

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or finding out communication, but
it turned out it was community.

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Finding community was the moment they
actually were felt free and to explore.

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And it was the same case for me.

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Okay.

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And in Mexico it was really hard for
me to find a community or people who

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were open to exploring that were not
in this, like better than, like holy

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than Dao I know how to do polyamory.

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Right.

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Which I always said is, it's, it's in
my book, one of the things that I say

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is that I believe there's only one
myth of love, which is thinking that

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there's one way to love for everybody.

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Mm-hmm.

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And

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all the other myths come from that.

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Mm-hmm.

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And what's funny is there's a lot of
radical polyamorous or non-monogamous

248
00:10:04,737 --> 00:10:08,277
people who will go, no, monogamy
is wrong because they'll tell you

249
00:10:08,277 --> 00:10:10,917
how to love, but you have to do
poly this way, or you're wrong.

250
00:10:10,917 --> 00:10:12,177
And I like, it's the exact same thing.

251
00:10:12,567 --> 00:10:13,887
You're doing the exact same message.

252
00:10:14,697 --> 00:10:18,207
So I had to explore or
find other communities.

253
00:10:18,567 --> 00:10:21,957
In the end, I met who was one of
my satellite partners at the time.

254
00:10:21,957 --> 00:10:22,977
I call him himself a partner.

255
00:10:23,307 --> 00:10:25,467
Uh, he's, we have different
kink relationship, but

256
00:10:25,467 --> 00:10:27,807
it's, you know, that's, and.

257
00:10:28,332 --> 00:10:33,522
When I met him, he had his probably kill,
I'm gonna say it's about 15 to 20 people.

258
00:10:33,912 --> 00:10:33,972
Oh, okay.

259
00:10:34,302 --> 00:10:36,672
And like of course they're all together.

260
00:10:36,822 --> 00:10:39,552
It's mostly like, you know,
independent partner Oh,

261
00:10:39,552 --> 00:10:39,672
gotcha.

262
00:10:39,672 --> 00:10:39,882
Partners.

263
00:10:39,882 --> 00:10:39,892
Mm-hmm.

264
00:10:40,567 --> 00:10:44,172
But I was fascinated since Sunday
family dinners, there were like

265
00:10:44,172 --> 00:10:46,062
15, 20 people coming to dinner.

266
00:10:46,392 --> 00:10:46,602
Oh, wow.

267
00:10:46,632 --> 00:10:49,212
And we were all connected somehow.

268
00:10:49,372 --> 00:10:49,382
Beautiful.

269
00:10:49,382 --> 00:10:53,632
You know, we would find like, you are
this person's partner's, partner, partner.

270
00:10:54,442 --> 00:10:55,462
And you'd be like, yeah.

271
00:10:55,492 --> 00:10:57,832
So we're like, like
grand, grand meta marks.

272
00:10:59,092 --> 00:11:03,682
Uh, and even like now here in Chicago,
I still, I, I still have them.

273
00:11:04,162 --> 00:11:05,932
And to me it feels like a family.

274
00:11:05,932 --> 00:11:07,402
You know, I was never a family person.

275
00:11:07,582 --> 00:11:08,062
Right.

276
00:11:08,092 --> 00:11:08,212
And

277
00:11:08,212 --> 00:11:10,852
this feels like a nice
family that is there for me.

278
00:11:10,852 --> 00:11:16,042
So finding a community of people I
can talk with about these things and

279
00:11:16,042 --> 00:11:17,632
be like, well, have I seen meta more?

280
00:11:17,632 --> 00:11:19,102
And someone says, yeah.

281
00:11:19,132 --> 00:11:20,152
I'm like, you're my people.

282
00:11:20,872 --> 00:11:21,532
I feel so safe with you.

283
00:11:23,602 --> 00:11:23,842
I

284
00:11:23,842 --> 00:11:24,382
love that.

285
00:11:24,382 --> 00:11:24,862
Get me all ready.

286
00:11:25,867 --> 00:11:26,567
Yes, exactly.

287
00:11:28,222 --> 00:11:30,952
So you're, you're a therapist, right?

288
00:11:30,952 --> 00:11:31,012
Yeah.

289
00:11:31,012 --> 00:11:35,122
So from a a therapist perspective, how
do you feel that people navigate the

290
00:11:35,122 --> 00:11:39,682
difference between fantasizing about
non-monogamy and actually living it out?

291
00:11:40,552 --> 00:11:41,032
Not well.

292
00:11:41,362 --> 00:11:41,932
No.

293
00:11:42,112 --> 00:11:42,772
Not well at all.

294
00:11:43,492 --> 00:11:43,552
No.

295
00:11:43,552 --> 00:11:46,792
The thing, and I blame the media,
of course, I, uh, I don't blame the

296
00:11:46,792 --> 00:11:51,592
media, but a lot of people, what
we see in me in media is that, uh,

297
00:11:51,652 --> 00:11:53,902
polyamory is a throuple like a triad.

298
00:11:54,352 --> 00:11:54,562
Correct?

299
00:11:54,562 --> 00:11:54,652
Yeah.

300
00:11:54,892 --> 00:11:59,662
And that is the most complicated
configuration of polyamory.

301
00:12:00,082 --> 00:12:02,842
I always say people think
it's like a monogamy plus one.

302
00:12:03,142 --> 00:12:03,322
When

303
00:12:03,322 --> 00:12:06,962
it's hand relationships to take
care of it's not just three people,

304
00:12:07,202 --> 00:12:11,072
it's how each person relates to each
other and how each person relates

305
00:12:11,072 --> 00:12:12,417
to the other two as a couple.

306
00:12:12,807 --> 00:12:14,697
So a lot of people come to me,
they're not anthrop, and they,

307
00:12:14,697 --> 00:12:15,537
I don't know what's happening.

308
00:12:15,537 --> 00:12:17,232
I'm like, well, how's your
relationship as a metamore?

309
00:12:18,162 --> 00:12:21,312
Two, your partners as a relationship.

310
00:12:21,612 --> 00:12:27,132
Not as like to I don't know Rob
and Bruno, but you have to connect

311
00:12:27,132 --> 00:12:28,692
with them when they are a couple.

312
00:12:28,932 --> 00:12:31,362
So that's one relationship
you have to nurture.

313
00:12:31,462 --> 00:12:33,412
And then they have to
do the same with you.

314
00:12:33,952 --> 00:12:35,572
And then what about your
relationship with yourself?

315
00:12:35,872 --> 00:12:35,932
Yeah.

316
00:12:35,932 --> 00:12:37,282
You need that time too.

317
00:12:37,462 --> 00:12:37,732
Yeah.

318
00:12:37,822 --> 00:12:41,752
And then every, it's so much and
people think it's, it's the first

319
00:12:41,752 --> 00:12:43,102
thing they try and it explodes.

320
00:12:43,102 --> 00:12:45,202
Like it's just, I'm not
saying it doesn't work.

321
00:12:45,412 --> 00:12:47,782
People who understand what
it is, I make it work.

322
00:12:47,842 --> 00:12:47,962
Yes.

323
00:12:48,532 --> 00:12:50,092
It's not monogamy plus one.

324
00:12:50,512 --> 00:12:50,692
Yeah.

325
00:12:50,752 --> 00:12:50,932
Uh,

326
00:12:50,932 --> 00:12:51,712
I get a lot of that.

327
00:12:52,252 --> 00:12:52,582
Okay.

328
00:12:52,642 --> 00:12:54,382
I get a lot of, uh, hierarchy.

329
00:12:54,742 --> 00:12:58,012
I have very particular
opinions of hierarchy.

330
00:12:58,642 --> 00:13:01,252
My, my partner here in Chicago is married.

331
00:13:01,552 --> 00:13:01,882
Okay.

332
00:13:02,152 --> 00:13:07,462
And of course there is a, uh, like a grand
scheme of hierarchy that we cannot avoid.

333
00:13:07,512 --> 00:13:07,602
Sure.

334
00:13:07,632 --> 00:13:08,262
If there's legal

335
00:13:08,262 --> 00:13:10,632
things and couples privilege
that we cannot avoid.

336
00:13:10,662 --> 00:13:11,172
'cause it's not.

337
00:13:11,577 --> 00:13:12,867
Something we could change.

338
00:13:13,077 --> 00:13:13,227
Correct.

339
00:13:13,227 --> 00:13:19,887
That hierarchy is beyond the power, but in
the, the hierarchy, in the relationship.

340
00:13:19,887 --> 00:13:21,237
That's what I have issues.

341
00:13:21,797 --> 00:13:25,847
Like if they were to decide my
relationship with my partner without

342
00:13:25,847 --> 00:13:30,677
my consent or my saying anything, to me
that's dehumanizing and objectifying.

343
00:13:31,187 --> 00:13:31,637
No, it is.

344
00:13:31,637 --> 00:13:32,627
I mean, people, yeah.

345
00:13:33,077 --> 00:13:33,467
Right.

346
00:13:33,557 --> 00:13:33,737
Yeah.

347
00:13:33,767 --> 00:13:36,107
And the thing is I tell people
because they're like, well, yeah,

348
00:13:36,107 --> 00:13:37,517
but I'm protecting my relationship.

349
00:13:37,522 --> 00:13:38,312
They're like, how are you?

350
00:13:38,987 --> 00:13:44,477
And the thing is, you are creating
a, a, a problem and you are setting

351
00:13:44,477 --> 00:13:48,197
the precedent that Yes, someone is
more important than someone else.

352
00:13:48,347 --> 00:13:48,437
Yeah.

353
00:13:48,467 --> 00:13:53,027
So you have evidence that yes, it
could be you, someone could change

354
00:13:53,027 --> 00:13:55,877
like the relationship with you
because they like someone else better.

355
00:13:56,087 --> 00:13:57,977
You're confirming that information.

356
00:13:58,277 --> 00:13:58,607
Yeah.

357
00:13:58,847 --> 00:14:02,117
And secondly, it's not
gonna make you feel better.

358
00:14:02,927 --> 00:14:03,017
Yeah.

359
00:14:03,017 --> 00:14:04,622
Because you're thinking about, I feel like

360
00:14:04,622 --> 00:14:06,137
that's, that's what happened to us.

361
00:14:06,137 --> 00:14:06,197
Yeah.

362
00:14:06,647 --> 00:14:09,107
I was, I felt like I was a higher power.

363
00:14:09,572 --> 00:14:13,082
And I was a higher power over his
girlfriends and I was a higher power.

364
00:14:13,082 --> 00:14:17,012
So I totally, I can relate to that and
I would always ruin his relationship.

365
00:14:17,012 --> 00:14:18,242
I'd be like I should have the one for you.

366
00:14:18,542 --> 00:14:18,932
Oh yeah.

367
00:14:18,932 --> 00:14:22,352
No, and we, we talk about it openly,
you know, I it now, but yeah, we've come

368
00:14:22,352 --> 00:14:23,552
to terms with what it was that's for

369
00:14:23,552 --> 00:14:23,792
sure.

370
00:14:23,792 --> 00:14:25,982
Something that can't be changed and Yeah.

371
00:14:25,982 --> 00:14:28,202
And my brain, I was just like, what?

372
00:14:28,232 --> 00:14:29,252
This one's mine.

373
00:14:29,282 --> 00:14:30,797
He, I am exactly.

374
00:14:31,197 --> 00:14:33,002
I am above them, everybody.

375
00:14:33,002 --> 00:14:36,277
So, yeah, but I mean, I'm
sure you get, it's, it's,

376
00:14:36,282 --> 00:14:39,892
and she's a work in progress, she's
always, aren't we all, she's always

377
00:14:39,892 --> 00:14:43,642
learning more and more and, and
she's, she's come a long wages since

378
00:14:43,642 --> 00:14:45,052
we've, uh, started the podcast, Hey,

379
00:14:45,052 --> 00:14:50,322
Polly person I haven't gotten in my
brain that I understand how it works.

380
00:14:50,322 --> 00:14:54,102
And I, I love that we have lots
of friends that are poly and

381
00:14:54,162 --> 00:14:57,402
it's so beautiful to see how that
relationship really works for them.

382
00:14:58,662 --> 00:15:04,572
I just don't, my mental state isn't
there, and I can be 100% honest that.

383
00:15:05,022 --> 00:15:08,232
That relationship wise, I cannot share.

384
00:15:08,652 --> 00:15:13,572
Um, I can share him friendship wise
and I can share him sexually, but my

385
00:15:13,572 --> 00:15:15,342
relationship is just, I don't know.

386
00:15:15,342 --> 00:15:18,672
I think I'm just so controlling in that,
that I want him all the time, you know?

387
00:15:18,732 --> 00:15:21,612
And it is, I'm very, I'm a very
controlling person, and so it's

388
00:15:21,612 --> 00:15:22,872
like, I just want him with me.

389
00:15:22,872 --> 00:15:23,082
That's true.

390
00:15:23,472 --> 00:15:24,102
It is true.

391
00:15:25,017 --> 00:15:25,437
Anyway.

392
00:15:25,947 --> 00:15:26,237
Okay.

393
00:15:27,837 --> 00:15:30,522
I don't, I don't, I don't
consider myself poly

394
00:15:30,762 --> 00:15:31,152
No.

395
00:15:31,152 --> 00:15:31,212
You

396
00:15:31,212 --> 00:15:37,037
know, for, for all the things that I, I, I
don't think I don't, it's not my identity.

397
00:15:37,337 --> 00:15:37,727
Okay.

398
00:15:37,937 --> 00:15:40,267
I feel more, more like,
I'm non-monogamous.

399
00:15:40,477 --> 00:15:41,167
Okay, sure.

400
00:15:41,377 --> 00:15:43,837
It's like when you talk about people,
like straight men who have sex with

401
00:15:43,837 --> 00:15:46,627
men, and it's like, they're not,
their identity is not being gay.

402
00:15:46,627 --> 00:15:50,257
Like being gay is more than just
touching someone else's genitals.

403
00:15:50,257 --> 00:15:51,097
Like it's the identity.

404
00:15:51,097 --> 00:15:53,347
It's a community, it's a, it's history.

405
00:15:53,347 --> 00:15:57,637
And yeah, perme polyamory is not
an identity, but non monogamy is, I

406
00:15:57,637 --> 00:16:00,037
have partners who are polyamorous.

407
00:16:00,037 --> 00:16:01,567
Like I know, okay, this
what I was talking about.

408
00:16:01,567 --> 00:16:02,407
Like, he's poly.

409
00:16:02,407 --> 00:16:03,727
That's, that's who he is.

410
00:16:03,757 --> 00:16:03,847
Mm-hmm.

411
00:16:04,087 --> 00:16:06,637
It's part of how he connects with people.

412
00:16:06,637 --> 00:16:08,437
It's very easy for him to do this.

413
00:16:08,537 --> 00:16:10,097
For me to require a little more work.

414
00:16:10,307 --> 00:16:11,627
I am, I'm okay with it.

415
00:16:11,627 --> 00:16:12,407
I can do it.

416
00:16:12,467 --> 00:16:13,217
I enjoy it.

417
00:16:13,217 --> 00:16:17,507
Once I get it, I don't
identify with it necessarily.

418
00:16:17,507 --> 00:16:17,627
Yeah.

419
00:16:17,627 --> 00:16:18,677
So I get, I get that part.

420
00:16:18,827 --> 00:16:19,127
Yeah.

421
00:16:19,187 --> 00:16:20,717
Now I find, I find that interesting.

422
00:16:20,777 --> 00:16:21,167
Hi man.

423
00:16:21,167 --> 00:16:23,957
I, I have a quick question with that, and
I don't know how quick it is actually.

424
00:16:24,357 --> 00:16:28,337
But we've had this discussion because
she's always said when it came to

425
00:16:28,337 --> 00:16:31,397
dating, you know, she's not a poly
person, et cetera, et cetera, but

426
00:16:32,567 --> 00:16:34,847
we have a girlfriend that we date.

427
00:16:35,267 --> 00:16:36,197
It's romantic.

428
00:16:36,797 --> 00:16:37,367
Get that.

429
00:16:37,547 --> 00:16:40,577
So what we, but who we, but
what we realized was, yeah.

430
00:16:40,577 --> 00:16:42,347
Oh, hang on a second there, honey.

431
00:16:43,247 --> 00:16:46,127
What we realized was,
was that it was labels.

432
00:16:46,367 --> 00:16:46,577
Okay.

433
00:16:46,727 --> 00:16:46,937
Yeah.

434
00:16:46,967 --> 00:16:51,187
Uh, and so that's where we
started, talking about how, okay.

435
00:16:51,742 --> 00:16:53,272
We don't need labels.

436
00:16:53,482 --> 00:16:57,802
We are non-monogamous
and that is what it is.

437
00:16:58,792 --> 00:17:01,822
And we don't, and we don't
have to call it anything else.

438
00:17:02,152 --> 00:17:05,362
I mean, I can write it down in
my journal however I need to.

439
00:17:07,372 --> 00:17:07,432
Yeah.

440
00:17:07,432 --> 00:17:11,182
But, but you know, I mean, realistically
it, what it comes down to is, is

441
00:17:11,182 --> 00:17:16,202
some people really embrace the labels
and some people really push it away.

442
00:17:16,262 --> 00:17:16,442
Yeah.

443
00:17:16,442 --> 00:17:22,142
Now, as far as, as not only from
somebody who's living the life, but

444
00:17:22,142 --> 00:17:27,452
also from a therapist standpoint,
how do you feel about labels in this?

445
00:17:27,902 --> 00:17:28,682
I love labels.

446
00:17:28,712 --> 00:17:28,922
Yeah.

447
00:17:28,922 --> 00:17:30,002
I love blah blah labels.

448
00:17:30,002 --> 00:17:31,052
I'm very artistic.

449
00:17:31,412 --> 00:17:36,002
If I could label the world, I would, it
just being like being clear is so happy.

450
00:17:36,092 --> 00:17:37,682
But I think the issue is I love

451
00:17:37,682 --> 00:17:37,892
it.

452
00:17:38,717 --> 00:17:42,827
How we, we, we confuse molds
with labels all the time.

453
00:17:43,097 --> 00:17:43,247
Sure.

454
00:17:43,397 --> 00:17:44,387
And that's a big issue.

455
00:17:44,477 --> 00:17:44,897
Okay.

456
00:17:44,987 --> 00:17:48,167
Uh, I, I was dating some, my, my manager
actually today, uh, who was a part of

457
00:17:48,167 --> 00:17:51,707
the time when I started dating, I said,
I would like to be your boyfriend.

458
00:17:51,707 --> 00:17:54,077
He said, I don't like
boyfriend, like the word boy.

459
00:17:54,107 --> 00:17:55,037
I don't like that word.

460
00:17:55,667 --> 00:17:57,577
And I said, okay I don't
know what to do now.

461
00:17:58,477 --> 00:18:00,607
Um, and I said, well, what, what?

462
00:18:00,847 --> 00:18:01,987
Like, what do you offer?

463
00:18:01,987 --> 00:18:03,157
Like, what are you comfortable with?

464
00:18:03,237 --> 00:18:05,217
And he said, well, I wanna
share my life with you.

465
00:18:05,217 --> 00:18:07,077
I want to like, you know, have
sex with you, but I also wanna

466
00:18:07,077 --> 00:18:10,407
be friends and I wanna be like,
love you and prepare my family.

467
00:18:11,157 --> 00:18:16,197
And I'm like that's a boyfriend to me, but
it's okay if you don't want that label.

468
00:18:16,827 --> 00:18:18,297
But I need a label.

469
00:18:18,567 --> 00:18:22,557
I need to know what to call you and
what to call me and what to call us.

470
00:18:22,677 --> 00:18:22,767
Yes.

471
00:18:23,247 --> 00:18:27,777
And at the time he's vegan, so
he had made me a vegan hamburger.

472
00:18:28,047 --> 00:18:28,377
Okay.

473
00:18:28,377 --> 00:18:28,497
And

474
00:18:28,497 --> 00:18:30,957
my other partner said it
was, it was a fake burger.

475
00:18:31,752 --> 00:18:33,462
So, uh, he spelled it wrong.

476
00:18:33,492 --> 00:18:35,352
It was like a bad hamburger or not bad.

477
00:18:35,352 --> 00:18:36,492
It was like a, like a er.

478
00:18:36,492 --> 00:18:37,092
It was really good.

479
00:18:37,752 --> 00:18:41,652
So I said, what if you are my amor
geso, which is like a burger in Spanish.

480
00:18:42,222 --> 00:18:44,772
And he is like, yeah, we can Betos.

481
00:18:45,072 --> 00:18:45,552
Let's do that.

482
00:18:45,552 --> 00:18:47,592
So we were not boyfriends.

483
00:18:48,492 --> 00:18:49,297
We were Borgs.

484
00:18:49,297 --> 00:18:49,307
Am

485
00:18:49,967 --> 00:18:50,257
Boto.

486
00:18:50,532 --> 00:18:50,892
Yes.

487
00:18:50,992 --> 00:18:53,812
Of course I said, however,
like to the outside world, we

488
00:18:53,812 --> 00:18:54,802
will probably say boyfriends.

489
00:18:54,802 --> 00:18:57,082
'cause it's like, it
saves us a lot of work.

490
00:18:57,172 --> 00:18:57,922
Explain it mostly.

491
00:18:57,922 --> 00:18:58,072
Yeah.

492
00:18:58,522 --> 00:18:59,542
But here's the thing.

493
00:19:00,592 --> 00:19:08,842
Boyfriend can be a, a mold in that if
there is a preset list of characteristics

494
00:19:08,842 --> 00:19:12,832
for a boyfriend, and I have to
make sure my relationship fits that

495
00:19:13,132 --> 00:19:16,402
and cut parts of that relationship
and our identity to fit that.

496
00:19:16,402 --> 00:19:16,972
That's a mold.

497
00:19:18,202 --> 00:19:20,092
A label is like a buffet.

498
00:19:20,842 --> 00:19:24,862
You get to a buffet, you see the shrimp
and you're like, oh, well this is shrimp.

499
00:19:24,862 --> 00:19:26,692
And you have like to,
you label what's in it.

500
00:19:26,692 --> 00:19:28,732
Like there's garlic and
there's lime and whatever.

501
00:19:29,302 --> 00:19:33,082
If they change the dish and they bring
out chicken and you are stubborn,

502
00:19:33,082 --> 00:19:34,132
and you're like, no, no, no, no.

503
00:19:34,462 --> 00:19:35,482
This says shrimp.

504
00:19:35,482 --> 00:19:39,502
You take a mold of shrimp and you
cut shrimp and it's not gonna work.

505
00:19:39,802 --> 00:19:42,232
You take the label and you rewrite it.

506
00:19:43,372 --> 00:19:46,567
So labels help us understand
what we're doing and what we

507
00:19:46,702 --> 00:19:48,172
want and what we're looking for.

508
00:19:48,502 --> 00:19:52,732
We have to understand that we write the
labels and we can rewrite the labels.

509
00:19:53,542 --> 00:19:57,592
If we find a mold that was preset, that
might not be great for some people.

510
00:19:57,892 --> 00:20:00,772
For some things are, for example,
you're saying, I'm a therapist.

511
00:20:00,982 --> 00:20:04,432
That's a label that helps, you
know what I do in general, right?

512
00:20:04,437 --> 00:20:04,637
Mm-hmm.

513
00:20:05,377 --> 00:20:09,842
If it's like, oh, but you are a, it's
a terrible sample, because I don't, I

514
00:20:09,992 --> 00:20:13,472
can't think of a mold for that, but you
know, you get the point, even, even in

515
00:20:13,472 --> 00:20:16,952
gender, like you're saying you're a woman
as a label, you have to look this way.

516
00:20:16,957 --> 00:20:17,147
Mm-hmm.

517
00:20:17,267 --> 00:20:17,307
Right.

518
00:20:18,557 --> 00:20:18,707
Right.

519
00:20:18,772 --> 00:20:20,777
As a as a, as a, as a label.

520
00:20:20,777 --> 00:20:21,127
It's a mold.

521
00:20:21,127 --> 00:20:21,337
Yes.

522
00:20:21,337 --> 00:20:21,667
As a label.

523
00:20:21,667 --> 00:20:22,837
You can make it whatever you want.

524
00:20:23,137 --> 00:20:23,347
Yeah.

525
00:20:23,347 --> 00:20:24,127
Poly hammer is the same.

526
00:20:24,127 --> 00:20:24,487
I am.

527
00:20:24,487 --> 00:20:25,327
I don't feel Polly.

528
00:20:25,447 --> 00:20:26,137
It doesn't fit me.

529
00:20:26,137 --> 00:20:26,857
It's like a sweater.

530
00:20:26,857 --> 00:20:27,787
It feels like it's too big.

531
00:20:28,147 --> 00:20:28,927
And that's what I say.

532
00:20:28,927 --> 00:20:30,037
I'm like, I, I know.

533
00:20:30,037 --> 00:20:32,647
I, I'm the one who eventually
called her a girlfriend, but I was

534
00:20:32,647 --> 00:20:33,967
like, it's, we're not Polly though.

535
00:20:33,967 --> 00:20:35,437
We're, we're just not a throuple.

536
00:20:35,467 --> 00:20:39,607
This is just a, she's just who she is and
what we do, and then it is what it is.

537
00:20:39,607 --> 00:20:41,467
But yeah, I like the little labels.

538
00:20:41,507 --> 00:20:42,467
It's helpful.

539
00:20:42,467 --> 00:20:43,997
Sometimes you can come with

540
00:20:44,062 --> 00:20:44,927
a new label for yourself.

541
00:20:45,197 --> 00:20:47,837
I just, I, I, I adapt
with whatever she says.

542
00:20:47,837 --> 00:20:47,987
There you

543
00:20:48,222 --> 00:20:48,342
go.

544
00:20:48,572 --> 00:20:49,277
He's just happy.

545
00:20:49,277 --> 00:20:51,677
We talk about it and I'm like,
okay, whatever you want, honey.

546
00:20:52,187 --> 00:20:55,607
That's, at this point, everything
you're saying is like, Adam, you're

547
00:20:55,607 --> 00:20:59,267
gonna think that the person, I just
like that you guys like this episode.

548
00:20:59,327 --> 00:21:01,607
I'm gonna agree with everything
you're saying to convince him.

549
00:21:02,147 --> 00:21:04,187
So, but it's not true.

550
00:21:04,187 --> 00:21:05,222
It's on the book.

551
00:21:05,812 --> 00:21:06,702
It's all written.

552
00:21:07,252 --> 00:21:08,222
I've said this before.

553
00:21:10,157 --> 00:21:14,237
How do you, um, how do you help couples
who feel guilty for wanting novelty

554
00:21:14,237 --> 00:21:16,517
or kink outside their partnership?

555
00:21:17,402 --> 00:21:18,482
It's very sweet.

556
00:21:18,812 --> 00:21:18,872
Yeah.

557
00:21:18,872 --> 00:21:19,712
It's heartbreaking.

558
00:21:20,102 --> 00:21:20,342
Yeah.

559
00:21:20,342 --> 00:21:20,522
I

560
00:21:20,522 --> 00:21:22,922
had to go through that at some
point, and one of the things

561
00:21:22,922 --> 00:21:27,452
that I found was my sex drive has
always been lower than my partners.

562
00:21:27,572 --> 00:21:27,752
Mm-hmm.

563
00:21:28,232 --> 00:21:30,782
And I've also felt guilty that
I can give them what they need.

564
00:21:31,112 --> 00:21:31,202
Mm-hmm.

565
00:21:31,202 --> 00:21:33,872
And I feel guilty that I'm jealous
that they wanna do with someone else.

566
00:21:34,322 --> 00:21:35,852
So it's like, I'm guilty anyway.

567
00:21:36,062 --> 00:21:36,422
Yeah.

568
00:21:36,907 --> 00:21:37,197
Yeah.

569
00:21:37,922 --> 00:21:43,862
So a big part of it is understanding one,
rejection is healthy, rejection is good.

570
00:21:44,682 --> 00:21:47,322
And rejecting something off you
doesn't mean I'm rejecting you.

571
00:21:48,462 --> 00:21:52,762
I was talking to one of my partners about
this the other day because he was, I

572
00:21:52,762 --> 00:21:56,582
don't know, he asked, but what if we're
at, at the beach with your other partner?

573
00:21:56,582 --> 00:21:57,302
Mm-hmm.

574
00:21:57,722 --> 00:21:59,852
And you say, and I tell you
I wanna do this with you.

575
00:21:59,852 --> 00:22:01,562
And you say, Hmm, I don't
wanna do it right now.

576
00:22:01,802 --> 00:22:03,902
Or I don't, I don't want, I, I don't
want to do, to do this with you.

577
00:22:04,472 --> 00:22:06,512
And then you go with your
partner and you do that with him.

578
00:22:06,962 --> 00:22:07,772
Why would you do that?

579
00:22:07,817 --> 00:22:07,877
Yeah,

580
00:22:08,537 --> 00:22:08,777
like

581
00:22:08,897 --> 00:22:09,707
I have the worst answer.

582
00:22:09,707 --> 00:22:12,857
You're not gonna like this answer,
but the answer is because I wanted

583
00:22:12,857 --> 00:22:15,497
to do it with him and not with you.

584
00:22:16,727 --> 00:22:19,967
And that doesn't mean you
are less or I don't love you.

585
00:22:19,967 --> 00:22:23,357
It my love for you doesn't
depend on me choosing you a

586
00:22:23,357 --> 00:22:24,917
hundred percent of the time.

587
00:22:25,817 --> 00:22:29,057
And hearing that is awful.

588
00:22:29,057 --> 00:22:31,277
And it's, it's, it's shocking.

589
00:22:31,457 --> 00:22:32,267
It is.

590
00:22:32,267 --> 00:22:34,277
I mean, I guess it's the way it's put.

591
00:22:34,337 --> 00:22:38,837
And as adults, I guess you can, so
like what we, he and I do is we do

592
00:22:38,837 --> 00:22:40,937
that where we're like, okay, I'm
gonna tell you something that's

593
00:22:40,937 --> 00:22:42,257
gonna be really uncomfortable.

594
00:22:42,407 --> 00:22:46,697
And it's always for me, 'cause I get
uncomfortable about everything, but

595
00:22:46,697 --> 00:22:48,317
I want him to tell me everything.

596
00:22:48,407 --> 00:22:49,367
And so, yeah.

597
00:22:49,457 --> 00:22:50,357
I totally get it.

598
00:22:50,357 --> 00:22:53,327
No, I, I don't, I think
I would be so crushed.

599
00:22:53,327 --> 00:22:53,687
Like,

600
00:22:53,957 --> 00:22:56,932
well, and, but the thing is the
more you build on this, uh, yeah.

601
00:22:56,932 --> 00:22:57,832
And it shouldn't hurt.

602
00:22:58,372 --> 00:22:59,122
Like my whole thing.

603
00:22:59,122 --> 00:23:01,102
My whole thing is if it
hurts, that's not it.

604
00:23:02,242 --> 00:23:02,752
Growth.

605
00:23:02,962 --> 00:23:03,322
Oh, I like that.

606
00:23:03,322 --> 00:23:04,882
Never happens through pain.

607
00:23:05,407 --> 00:23:05,887
It does not.

608
00:23:06,247 --> 00:23:07,507
Growth creates trauma.

609
00:23:07,507 --> 00:23:08,047
Uh, I'm sorry.

610
00:23:08,077 --> 00:23:09,097
Pain creates trauma.

611
00:23:09,097 --> 00:23:10,777
Pain creates suffering.

612
00:23:10,777 --> 00:23:13,267
Pain creates bad experiences.

613
00:23:13,927 --> 00:23:18,697
Growth happens being uncomfortable
in discomfort, in novelty.

614
00:23:19,597 --> 00:23:24,277
If I know that I'm doing something
new and I'm uncomfortable, there's

615
00:23:24,277 --> 00:23:27,607
a chance I might like it, might
dislike it, um, I might just get

616
00:23:27,607 --> 00:23:28,777
used to it and feel comfortable.

617
00:23:28,777 --> 00:23:31,087
And it can push more if it's hurting.

618
00:23:31,087 --> 00:23:32,047
It's like in sex.

619
00:23:32,527 --> 00:23:35,947
If you're doing something in sex
and it hurts, you don't go do

620
00:23:35,947 --> 00:23:37,417
it harder, so it stops hurting.

621
00:23:37,417 --> 00:23:38,077
You don't do that.

622
00:23:38,077 --> 00:23:41,527
You need to stop, leave it up,
change persistent positions.

623
00:23:41,527 --> 00:23:45,097
Accept you don't want that thing to go
in there and it's, it should move on.

624
00:23:45,547 --> 00:23:45,847
Yeah.

625
00:23:46,087 --> 00:23:47,437
In this case, it's the same.

626
00:23:47,947 --> 00:23:53,827
You know, like if, if this is
painful, you need to stop, pause,

627
00:23:54,697 --> 00:23:56,767
and then see what needs some lube.

628
00:23:57,637 --> 00:24:02,167
In this situation, for example,
if I'm not ready to accept that my

629
00:24:02,167 --> 00:24:05,077
partner can choose to do something
with someone else because they wanna

630
00:24:05,077 --> 00:24:06,307
do it with them and not with me.

631
00:24:06,307 --> 00:24:06,637
Mm-hmm.

632
00:24:06,907 --> 00:24:10,027
Maybe first I need to figure
that out with my partner.

633
00:24:10,027 --> 00:24:15,007
Create a sense of security and
safety that I don't need you to do

634
00:24:15,247 --> 00:24:17,647
everything with me to feel safe.

635
00:24:17,727 --> 00:24:19,947
And that's where couples get stuck a lot.

636
00:24:20,367 --> 00:24:23,727
'cause they'll try to make the
jump without knowing what makes

637
00:24:23,727 --> 00:24:25,287
them feel safe in the relationship.

638
00:24:26,037 --> 00:24:26,877
That makes sense.

639
00:24:27,177 --> 00:24:27,357
Yeah.

640
00:24:27,357 --> 00:24:28,017
That's where we went

641
00:24:28,017 --> 00:24:28,257
wrong.

642
00:24:28,857 --> 00:24:29,487
Are you recording?

643
00:24:29,967 --> 00:24:30,417
You're recording?

644
00:24:30,417 --> 00:24:30,687
We all,

645
00:24:30,807 --> 00:24:31,077
yeah.

646
00:24:31,137 --> 00:24:31,377
Okay.

647
00:24:31,557 --> 00:24:35,037
Yeah, no, that, that makes,
um, that makes a lot of sense.

648
00:24:35,787 --> 00:24:41,577
Yeah, no, I mean, um, we, so
you had mentioned to us kind

649
00:24:41,577 --> 00:24:42,807
of how you had gotten into it.

650
00:24:42,807 --> 00:24:45,957
It was very similar for
us in that we were, um.

651
00:24:47,157 --> 00:24:52,237
We were in the lifestyle and somebody
had actually told us it was this

652
00:24:52,237 --> 00:24:55,297
couple friend of ours, and they
had said, well, we're polyamorous.

653
00:24:55,837 --> 00:24:57,457
And I said, well, what's that?

654
00:24:58,477 --> 00:25:00,092
Tell me, tell me everything I gotta know.

655
00:25:00,187 --> 00:25:00,427
Run, run away.

656
00:25:00,427 --> 00:25:07,322
That's, and so send yourself they gave
me the, uh, the beautiful trailer of it,

657
00:25:07,322 --> 00:25:09,992
which is, oh, well, we get to date others.

658
00:25:10,742 --> 00:25:10,892
Oof.

659
00:25:11,252 --> 00:25:12,122
Outside of the marriage.

660
00:25:12,122 --> 00:25:13,412
And that's the way it was explained.

661
00:25:13,412 --> 00:25:13,442
A

662
00:25:13,742 --> 00:25:14,642
pyramid scheme.

663
00:25:14,642 --> 00:25:15,332
A pyramid scheme.

664
00:25:16,922 --> 00:25:16,942
Thank you.

665
00:25:16,942 --> 00:25:16,962
That's just,

666
00:25:17,072 --> 00:25:17,912
that's fraud.

667
00:25:19,112 --> 00:25:21,032
And so that's kind of
the way it was put to me.

668
00:25:21,032 --> 00:25:22,322
And I was like, oh, wow.

669
00:25:22,352 --> 00:25:24,992
Well, that sounds, that
sounds interesting, mm-hmm.

670
00:25:25,097 --> 00:25:28,487
And, uh, you know, I've always
been a very loving person.

671
00:25:28,907 --> 00:25:34,247
I love my friends, you know, um, before
we even considered this sort of thing,

672
00:25:34,247 --> 00:25:36,017
I was like, you know, I love my friends.

673
00:25:36,017 --> 00:25:37,427
Like I have love for everybody.

674
00:25:37,757 --> 00:25:39,552
And I don't know, I just.

675
00:25:40,662 --> 00:25:44,682
Makes sense, you know, because this is
the way I was when I was in high school.

676
00:25:44,682 --> 00:25:48,522
You know, this is like, that kind of
thinking is something's wrong with

677
00:25:48,522 --> 00:25:52,242
me because I'm in a relationship
and I'm looking at others and I'm

678
00:25:52,242 --> 00:25:53,742
lusting after others, you know?

679
00:25:54,252 --> 00:25:55,992
And, and I felt horrible about it.

680
00:25:56,112 --> 00:25:56,232
Mm-hmm.

681
00:25:56,682 --> 00:26:00,962
But I didn't know that non-monogamy
was what it was called, yeah.

682
00:26:01,047 --> 00:26:06,087
Um, and so this was expressed
to me about polyamory.

683
00:26:06,087 --> 00:26:11,517
And, and so we had talked about
it and I did my research for a

684
00:26:11,517 --> 00:26:13,987
good while as much as I could.

685
00:26:14,677 --> 00:26:16,057
And then I was like, you know what?

686
00:26:16,167 --> 00:26:17,247
Let's give it a shot.

687
00:26:17,427 --> 00:26:18,117
What the hell?

688
00:26:18,237 --> 00:26:18,627
And yeah.

689
00:26:18,627 --> 00:26:19,497
None of it went well.

690
00:26:20,462 --> 00:26:20,682
Oh,

691
00:26:21,687 --> 00:26:22,137
no, that's normal.

692
00:26:22,377 --> 00:26:23,637
But, but for obvious reasons.

693
00:26:23,637 --> 00:26:26,517
I mean, like, I, I don't, I
don't ever equate it to be a

694
00:26:26,517 --> 00:26:29,397
failure because we learned.

695
00:26:29,757 --> 00:26:30,837
So much from it.

696
00:26:30,897 --> 00:26:32,277
Yes, we did grow from it.

697
00:26:32,302 --> 00:26:33,087
So that's the, we

698
00:26:33,087 --> 00:26:34,117
grew a lot from it.

699
00:26:34,167 --> 00:26:38,132
And, uh, you know, we're still growing
every day even, a as it sits now

700
00:26:38,132 --> 00:26:44,532
because, uh, when we stopped being
poly, we just settled on the lifestyle.

701
00:26:44,902 --> 00:26:48,822
And then as the lifestyle went on, we
were able to you know, get more and more

702
00:26:48,822 --> 00:26:53,262
comfortable with doing separate things
and getting more comfortable with, you

703
00:26:53,262 --> 00:26:56,322
know, I have a friends with benefits
that I see, or whatever, you know,

704
00:26:56,322 --> 00:27:01,412
and, and now we're here, you know, so
every day is a kind of a growth period.

705
00:27:01,682 --> 00:27:01,982
Yeah.

706
00:27:02,012 --> 00:27:08,012
But you know, as, as I'm getting into
that, we have teetered, tottered,

707
00:27:08,132 --> 00:27:13,682
the swinging polyamory line, and
in our community we see that often.

708
00:27:13,682 --> 00:27:14,822
We're seeing it more now.

709
00:27:14,882 --> 00:27:15,182
Yeah.

710
00:27:15,467 --> 00:27:15,757
Yeah.

711
00:27:15,762 --> 00:27:20,642
Um, do you see swinging in polyamory
as part of the same relational,

712
00:27:20,792 --> 00:27:23,102
uh, relational ethics conversation?

713
00:27:23,502 --> 00:27:25,332
Or do they kind of require the.

714
00:27:25,887 --> 00:27:28,347
Different tools for
consent and communication.

715
00:27:28,347 --> 00:27:29,367
Like, are they aligned?

716
00:27:29,367 --> 00:27:31,617
Are they relatively different?

717
00:27:32,277 --> 00:27:35,667
It feels like when you talk about
autistic people and sters and

718
00:27:35,667 --> 00:27:38,577
polyamorous people and nom know, it's
just like, there's no Venn diagram.

719
00:27:38,577 --> 00:27:39,447
It's just a big circle.

720
00:27:39,837 --> 00:27:42,147
Like people just label each
other differently sometimes.

721
00:27:42,527 --> 00:27:46,157
I know that swinging started
off being very sexist.

722
00:27:46,187 --> 00:27:49,637
Like it was very much like, I'm lending
you my wife, so you can lend me yours.

723
00:27:49,817 --> 00:27:50,117
Right?

724
00:27:50,147 --> 00:27:52,637
Um, but it was that very beginning
of the whole movement, right?

725
00:27:52,637 --> 00:27:52,727
Mm-hmm.

726
00:27:53,092 --> 00:27:56,287
From what I understand now,
it's more, it's become more like

727
00:27:56,287 --> 00:28:01,417
a not as hierarchical notice
as, uh, as gender focused.

728
00:28:01,417 --> 00:28:01,556
So,

729
00:28:02,446 --> 00:28:05,011
again, to me, that's the beauty of labels.

730
00:28:05,791 --> 00:28:10,021
If you wanna call it swingers and
that works for you, go for it.

731
00:28:10,711 --> 00:28:10,801
Mm-hmm.

732
00:28:10,801 --> 00:28:10,951
Right.

733
00:28:10,951 --> 00:28:14,281
If you wanna call it polyamorous
and that works for you, let's do it.

734
00:28:14,671 --> 00:28:17,911
Just sit down and talk to the
person in front of you and say, Hey.

735
00:28:18,451 --> 00:28:20,161
I think this is what I'm talking about.

736
00:28:20,371 --> 00:28:23,501
I have certain people come to me and
be like I wanna open our relationship.

737
00:28:23,501 --> 00:28:26,921
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna ask
you two to write down like

738
00:28:27,191 --> 00:28:28,691
separately what that means.

739
00:28:28,771 --> 00:28:30,991
I, one of them be like, well
I wanna have a boyfriend.

740
00:28:31,171 --> 00:28:32,461
You was like, I wanna have hookups.

741
00:28:32,491 --> 00:28:33,901
I'm like, they're not the same thing.

742
00:28:34,351 --> 00:28:36,241
So you need to talk to each other.

743
00:28:36,871 --> 00:28:41,041
Uh, the thing about swinging from what,
like, there's more of a community.

744
00:28:41,311 --> 00:28:44,581
Like there's no community for
like open relationships per se.

745
00:28:44,821 --> 00:28:44,911
Mm-hmm.

746
00:28:45,151 --> 00:28:45,271
Right?

747
00:28:45,271 --> 00:28:48,841
So, and polyamory is a
different community, right?

748
00:28:49,021 --> 00:28:52,141
So I think it's more about
how to relate to each other.

749
00:28:52,841 --> 00:28:54,461
Are you trying to make.

750
00:28:54,536 --> 00:28:57,656
A molecule to play board games.

751
00:28:57,746 --> 00:28:59,396
'cause that's all polyamorous about.

752
00:28:59,546 --> 00:29:01,916
I just wanna find enough people
to play board games every night.

753
00:29:02,426 --> 00:29:04,946
Or used just fingers because
you wanna have a happy dog

754
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,906
because you wanna do the same thing,
but without clothes all the time.

755
00:29:09,906 --> 00:29:10,056
I mean, I think

756
00:29:10,056 --> 00:29:14,016
that's the other thing, not you just
said that I think maybe polyamory

757
00:29:14,016 --> 00:29:17,436
to me is not, it's not central.

758
00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:18,126
Central.

759
00:29:18,126 --> 00:29:20,316
It's like, it's not sex centralized.

760
00:29:20,346 --> 00:29:22,086
I was just gonna ask you
a question about that.

761
00:29:22,086 --> 00:29:23,496
Yeah, yeah.

762
00:29:23,496 --> 00:29:27,126
Like many swingers say that it, many
swingers say that it's just sex.

763
00:29:27,126 --> 00:29:29,796
Like if there's no feelings,
it's like, that's all.

764
00:29:29,826 --> 00:29:32,106
It's just, just, and
that's the way, honestly.

765
00:29:33,066 --> 00:29:35,676
Yeah, that's the way I
think it's, it's swinging.

766
00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:35,736
Yeah.

767
00:29:35,736 --> 00:29:36,486
It's just sex.

768
00:29:36,486 --> 00:29:38,046
Like he's just gonna go
have sex with somebody.

769
00:29:38,046 --> 00:29:40,266
It's like, like it's not
gonna fall in love with them.

770
00:29:40,746 --> 00:29:43,566
And I feel like when it was Polly
and we labeled it that, that,

771
00:29:43,566 --> 00:29:45,036
that's exactly what I thought.

772
00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:47,656
So, and I always thought there
are two different things because.

773
00:29:48,921 --> 00:29:50,571
Paul isn't a lot of sex.

774
00:29:50,571 --> 00:29:50,871
Right?

775
00:29:50,871 --> 00:29:53,451
It's more, oh, it's a
lot of talking about sex.

776
00:29:53,451 --> 00:29:53,631
Yes.

777
00:29:55,056 --> 00:29:55,976
I mean, it's a, it's

778
00:29:55,976 --> 00:29:57,016
a lot of talking Helo.

779
00:29:57,016 --> 00:29:57,336
Swingers.

780
00:29:58,071 --> 00:29:58,231
It's a lot of talking.

781
00:29:58,231 --> 00:29:59,001
If you have a bed, we're good.

782
00:29:59,001 --> 00:29:59,301
We're there.

783
00:29:59,391 --> 00:29:59,481
Well,

784
00:30:01,371 --> 00:30:03,681
I mean, again, it comes, it depends
on, I was thinking about swingers.

785
00:30:03,681 --> 00:30:06,951
'cause like I read and I've heard
it's more like a community space now.

786
00:30:06,951 --> 00:30:08,911
And they actually they do get together.

787
00:30:08,911 --> 00:30:10,621
They do make friendships,
they do make relationships.

788
00:30:10,621 --> 00:30:13,201
But yes, stringing is more sex focused.

789
00:30:13,231 --> 00:30:13,531
Okay.

790
00:30:13,831 --> 00:30:14,041
Yeah.

791
00:30:14,101 --> 00:30:16,111
Polyamory does not require sex.

792
00:30:16,111 --> 00:30:20,851
And when I define polyamory, I'm always
very careful saying like it's romantic.

793
00:30:21,331 --> 00:30:26,101
Like simultaneous romantic relationships
where everybody involved is aware,

794
00:30:27,031 --> 00:30:28,681
but they don't need to have sex.

795
00:30:29,341 --> 00:30:30,451
There's ace people, right?

796
00:30:30,601 --> 00:30:32,191
Asexual people can enjoy polyamory.

797
00:30:32,191 --> 00:30:33,811
It's a great option for asexual people.

798
00:30:34,111 --> 00:30:35,611
A romantic people can also do that.

799
00:30:35,911 --> 00:30:38,101
So it's more how you wanna
build a relationship.

800
00:30:38,821 --> 00:30:39,811
I like that.

801
00:30:40,081 --> 00:30:43,171
See, you should have given me his
book before we started doing poll

802
00:30:43,171 --> 00:30:44,341
and I probably would've been like, oh

803
00:30:45,456 --> 00:30:45,676
no.

804
00:30:45,681 --> 00:30:48,691
Well, yeah, but you, it takes
you while I was, I was messing

805
00:30:48,691 --> 00:30:49,501
up right there with you.

806
00:30:51,091 --> 00:30:52,291
The same experience at the time.

807
00:30:53,131 --> 00:30:55,676
I, I got chapter eight and
I'm like, oh yeah, I know.

808
00:30:57,036 --> 00:30:57,556
I feel you.

809
00:30:58,466 --> 00:30:58,756
Yeah.

810
00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:00,871
I found it on Audible, so I was excited.

811
00:31:01,111 --> 00:31:02,316
Yeah, yeah.

812
00:31:04,501 --> 00:31:08,221
Now you've written about autonomy
and consent and relationships.

813
00:31:08,521 --> 00:31:08,611
Yes.

814
00:31:08,611 --> 00:31:12,541
How does that apply in sexual encounters
with multiple people, like group play,

815
00:31:12,751 --> 00:31:15,151
threesomes, play parties, you know?

816
00:31:15,901 --> 00:31:16,681
Well, yes.

817
00:31:16,711 --> 00:31:19,351
Uh, to me, I'm a kinger.

818
00:31:19,411 --> 00:31:20,131
I'm happy to be a kinger.

819
00:31:20,611 --> 00:31:21,541
I'm not looking back.

820
00:31:22,051 --> 00:31:22,951
I'm autistic.

821
00:31:23,101 --> 00:31:24,316
I'm happy to be autistic.

822
00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:28,831
Like all these things to me are
like just so great, except I'm in a

823
00:31:28,831 --> 00:31:31,891
community where we talk about everything
and really has to be consensual.

824
00:31:32,491 --> 00:31:36,631
And that also means that I am not
brave to my instincts and feelings.

825
00:31:37,471 --> 00:31:40,411
So I can actually not eat the marshmallow.

826
00:31:40,561 --> 00:31:42,841
There's there, I don't know if you
noticed, this is like a marshmallow test

827
00:31:43,231 --> 00:31:46,351
where they had children sit in a room
with a marshmallow in front of them and

828
00:31:46,351 --> 00:31:49,591
they were like, if you can wait for an
hour or something, uh, I'll give you two

829
00:31:49,591 --> 00:31:51,511
marshmallows, but you cannot eat that one.

830
00:31:52,591 --> 00:31:56,491
So it was tech like how like
these children had this ability to

831
00:31:56,491 --> 00:31:59,821
postpone ratification and some of
them will actually eat the marsh.

832
00:31:59,851 --> 00:32:02,461
Someone would wait for the al. So
it's like you have to fight, be

833
00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:07,261
like against the, do I want the
pleasure now or more pleasure later?

834
00:32:08,401 --> 00:32:12,571
So to me that's like the marshal
test for non-monogamous people is

835
00:32:13,411 --> 00:32:16,711
yes, you have the person you wanna
have sex with in front of you.

836
00:32:17,101 --> 00:32:21,361
And yes, there's an agreement with your
partner, you know, would be iffy here,

837
00:32:22,411 --> 00:32:26,761
are you going to eat the marshmallow now
or do you want two marshmallows later?

838
00:32:29,191 --> 00:32:31,531
And of course the fear is,
but this one's gonna go away.

839
00:32:31,771 --> 00:32:32,141
Yes, but.

840
00:32:32,761 --> 00:32:33,511
It's a marshmallow.

841
00:32:33,691 --> 00:32:34,561
You'll find another one.

842
00:32:34,801 --> 00:32:35,491
Let it go.

843
00:32:35,731 --> 00:32:36,956
Another all your life doesn't exist.

844
00:32:38,011 --> 00:32:38,521
Never.

845
00:32:38,521 --> 00:32:38,941
And consider

846
00:32:40,111 --> 00:32:42,631
and considering group play and stuff,
one of the things that I've found

847
00:32:43,831 --> 00:32:46,531
is just it, I, I don't know, like
sex is such a greatest topic and

848
00:32:46,531 --> 00:32:48,991
I can't talk about that a lot on
Instagram 'cause I get, you know Yeah.

849
00:32:49,021 --> 00:32:49,231
Right.

850
00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:51,626
Algorithms and I can't, it's an
open it can we, apparently you

851
00:32:51,626 --> 00:32:51,746
can.

852
00:32:51,746 --> 00:32:51,986
Yeah.

853
00:32:52,446 --> 00:32:54,061
You just talk about it here all you want.

854
00:32:55,531 --> 00:32:58,351
And one of the things that people
say is like, what if my partner does

855
00:32:58,351 --> 00:32:59,461
something that I'm not comfortable?

856
00:32:59,881 --> 00:33:01,021
I'm like, that's great.

857
00:33:01,391 --> 00:33:07,121
That's, it's don't, it's a great time to
explore and experiment and be like, Hey,

858
00:33:07,331 --> 00:33:10,031
the first time I did it, I, I told my
partner, I don't want you to kiss anybody.

859
00:33:10,031 --> 00:33:11,536
I can't stand it.

860
00:33:11,766 --> 00:33:12,906
Like you can have I can't stand it.

861
00:33:12,911 --> 00:33:17,911
Take a be dip inside you and put their
fists in your ear, but don't kiss them.

862
00:33:18,121 --> 00:33:18,391
Yes.

863
00:33:18,571 --> 00:33:21,601
And the first time that he came
over was like, well, I wanted

864
00:33:21,601 --> 00:33:22,411
to kiss him, but I didn't.

865
00:33:22,981 --> 00:33:25,801
To me it was one, I have evidence
that you actually care about this

866
00:33:25,861 --> 00:33:28,531
disagreement and you want to meet
it and you care about me too.

867
00:33:29,221 --> 00:33:29,626
When he said.

868
00:33:30,421 --> 00:33:35,746
But I really want to, I also had this
experience of we are in a safe space

869
00:33:35,746 --> 00:33:39,436
for you to express your needs and
to have a conversation about them.

870
00:33:39,736 --> 00:33:40,906
And then I was like, okay, that's nice.

871
00:33:40,906 --> 00:33:44,336
And then I said, okay I'm willing
to experiment once and then we can

872
00:33:44,336 --> 00:33:46,586
check again another experience.

873
00:33:46,586 --> 00:33:51,626
Where is this, this is a great,
like, safety building exercise.

874
00:33:51,706 --> 00:33:55,876
And then he went over, he kissed someone
and he came back to check how I felt.

875
00:33:56,746 --> 00:34:02,926
And I said, I've never felt this
angry and jealous with you, ever.

876
00:34:03,796 --> 00:34:05,086
I need you to go do it again.

877
00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:06,166
It's amazing.

878
00:34:06,736 --> 00:34:07,576
I love it.

879
00:34:07,666 --> 00:34:12,316
This like, I, I don't even know how to
explain how this energy has changed.

880
00:34:12,316 --> 00:34:12,346
I,

881
00:34:12,406 --> 00:34:12,736
yeah.

882
00:34:12,736 --> 00:34:15,826
I always said that like the butterflies
in the stomach that uncomfortable

883
00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:19,546
feeling like, oh my god, I could
really get upset about this.

884
00:34:19,846 --> 00:34:20,776
But I like it.

885
00:34:21,616 --> 00:34:22,576
It's a rollercoaster.

886
00:34:22,581 --> 00:34:22,931
Yeah, it is.

887
00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:23,476
So

888
00:34:25,126 --> 00:34:27,076
being on a rollercoaster is your brain.

889
00:34:27,106 --> 00:34:27,856
You're gonna die.

890
00:34:28,591 --> 00:34:30,361
Your brain's like, oh, I'm gonna attack.

891
00:34:30,631 --> 00:34:33,241
But in a safe space, you're
gonna enjoy a rollercoaster.

892
00:34:33,246 --> 00:34:36,571
If you're not safe, if you are
falling off a car off a cliff,

893
00:34:37,081 --> 00:34:38,311
you would not enjoy that.

894
00:34:39,031 --> 00:34:44,011
And it's the exact same experience with
the exact same chemical reactions, but in

895
00:34:44,011 --> 00:34:45,661
the rollercoaster, you know, you're safe.

896
00:34:45,661 --> 00:34:49,201
It is the same thing if I'm seeing my,
my partner being someone else, but I feel

897
00:34:49,201 --> 00:34:51,991
safe, I feel important, I feel chosen.

898
00:34:51,991 --> 00:34:56,551
I feel like I have agency in the whole
thing, and I can take care of myself.

899
00:34:57,181 --> 00:34:59,581
I can enjoy the moment and
then say, you know what?

900
00:34:59,581 --> 00:35:03,001
This wasn't for me, but our
connection is not broken.

901
00:35:03,421 --> 00:35:03,901
Yeah.

902
00:35:04,771 --> 00:35:07,831
It's hard for me, but yes,
it's, it's, it's really

903
00:35:07,951 --> 00:35:08,101
it.

904
00:35:08,101 --> 00:35:08,941
It takes time.

905
00:35:09,121 --> 00:35:09,811
It takes time.

906
00:35:10,141 --> 00:35:10,381
Yeah.

907
00:35:10,381 --> 00:35:10,391
Yeah.

908
00:35:10,391 --> 00:35:10,536
Um.

909
00:35:10,906 --> 00:35:14,171
And Yeah, it's just,
it's, it's, it's, yeah.

910
00:35:14,221 --> 00:35:14,811
Trial lawyer,

911
00:35:15,601 --> 00:35:18,946
it's, I mean, I am getting
a little better, so, oh,

912
00:35:18,946 --> 00:35:19,246
yeah.

913
00:35:19,306 --> 00:35:22,486
No, she's, she's come
an amazingly long way.

914
00:35:22,606 --> 00:35:23,716
Like she's done great.

915
00:35:23,866 --> 00:35:24,016
Yeah.

916
00:35:24,146 --> 00:35:24,861
And Well, good for you.

917
00:35:25,226 --> 00:35:28,016
She's always said that I've been
six steps ahead of her in all of

918
00:35:28,016 --> 00:35:31,386
this, you know, 'cause I've never
really, I, I don't get jealous.

919
00:35:31,386 --> 00:35:32,526
You know, I've, I've never really

920
00:35:32,946 --> 00:35:34,926
thought, oh, oh, if somebody
makes me laugh, forget it.

921
00:35:34,926 --> 00:35:35,376
Forget it.

922
00:35:35,436 --> 00:35:35,646
Yeah.

923
00:35:35,646 --> 00:35:35,946
No,

924
00:35:36,216 --> 00:35:37,326
but she's gotta stay away.

925
00:35:37,326 --> 00:35:38,891
But if she's jealous,
and that gets me bad.

926
00:35:39,251 --> 00:35:42,156
'cause I'm like, I want you, I feel
like jealousy sometimes is very hot.

927
00:35:42,156 --> 00:35:45,006
It's like, oh yeah, you,
you don't wanna lose me.

928
00:35:45,006 --> 00:35:45,426
Right.

929
00:35:45,426 --> 00:35:47,136
I'm always jealous about,

930
00:35:47,136 --> 00:35:49,236
I mean, obviously I don't
want to lose you but my

931
00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:49,836
children.

932
00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:50,856
So it's like, I mean,

933
00:35:50,856 --> 00:35:52,416
I want you to enjoy.

934
00:35:52,446 --> 00:35:52,716
Yeah.

935
00:35:52,721 --> 00:35:53,211
I'm getting there.

936
00:35:53,211 --> 00:35:55,656
Happy I'm getting there,
you know, at some point.

937
00:35:56,676 --> 00:35:57,216
I love it.

938
00:35:57,366 --> 00:35:57,966
I love it.

939
00:35:57,996 --> 00:35:59,916
You know, being married is so fun.

940
00:36:00,006 --> 00:36:01,596
'cause we have lots of labels too.

941
00:36:02,226 --> 00:36:03,186
Yes, of course.

942
00:36:03,186 --> 00:36:06,096
Labels are great, but, but my
labels are very, they're, they're

943
00:36:06,096 --> 00:36:07,056
a lot of four letter words.

944
00:36:07,116 --> 00:36:07,506
Yes.

945
00:36:09,896 --> 00:36:11,456
Uh, let's see here.

946
00:36:11,756 --> 00:36:12,206
Which one?

947
00:36:12,206 --> 00:36:13,201
Let's do the, that one.

948
00:36:13,436 --> 00:36:13,916
Okay.

949
00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:14,186
Yeah.

950
00:36:14,306 --> 00:36:14,756
Okay.

951
00:36:15,416 --> 00:36:15,626
Yeah.

952
00:36:15,686 --> 00:36:16,286
You wanna go ahead?

953
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:16,916
I do.

954
00:36:16,976 --> 00:36:17,396
Okay.

955
00:36:17,396 --> 00:36:17,606
Help.

956
00:36:18,086 --> 00:36:22,766
So do you think jealousy and arousal
can actually exist side by side?

957
00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:25,586
Like being turned on by your
partner's Pleasure, but also

958
00:36:25,586 --> 00:36:26,726
feeling threatened by it.

959
00:36:26,876 --> 00:36:28,646
So like, we just went
over something like that.

960
00:36:28,646 --> 00:36:29,036
So,

961
00:36:29,036 --> 00:36:31,676
of course it's, it's, it's a, it's
a really Christmas horror movie.

962
00:36:31,681 --> 00:36:37,496
It's, it's understanding that
jealousy is a feeling like, like

963
00:36:37,496 --> 00:36:38,846
anger, like happiness, yeah.

964
00:36:38,846 --> 00:36:42,741
Like sadness and all the all
emotions have a function.

965
00:36:42,951 --> 00:36:46,461
The issues when we mislabel
them and we say, no, they are

966
00:36:46,461 --> 00:36:47,841
toxic, they're mean, they're bad.

967
00:36:48,111 --> 00:36:50,271
And the only way we understand
jealousy, it's like when

968
00:36:50,271 --> 00:36:51,711
people say, I'm not jealous.

969
00:36:52,086 --> 00:36:55,686
I always feel like they're
saying, I don't feel what I'm

970
00:36:55,686 --> 00:36:57,426
supposed to feel when I'm jealous.

971
00:36:57,431 --> 00:36:57,951
There you go.

972
00:36:58,461 --> 00:36:58,751
Yeah.

973
00:36:58,751 --> 00:36:58,951
And

974
00:36:59,021 --> 00:37:03,426
it's more because I, I I, you
have felt insecure at some point.

975
00:37:03,426 --> 00:37:06,966
You have felt afraid at some point,
but I, there's feelings you've had,

976
00:37:06,966 --> 00:37:10,476
they just don't look like jealousy
because you don't label them jealousy.

977
00:37:10,716 --> 00:37:10,986
Yeah.

978
00:37:11,096 --> 00:37:19,836
Jealousy is either fear, sadness, or
anger behind an idea of this is not a

979
00:37:19,836 --> 00:37:25,146
safe space for me to communicate it,
and it's a threat to my relationship.

980
00:37:26,106 --> 00:37:26,766
That's jealousy.

981
00:37:26,766 --> 00:37:29,586
So basically what it's
telling you is I need safety.

982
00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:34,596
But if I don't know how to express it,
it's going to yell at me and be a problem.

983
00:37:34,926 --> 00:37:35,166
Yeah.

984
00:37:35,436 --> 00:37:42,001
Now arousal is energy, it's aggression
it needs this, it's like attack movement.

985
00:37:42,111 --> 00:37:45,771
So anger and jealousy can be very
close together, especially when there's

986
00:37:45,771 --> 00:37:47,331
no safe space for me to communicate.

987
00:37:47,481 --> 00:37:53,181
Mm. But if I do, then I connect
with happiness, which has energy

988
00:37:53,181 --> 00:37:55,041
with affection, which is connection.

989
00:37:55,581 --> 00:37:59,841
And then instead of fear,
security, I feel safe.

990
00:37:59,871 --> 00:38:00,801
I feel secure.

991
00:38:01,101 --> 00:38:04,911
And then this jealousy becomes this
desire for the other person that is

992
00:38:04,911 --> 00:38:08,541
like, yes, I belong with that person.

993
00:38:08,691 --> 00:38:11,316
Not to that person, with that person.

994
00:38:11,961 --> 00:38:13,671
And I'm enjoying this moment.

995
00:38:14,721 --> 00:38:15,651
I like that.

996
00:38:15,651 --> 00:38:16,941
That was well put.

997
00:38:17,241 --> 00:38:19,041
Hey, man, I could listen
to you talk all day.

998
00:38:19,131 --> 00:38:22,261
Like, that was, that was
really like, I was zoned out.

999
00:38:22,261 --> 00:38:23,611
I was like, wait, where are we now?

1000
00:38:23,676 --> 00:38:24,886
That was really good.

1001
00:38:24,996 --> 00:38:28,721
Yeah, that's, but, you know, getting
into it, uh, we've been talking

1002
00:38:28,721 --> 00:38:32,541
for a little bit now and, and
I'm curious I have not heard you

1003
00:38:32,751 --> 00:38:34,701
refer to the word compersion yet.

1004
00:38:35,001 --> 00:38:39,361
I know that compersion I
think it has its roots in, in.

1005
00:38:39,751 --> 00:38:41,191
Polyamory, doesn't it?

1006
00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:41,491
It does.

1007
00:38:41,581 --> 00:38:44,551
It comes with polyamory and, and now
we're, we're starting to see it more

1008
00:38:44,551 --> 00:38:47,881
in the, uh, in the lifestyle as well.

1009
00:38:48,171 --> 00:38:50,761
And I've heard it in different aspects.

1010
00:38:51,481 --> 00:38:57,961
What is compersion and you know,
how, how, what kind of tools

1011
00:38:58,561 --> 00:39:00,571
could you give to a, a client?

1012
00:39:00,571 --> 00:39:04,201
I guess that, that goes
from jealousy to compersion.

1013
00:39:05,671 --> 00:39:07,531
Compersion is the rainbow.

1014
00:39:08,311 --> 00:39:11,491
The more you chase it, the more
it's gonna go farther from you.

1015
00:39:11,491 --> 00:39:12,451
You're never gonna get it.

1016
00:39:12,451 --> 00:39:13,321
You're never gonna catch it.

1017
00:39:14,161 --> 00:39:16,621
Compersion people could think of,
compersion is the opposite of jealousy.

1018
00:39:16,621 --> 00:39:17,041
It is not.

1019
00:39:17,371 --> 00:39:23,851
Compassion is the, when I enjoy seeing
my partner, having a romantic moment with

1020
00:39:23,851 --> 00:39:26,401
another partner, not sexual, romantic.

1021
00:39:26,401 --> 00:39:32,131
Like when I see them sharing a,
a loving moment of romance and

1022
00:39:32,131 --> 00:39:34,981
I feel joy, that's compression.

1023
00:39:35,746 --> 00:39:38,776
First time I felt that I was, uh,
with this first person we had and

1024
00:39:38,776 --> 00:39:40,216
my partner at the time, I saw them.

1025
00:39:40,216 --> 00:39:42,796
Like they were holding each other
and they were looking at each

1026
00:39:42,796 --> 00:39:44,806
other and there was so much love.

1027
00:39:45,496 --> 00:39:46,846
They were so happy.

1028
00:39:47,476 --> 00:39:53,416
And I was like, I love those two
men, and they're so happy and

1029
00:39:53,416 --> 00:39:55,306
they're making each other so happy.

1030
00:39:55,756 --> 00:39:55,816
Yeah.

1031
00:39:55,821 --> 00:39:59,266
And I felt this like energy in
my body and like this warmth in

1032
00:39:59,266 --> 00:40:00,976
my heart, and it was so great.

1033
00:40:01,426 --> 00:40:02,926
And then at the same time
I was like, but they're not

1034
00:40:02,926 --> 00:40:03,526
unhappy with me.

1035
00:40:04,966 --> 00:40:05,751
They're not looking at me.

1036
00:40:06,466 --> 00:40:09,946
And that's the other thing, jealousy
and compression can coexist.

1037
00:40:09,946 --> 00:40:12,346
'cause they're, they're more
than, you can have more than one

1038
00:40:12,346 --> 00:40:13,786
feeling look actually inside out.

1039
00:40:14,296 --> 00:40:17,536
Um, I don't use that word a lot because
people use that as, as a weapon.

1040
00:40:17,836 --> 00:40:20,086
They'll say, oh, you know,
you're not good at polyamorous.

1041
00:40:20,086 --> 00:40:20,806
You don't feel compassion.

1042
00:40:20,836 --> 00:40:21,706
Oh, you feel jealousy.

1043
00:40:21,706 --> 00:40:21,826
No.

1044
00:40:21,826 --> 00:40:22,546
You should feel compassion.

1045
00:40:22,846 --> 00:40:23,086
No.

1046
00:40:23,086 --> 00:40:27,136
Compression is something that you can
feel but you don't need for polyamory.

1047
00:40:27,406 --> 00:40:30,046
Like, as long as I feel at peace,
like right now, I'm fine with my

1048
00:40:30,046 --> 00:40:31,366
partners being with other partners.

1049
00:40:31,396 --> 00:40:32,726
I don't like, it's fine.

1050
00:40:33,056 --> 00:40:34,016
I like that they're happy.

1051
00:40:34,196 --> 00:40:34,736
It makes me happy.

1052
00:40:34,736 --> 00:40:35,156
They're happy.

1053
00:40:35,376 --> 00:40:36,720
Do I feel compassion all the time?

1054
00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:38,130
No, but I don't need it.

1055
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,640
Again, don't insert the tool is
not the opposite of jealousy.

1056
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,565
And if you don't feel it, you're
not that, that polyamorous person.

1057
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:45,690
Yeah.

1058
00:40:45,870 --> 00:40:46,110
Yeah.

1059
00:40:46,110 --> 00:40:50,040
And you know, I find that people
really villainize jealousy.

1060
00:40:50,580 --> 00:40:50,820
Yeah.

1061
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:54,930
Do you know jealousy is so bad, and if
you feel jealousy, you're a horrible,

1062
00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:59,070
horrible person and you can't be in this
lifestyle, or you can't be in this Yeah.

1063
00:40:59,430 --> 00:41:00,840
This kind of way of life.

1064
00:41:00,930 --> 00:41:03,900
When I tell somebody that I'm a jealous
person, they're, they always give

1065
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:07,710
me, especially women, they gimme that
look like, oh, just the way I am.

1066
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:07,720
Yeah.

1067
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:09,870
I'm just a, I am, I'm a jealous person.

1068
00:41:09,870 --> 00:41:10,890
I've always been like that.

1069
00:41:10,895 --> 00:41:10,925
Yeah.

1070
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:11,370
Yeah.

1071
00:41:11,370 --> 00:41:13,890
And you know, we've, it
didn't stop anything.

1072
00:41:13,890 --> 00:41:14,700
You know, it's just,

1073
00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:16,725
Here's the secret that I tell my clients.

1074
00:41:17,265 --> 00:41:21,765
Whenever you wanna work through jealousy
or with jealousy, substitute word

1075
00:41:21,765 --> 00:41:27,825
jealousy with anger, fear, or sadness,
magic, suddenly there's no stigma.

1076
00:41:27,825 --> 00:41:29,235
Suddenly it's valid.

1077
00:41:29,235 --> 00:41:32,115
Suddenly you can work with
it because jealousy, the

1078
00:41:32,115 --> 00:41:35,595
label is very ined with thin.

1079
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:35,760
Mm-hmm.

1080
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:36,480
Yeah.

1081
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:37,240
Yeah.

1082
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:38,940
That's for sure.

1083
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:39,900
Love

1084
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:40,110
it.

1085
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,290
So are there, are there
predictable dynamics?

1086
00:41:43,290 --> 00:41:47,070
Like who takes the lead or who
hangs back or who gets overwhelmed

1087
00:41:47,070 --> 00:41:50,430
that you see across with your,
your clients, like their stories?

1088
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:55,390
Does, like when we were Polly, I,
I would actually dis disconnect

1089
00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:57,100
myself and kind of stay back.

1090
00:41:57,490 --> 00:41:58,120
I wouldn't

1091
00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:58,755
like, engage.

1092
00:41:58,785 --> 00:41:59,075
Yeah.

1093
00:41:59,210 --> 00:42:03,580
And that, that was an issue for me
because, you know, she would, she

1094
00:42:03,580 --> 00:42:10,060
would kind of push me towards them and
she would remove herself and it just

1095
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:12,910
got very awkward and uncomfortable.

1096
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:14,080
Yeah.

1097
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:14,090
Yeah.

1098
00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:16,780
You know, so like, do you see that a lot?

1099
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:17,950
Yes.

1100
00:42:17,950 --> 00:42:19,600
There's, there there's trends.

1101
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:19,930
Yeah,

1102
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,050
There's things that I'm like, sometimes
I'll see clients send me a little like

1103
00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:25,670
blurb of they, what they wanna talk about.

1104
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:26,390
I will.

1105
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:29,390
So reading, I'm like, oh
yeah, no, I know this story.

1106
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:30,260
I know where this is gonna go.

1107
00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:30,710
You're fine.

1108
00:42:31,355 --> 00:42:35,345
It's, it's, and it's not that everybody's
the same, but we do follow patterns.

1109
00:42:35,345 --> 00:42:38,370
Mm. One of the patterns is one
of the partners is very excited

1110
00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:41,370
about Dommy and the other one
is very not excited about Dommy.

1111
00:42:41,465 --> 00:42:41,755
Yeah.

1112
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,280
And the one's very excited
is like, it's so easy.

1113
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,990
I'll do anything, whatever
you want, but do it now.

1114
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,710
Mm. And the other one will be
like, but I don't really wanna

1115
00:42:49,710 --> 00:42:50,910
do it, but I'll do it for you.

1116
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,160
But I'll resent you the entire time.

1117
00:42:53,185 --> 00:42:53,475
Yeah.

1118
00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:57,090
And I'll put like a stop now, make
it difficult and I'll do obstacles

1119
00:42:57,420 --> 00:42:58,950
and then I'll make you feel guilty.

1120
00:42:58,950 --> 00:43:00,780
But then I feel D make you feel guilty.

1121
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,180
And the other one will
feel guilty of being happy.

1122
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:06,450
So they'll try to force the other
person to also be like, open.

1123
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:07,440
So you'll be like, I met someone.

1124
00:43:07,620 --> 00:43:08,520
You don't have to meet someone too.

1125
00:43:09,390 --> 00:43:09,480
Yeah.

1126
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,310
And they'd be like, I
don't, I'm not interested.

1127
00:43:11,310 --> 00:43:11,615
No, no, no.

1128
00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:12,480
You have to meet too.

1129
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:13,740
Otherwise, I feel guilty.

1130
00:43:13,770 --> 00:43:15,660
You just read my biography.

1131
00:43:16,420 --> 00:43:19,210
That was our, that was our
whole life right there.

1132
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:19,450
Yeah.

1133
00:43:19,450 --> 00:43:23,110
It's like, I think you were sitting
in our, our bedroom the entire time.

1134
00:43:23,485 --> 00:43:25,015
Yeah, that's scenario A,

1135
00:43:25,015 --> 00:43:25,405
there's like

1136
00:43:25,405 --> 00:43:26,125
a whole alphabet

1137
00:43:26,125 --> 00:43:26,935
of patterns.

1138
00:43:29,125 --> 00:43:30,265
That was incredible.

1139
00:43:30,265 --> 00:43:31,495
I was like, holy crap.

1140
00:43:31,495 --> 00:43:33,325
Are we talking to a psychic over here?

1141
00:43:34,375 --> 00:43:35,185
That was, that was amazing.

1142
00:43:35,395 --> 00:43:36,295
That was good stuff.

1143
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:37,770
It's actually, I'm, I'm psychic.

1144
00:43:37,770 --> 00:43:40,795
That's, I was like, wow,
thats that profiling.

1145
00:43:40,795 --> 00:43:41,845
He got me on that one.

1146
00:43:43,825 --> 00:43:46,015
Now I have an interesting
question here for you.

1147
00:43:46,015 --> 00:43:53,545
How, how do cultural pressures around
performance in bed affect people entering

1148
00:43:53,545 --> 00:43:55,165
in the lifestyle, especially men?

1149
00:43:55,795 --> 00:43:58,615
Mm. I'll tell you how it
affected me or how it affects me,

1150
00:43:58,615 --> 00:44:00,460
because, um, I'm a Latino man.

1151
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,340
Yes, you are.

1152
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,140
And I feel like that married machismo, but

1153
00:44:04,210 --> 00:44:08,145
no, it is, it's a, so again, I, I've
always felt like my, my sex story is

1154
00:44:08,145 --> 00:44:10,335
lower than my partners and I feel.

1155
00:44:11,220 --> 00:44:14,340
I'm in disappointment, like, I'm
not enough, I'm not good enough,

1156
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:15,780
and I have to get more sex.

1157
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:17,250
I wanna have one more sex.

1158
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:20,520
And because I can't do it, then I
feel like, well, then they should

1159
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,160
be able to be with other people
because clearly someone else.

1160
00:44:23,550 --> 00:44:27,300
But that also reinforces the idea
that, yes, I am a failure, and they

1161
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:31,590
may find someone who's not a failure
and then be with them, which sucks.

1162
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,420
And also that means that if my partner
suggests they wanna meet someone else, the

1163
00:44:36,420 --> 00:44:39,240
only possible reason is I am a failure.

1164
00:44:39,725 --> 00:44:39,945
Mm.

1165
00:44:40,395 --> 00:44:40,745
Right?

1166
00:44:40,745 --> 00:44:40,985
Mm-hmm.

1167
00:44:40,985 --> 00:44:43,890
So it's always gonna be, I'm gonna lose.

1168
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:48,240
This comes from the, that the only
difference between friends and

1169
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:52,740
lovers sex when my relationship
is based around the idea of sex.

1170
00:44:53,370 --> 00:44:55,890
That's going to be the
only pillar that matters.

1171
00:44:55,890 --> 00:44:58,950
The only thing that's holding my
relationship up and anything that

1172
00:44:58,950 --> 00:45:00,630
touches it is it to be a big threat.

1173
00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:03,750
So when people go from monogamy to
non-monogamy, it's like, yes, but do

1174
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:07,560
you know what else makes your boyfriend
your boyfriend, or your girlfriend?

1175
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:07,980
Or girlfriend?

1176
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:09,720
Because if it's the only
thing, you gotta lose it.

1177
00:45:10,650 --> 00:45:14,280
Culturally, of course, as men
and Latino culture, at least

1178
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:15,540
we have to be the provider.

1179
00:45:15,540 --> 00:45:19,740
We have to be strong, we have to be
lusty, we have to be horny all the time.

1180
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:22,250
We have to have like,
be last a very long time

1181
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:23,600
and

1182
00:45:24,860 --> 00:45:26,360
sometimes you don't want to.

1183
00:45:26,925 --> 00:45:30,530
So like, since eight, I don't know.

1184
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:32,390
It's, it takes time.

1185
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:33,290
It takes a while.

1186
00:45:33,740 --> 00:45:37,820
I had one of my partners, we, we
have, we had a, um, a radar, which

1187
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:39,590
is a tool to book a monthly check-in.

1188
00:45:40,295 --> 00:45:44,525
Many, many years ago, and he
said, I need more sex with you.

1189
00:45:44,705 --> 00:45:45,665
I said, yes, of course.

1190
00:45:45,665 --> 00:45:46,325
No, totally.

1191
00:45:46,925 --> 00:45:49,625
So at the time, we were having sex
like once a week, more or less.

1192
00:45:50,195 --> 00:45:55,415
And so the next month we had sex
twice a week, and then the, the, the,

1193
00:45:55,475 --> 00:45:58,445
the end of the month came and we're
doing a chicken and he's like, so you

1194
00:45:58,445 --> 00:45:59,705
agreed to this and it didn't happen?

1195
00:45:59,705 --> 00:46:00,125
What's wrong?

1196
00:46:01,325 --> 00:46:02,255
I said, no, it didn't happen.

1197
00:46:03,035 --> 00:46:04,295
We had sex twice a week.

1198
00:46:04,955 --> 00:46:05,615
He said, that's nothing.

1199
00:46:05,615 --> 00:46:08,135
I'm like, that's literally a hundred
percent more than I was giving you.

1200
00:46:08,705 --> 00:46:11,285
So what do you want?

1201
00:46:11,795 --> 00:46:11,885
I

1202
00:46:11,885 --> 00:46:14,255
said, well, I would
like to do it every day.

1203
00:46:14,255 --> 00:46:15,815
I was not gonna happen.

1204
00:46:16,625 --> 00:46:17,825
Absolutely not gonna happen.

1205
00:46:18,545 --> 00:46:22,055
But that also, I also realized
that I am not used or I wasn't

1206
00:46:22,055 --> 00:46:24,065
used or taught to talk about sex.

1207
00:46:24,785 --> 00:46:25,745
So then I said, wait.

1208
00:46:26,510 --> 00:46:27,860
What is sex to you?

1209
00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:30,080
Because like penetration
I cannot do every day.

1210
00:46:30,140 --> 00:46:30,620
There's no way.

1211
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:31,340
Like it's just, no.

1212
00:46:31,445 --> 00:46:31,735
Yeah.

1213
00:46:31,755 --> 00:46:35,970
And having like rough sex, it's gonna
be like an hour and a half every day.

1214
00:46:36,270 --> 00:46:37,650
I wanna watch movies.

1215
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,785
I want to like lay down,
play games at, I don't

1216
00:46:39,785 --> 00:46:40,145
wanna just, yeah.

1217
00:46:40,265 --> 00:46:40,505
I wanna

1218
00:46:40,505 --> 00:46:40,905
do other things.

1219
00:46:41,085 --> 00:46:41,305
You

1220
00:46:41,305 --> 00:46:42,330
wanna play board games?

1221
00:46:42,330 --> 00:46:42,690
Yes,

1222
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:43,230
exactly.

1223
00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:44,090
Play board games.

1224
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,930
I whole port, I'm doing it.

1225
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:49,140
I was like, well no, like
oral or kissing or making out.

1226
00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:51,090
I'm like, yes, do all that.

1227
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:55,140
The thing is that sometimes I feel
like if I kiss you, you expect me

1228
00:46:55,140 --> 00:46:57,000
to go further and I don't want to.

1229
00:46:58,050 --> 00:46:59,910
And I was like, oh, we
can talk about this.

1230
00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:03,930
So I, these little moments, this
few moments of this is what I

1231
00:47:03,930 --> 00:47:05,400
want to give you and can give you.

1232
00:47:05,460 --> 00:47:06,930
But again, rejection.

1233
00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:11,520
I will reject you if you want more in
that moment or we could talk about it.

1234
00:47:12,420 --> 00:47:19,200
So learning to work with these cultural
pressure also means I have learned to

1235
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,600
accept rejection from you and reject.

1236
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:23,640
Wow.

1237
00:47:23,940 --> 00:47:25,650
So that's the men aspect.

1238
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:27,720
Let's talk about the women.

1239
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:32,920
How do you help them, like,
reclaim their sexual autonomy?

1240
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,230
And these, you know, without being guilty
or feeling guilty or shame, is it, does

1241
00:47:37,230 --> 00:47:38,820
it kind of work the same do you think?

1242
00:47:38,940 --> 00:47:40,140
How cancel do you wanna get me?

1243
00:47:40,140 --> 00:47:40,740
I'm not a woman.

1244
00:47:40,740 --> 00:47:41,040
I can take,

1245
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:42,450
I

1246
00:47:42,450 --> 00:47:44,640
can tell you my perspective
from when I work with clients.

1247
00:47:44,940 --> 00:47:45,000
Okay.

1248
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:46,020
Big disclaimer.

1249
00:47:46,620 --> 00:47:48,090
I am not speaking not a woman for

1250
00:47:48,090 --> 00:47:48,570
women.

1251
00:47:49,980 --> 00:47:50,130
Yes.

1252
00:47:50,135 --> 00:47:53,220
I'm speaking for, I'm not speaking for
women, for all women, for any women.

1253
00:47:53,220 --> 00:47:53,635
Just, just

1254
00:47:53,635 --> 00:47:54,570
your, just your clients.

1255
00:47:54,570 --> 00:47:55,410
Like how exactly

1256
00:47:55,410 --> 00:48:00,450
I'm sharing from my experience with my
clients mostly is being able to connect.

1257
00:48:00,765 --> 00:48:03,315
With pleasure and agency.

1258
00:48:03,585 --> 00:48:06,735
You know, like women culturally
are taught to not want sex.

1259
00:48:06,735 --> 00:48:08,265
This is bloody and it's wrong.

1260
00:48:08,595 --> 00:48:10,845
Or if they do want sex, they
have to be very receptive.

1261
00:48:10,845 --> 00:48:12,015
Like, what does the other person want?

1262
00:48:12,525 --> 00:48:16,485
Or it's like, there's a lot of layers
of guilt and prejudice that we have to

1263
00:48:16,485 --> 00:48:20,605
go through in order to get to, you can
enjoy your body and you can enjoy your

1264
00:48:20,605 --> 00:48:22,825
life and you don't need to have sex.

1265
00:48:22,855 --> 00:48:23,335
The same thing.

1266
00:48:23,605 --> 00:48:26,695
We don't, you don't need to
have sex with your partner to

1267
00:48:26,845 --> 00:48:28,345
validate your relationship.

1268
00:48:29,035 --> 00:48:29,065
Okay.

1269
00:48:29,070 --> 00:48:29,580
It's okay,

1270
00:48:30,385 --> 00:48:32,365
but now I have something to add to that.

1271
00:48:32,365 --> 00:48:36,175
Do you have a lot of Latina clients?

1272
00:48:36,355 --> 00:48:36,415
Yeah,

1273
00:48:37,075 --> 00:48:38,875
I mostly see, uh, Latinos.

1274
00:48:39,055 --> 00:48:39,265
Yeah.

1275
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:39,480
Yeah.

1276
00:48:39,485 --> 00:48:39,805
Okay.

1277
00:48:39,805 --> 00:48:45,745
So we were raised, um, I am bisexual, but
I didn't come out until I was much older.

1278
00:48:46,315 --> 00:48:47,065
Long story.

1279
00:48:47,065 --> 00:48:52,645
But I, um, I was raised to
be very submissive to my man.

1280
00:48:52,645 --> 00:48:53,095
Mm-hmm.

1281
00:48:53,335 --> 00:48:53,945
Now I am.

1282
00:48:55,060 --> 00:48:57,415
I'm not, I mean, at home, like I
always tell 'em in the bedroom, I'll

1283
00:48:57,415 --> 00:49:00,505
be submissive to you however you want,
but when we're outside of the bedroom,

1284
00:49:00,955 --> 00:49:03,805
you know, hey, we're cleaning, we're
doing all, you know what I mean?

1285
00:49:03,805 --> 00:49:04,495
Like, we're not

1286
00:49:04,550 --> 00:49:05,330
it's not him.

1287
00:49:05,330 --> 00:49:05,390
Yeah.

1288
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:07,130
You know, but in bed it's all him.

1289
00:49:07,340 --> 00:49:11,810
How do they, how do women, how do
you help them like get past that?

1290
00:49:11,810 --> 00:49:14,810
At least that, I mean, I know it's
for men too, in, in the Latino

1291
00:49:14,810 --> 00:49:15,890
culture, like when you're gay.

1292
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:16,890
No, but I understand.

1293
00:49:16,890 --> 00:49:16,995
Okay.

1294
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:18,435
Like, how does No, I understand.

1295
00:49:18,540 --> 00:49:20,790
How do you navigate that part?

1296
00:49:22,020 --> 00:49:23,160
Like with your clients

1297
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:26,160
talking about sex?

1298
00:49:26,430 --> 00:49:26,520
Mm-hmm.

1299
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,710
I've found, I have found that issues
with sex are very rarely about sex.

1300
00:49:31,740 --> 00:49:34,620
Mm. It's more like what?

1301
00:49:34,620 --> 00:49:36,960
It's like a symptom of the relationship.

1302
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:39,900
Because are you forcing it like
what you're saying right now?

1303
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:44,400
Like, I'm, I'm submissive to you in the
bedroom, but I am dominant to you outside.

1304
00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:44,670
Okay.

1305
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,280
What is, what's this frontier?

1306
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:48,360
What's, what's happening?

1307
00:49:48,660 --> 00:49:50,340
That's the context is not working.

1308
00:49:50,460 --> 00:49:51,150
Yeah.

1309
00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:53,220
And do you both enjoy this?

1310
00:49:53,220 --> 00:49:54,990
And if you both enjoy it, go for it.

1311
00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:55,350
Yeah.

1312
00:49:55,380 --> 00:49:58,950
If you don't, how are we
going to balance this?

1313
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,930
You know, like I, I have a very
dominant personality in most of my life.

1314
00:50:04,110 --> 00:50:07,470
And when I'm like in sexual
context or kink context, I'm

1315
00:50:07,470 --> 00:50:09,240
like, I don't wanna be a dom.

1316
00:50:09,330 --> 00:50:12,960
I just want someone to give me orders
and tell me what to do and I'll be good.

1317
00:50:13,290 --> 00:50:13,590
We hear that all the time.

1318
00:50:13,605 --> 00:50:14,370
And it's hard.

1319
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:14,900
Yeah.

1320
00:50:14,990 --> 00:50:19,340
But it's hard because I, I don't, it's
a pattern that I have to fight against.

1321
00:50:19,820 --> 00:50:23,145
Like, my immediate thing is like,
I was talking to my, my, my, my

1322
00:50:23,265 --> 00:50:27,525
Chicago, my partner Chicago with
it, we're doing something and

1323
00:50:27,525 --> 00:50:28,275
I'm like, no, no, I'll do it.

1324
00:50:28,335 --> 00:50:31,335
And he's like, you said you
want me to take care of you.

1325
00:50:32,115 --> 00:50:32,535
I was like, how?

1326
00:50:34,690 --> 00:50:34,980
Okay.

1327
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:37,470
It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

1328
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:37,770
Oh, yeah.

1329
00:50:37,955 --> 00:50:38,245
Yeah.

1330
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,880
Like, shut up, sit down and let
someone else make your sandwich

1331
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,410
and cut it into little triangles.

1332
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:43,770
Mm-hmm.

1333
00:50:44,010 --> 00:50:45,450
'cause I want triangles in my sandwich.

1334
00:50:45,450 --> 00:50:49,830
Like, oh, it's wonderful, but then
like, how do I pay you back with

1335
00:50:49,830 --> 00:50:52,110
my soul because you did something
for me and I don't deserve it.

1336
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,650
So there's like a lot of layers to that,
I would say, concerning your question.

1337
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:02,670
Sex usually is a symptom of the
relationship and the power exchange thing.

1338
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,950
It's definitely a cultural issue.

1339
00:51:06,450 --> 00:51:06,630
Yeah.

1340
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:06,810
Right.

1341
00:51:06,810 --> 00:51:09,380
And if he doesn't complain,
I feel like it's all good.

1342
00:51:09,740 --> 00:51:11,795
I complain all the time
because he doesn't listen,

1343
00:51:13,615 --> 00:51:14,075
he doesn't

1344
00:51:14,275 --> 00:51:14,475
complain.

1345
00:51:14,475 --> 00:51:14,675
Right.

1346
00:51:14,675 --> 00:51:15,715
As she twists his arm.

1347
00:51:15,855 --> 00:51:16,355
That's right.

1348
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,810
You can't see this, but
I'm blinking in Morse code.

1349
00:51:21,050 --> 00:51:21,350
Yes.

1350
00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:23,060
Help me please.

1351
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:27,800
Now you've built your brand around
mixing humor and deep wisdom.

1352
00:51:28,310 --> 00:51:33,470
Uh, how, how important is
humor when sex gets awkward?

1353
00:51:35,615 --> 00:51:37,265
It's, I hate it now.

1354
00:51:37,265 --> 00:51:38,330
I trying, I just, I love it.

1355
00:51:38,330 --> 00:51:43,875
Like, I think it's been hard for
me because it's very vulnerable.

1356
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:44,210
Mm-hmm.

1357
00:51:44,510 --> 00:51:48,435
Vulner, vulner, vulnerability and
humor to me are very difficult

1358
00:51:48,435 --> 00:51:52,785
to have coexist because I'm very,
again, very artistic, very literal.

1359
00:51:53,145 --> 00:51:55,875
So jokes can take a very dark turn for me.

1360
00:51:56,295 --> 00:51:56,535
Yeah.

1361
00:51:56,715 --> 00:52:00,465
But it's also important to
make it light and realize that

1362
00:52:00,465 --> 00:52:01,665
it's not the end of the world.

1363
00:52:02,475 --> 00:52:05,955
So when you say, um, that I do my
contact with humor, I love that

1364
00:52:05,955 --> 00:52:08,655
because I have a lot of dad jokes
that I think I don't only, I laugh at.

1365
00:52:09,405 --> 00:52:11,295
Um, and I love that.

1366
00:52:11,655 --> 00:52:13,485
And sometimes I'm like, I'm not kidding.

1367
00:52:13,485 --> 00:52:15,165
It's just kinda so funny
because I'm autistic.

1368
00:52:15,165 --> 00:52:15,810
Like I'm just, yeah.

1369
00:52:15,945 --> 00:52:19,035
I say things like matter of
factly because that's who I am.

1370
00:52:19,095 --> 00:52:19,245
People're.

1371
00:52:19,245 --> 00:52:20,205
Like, that's so funny.

1372
00:52:20,205 --> 00:52:21,255
Like, okay.

1373
00:52:21,315 --> 00:52:21,765
Yeah.

1374
00:52:22,305 --> 00:52:23,175
But it is that, right?

1375
00:52:23,175 --> 00:52:28,845
Like sometimes it's just, I wanna do
this this way and it lightens the mood.

1376
00:52:29,205 --> 00:52:29,505
It does.

1377
00:52:29,505 --> 00:52:29,595
Like

1378
00:52:29,865 --> 00:52:30,885
being able to say.

1379
00:52:31,930 --> 00:52:35,555
I I'm just not gonna be inside
you today 'cause it's not working.

1380
00:52:35,645 --> 00:52:35,945
Yeah.

1381
00:52:35,950 --> 00:52:36,620
Whatcha gonna do now?

1382
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:38,180
Whatcha gonna do

1383
00:52:38,180 --> 00:52:38,380
now?

1384
00:52:39,485 --> 00:52:39,605
Oh.

1385
00:52:39,605 --> 00:52:41,465
I always make jokes during sex.

1386
00:52:41,555 --> 00:52:42,065
You know, we,

1387
00:52:42,155 --> 00:52:45,275
I find it, I mean, it's like,
it's funny, you know, especially

1388
00:52:45,275 --> 00:52:46,685
when like, the men don't work.

1389
00:52:47,045 --> 00:52:48,995
Like when it's, they're
just not getting it.

1390
00:52:48,995 --> 00:52:49,325
You know?

1391
00:52:49,325 --> 00:52:50,495
It's just not gonna work.

1392
00:52:50,495 --> 00:52:51,845
And it's like, it's okay.

1393
00:52:51,935 --> 00:52:53,615
Little dude can come out another time.

1394
00:52:53,615 --> 00:52:54,005
You know?

1395
00:52:54,245 --> 00:52:56,620
Like we can, it's fun because
I don't want that guy.

1396
00:52:56,620 --> 00:52:57,060
It's, that could

1397
00:52:57,060 --> 00:52:57,860
be reassuring.

1398
00:52:57,860 --> 00:52:58,100
Yeah.

1399
00:52:58,100 --> 00:52:58,460
Reassuring.

1400
00:52:58,460 --> 00:52:58,500
Yeah.

1401
00:52:58,500 --> 00:52:59,780
Want the men to feel Yeah.

1402
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:00,340
To feel bad.

1403
00:53:00,545 --> 00:53:02,555
No, we, we're both very humorous.

1404
00:53:02,615 --> 00:53:02,705
I

1405
00:53:02,705 --> 00:53:03,815
do the high fives after.

1406
00:53:03,815 --> 00:53:05,225
Everyone does a good job.

1407
00:53:05,345 --> 00:53:05,885
She does.

1408
00:53:05,885 --> 00:53:06,305
You know.

1409
00:53:06,335 --> 00:53:06,635
Yeah.

1410
00:53:06,905 --> 00:53:08,045
She brings everybody.

1411
00:53:08,045 --> 00:53:08,855
See, I could, I should not have sex

1412
00:53:08,855 --> 00:53:09,125
with you.

1413
00:53:09,250 --> 00:53:09,470
No,

1414
00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:11,630
dammit.

1415
00:53:12,540 --> 00:53:12,830
Okay.

1416
00:53:12,830 --> 00:53:13,325
There you go.

1417
00:53:14,555 --> 00:53:16,110
No high fives no high.

1418
00:53:17,855 --> 00:53:18,005
That's

1419
00:53:18,005 --> 00:53:18,305
right.

1420
00:53:18,485 --> 00:53:19,715
I'm gonna look to my partner next time.

1421
00:53:19,715 --> 00:53:19,895
Just.

1422
00:53:22,005 --> 00:53:26,810
You know, um, honestly, we, we had
sex one time, very beginning, and it

1423
00:53:26,810 --> 00:53:29,840
was very hard for me to orgasm and
he made me orgasm and it was the best

1424
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,550
orgasm ever I can remember the day.

1425
00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:34,790
And I was like, man, high five.

1426
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:35,645
'cause that looks, I love that.

1427
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:36,710
Amazing.

1428
00:53:36,715 --> 00:53:37,005
Yeah,

1429
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:38,350
I love that.

1430
00:53:38,350 --> 00:53:38,540
He was like,

1431
00:53:38,540 --> 00:53:39,170
you high five me.

1432
00:53:39,170 --> 00:53:40,160
I was like, well, it was good.

1433
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:41,990
I mean, how can I, how gonna tell you?

1434
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:42,470
I mean,

1435
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:45,200
I like the reassurance
personally, so it works.

1436
00:53:45,410 --> 00:53:46,025
Yeah, of course.

1437
00:53:46,025 --> 00:53:46,305
Yeah.

1438
00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:49,220
Otherwise, she's gotta fill out one of
those little surveys and it's just a pain.

1439
00:53:49,225 --> 00:53:49,665
Oh, I love that.

1440
00:53:49,735 --> 00:53:50,025
Yeah.

1441
00:53:50,265 --> 00:53:51,110
I, I would love that.

1442
00:53:51,110 --> 00:53:52,370
A reviewing yelp.

1443
00:53:52,370 --> 00:53:53,480
It's all digital now, so.

1444
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:53,750
Yeah.

1445
00:53:55,730 --> 00:54:00,560
Now, what's the most surprising or out
there sexual boundary you've seen a

1446
00:54:00,590 --> 00:54:04,370
client or follower successfully negotiate?

1447
00:54:04,415 --> 00:54:04,475
Oh

1448
00:54:05,490 --> 00:54:06,720
I live in a different world.

1449
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,105
I, I was talking about this
morning with one of my friends.

1450
00:54:10,765 --> 00:54:14,305
I was talking about how, like,
yeah, well if they're kinky, you're

1451
00:54:14,305 --> 00:54:15,505
like, no, I'm not really kinky.

1452
00:54:15,505 --> 00:54:19,165
You're, I'm into bondage and
fisting and you know, water, sports,

1453
00:54:19,595 --> 00:54:20,705
just regular stuff.

1454
00:54:21,395 --> 00:54:22,325
And I'm like, right.

1455
00:54:22,415 --> 00:54:27,125
So when you say that, I'm like, okay,
what's a, what's not their boundary?

1456
00:54:27,815 --> 00:54:29,045
I don't even know.

1457
00:54:29,045 --> 00:54:32,195
Like, it's just because again,
to me, boundaries are all about

1458
00:54:32,255 --> 00:54:34,475
what I, how I protect myself,

1459
00:54:34,685 --> 00:54:35,045
right?

1460
00:54:35,315 --> 00:54:35,525
Sure.

1461
00:54:35,585 --> 00:54:35,795
Right.

1462
00:54:35,795 --> 00:54:40,475
So it's, it's not how, how
somebody else is going to act, but.

1463
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:41,120
I don't know.

1464
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:45,170
One of my favorites is I will not
participate and I will just watch my fox.

1465
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,860
They love it and make me so happy
and people freak out and like the

1466
00:54:48,860 --> 00:54:51,860
third or the fourth or whoever will
be like, doesn't he wanna join?

1467
00:54:51,860 --> 00:54:52,940
I'm like, you have no idea.

1468
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,040
I am having a lot more
fun than you two are.

1469
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:55,640
Yeah.

1470
00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:57,260
I am winning here.

1471
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:58,850
Yes.

1472
00:54:58,850 --> 00:55:01,730
I told our girlfriend, I was like,
oh no, y'all, I can just sit here

1473
00:55:01,730 --> 00:55:04,580
and have a bag of Doritos and
drink my Dutch bros. I'm good.

1474
00:55:04,610 --> 00:55:05,330
It's great.

1475
00:55:05,570 --> 00:55:05,990
I'm good.

1476
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:06,200
It's great.

1477
00:55:06,205 --> 00:55:06,465
Great.

1478
00:55:06,465 --> 00:55:07,820
Little, a little break every now and then.

1479
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:09,410
Yeah.

1480
00:55:09,415 --> 00:55:09,980
Oh, I have one.

1481
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:10,940
Okay.

1482
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:11,150
I

1483
00:55:11,150 --> 00:55:11,360
have one.

1484
00:55:11,540 --> 00:55:13,400
And this is, this is personal experience.

1485
00:55:13,710 --> 00:55:17,090
At the time I had a partner
who we were op, we were close.

1486
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,750
He wanted to open the relationship
and he said that he never used

1487
00:55:20,750 --> 00:55:22,190
condoms with anybody ever.

1488
00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:25,460
And he wanted me to know that
before we opened the relationship.

1489
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:26,990
And I said, Ooh, I'm not
comfortable with that.

1490
00:55:27,620 --> 00:55:28,700
Let's talk about it.

1491
00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:30,770
And he said, of course.

1492
00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:34,100
There was very little
like a yes no answer.

1493
00:55:35,150 --> 00:55:36,530
And then he said, how about this?

1494
00:55:36,590 --> 00:55:38,270
I will use condoms with you.

1495
00:55:39,980 --> 00:55:41,510
And that broke my mind.

1496
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:43,370
So I'm like, that's not fair.

1497
00:55:43,730 --> 00:55:44,570
I'm your boyfriend.

1498
00:55:44,570 --> 00:55:45,620
Why do I get that?

1499
00:55:46,850 --> 00:55:50,480
And it's, it sucks in a way
because it is a boundary and valid.

1500
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:51,020
Right.

1501
00:55:51,020 --> 00:55:54,170
I'm like, you can have your sex
life the way you wanna have it.

1502
00:55:54,175 --> 00:55:54,505
Mm-hmm.

1503
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:58,280
And I, you are offering me an option.

1504
00:55:58,850 --> 00:55:59,180
Yeah.

1505
00:56:00,020 --> 00:56:02,720
Now the difference between
that manipulation is not

1506
00:56:03,290 --> 00:56:03,380
I was about to ask you.

1507
00:56:03,380 --> 00:56:03,680
Yeah.

1508
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:04,220
So

1509
00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:08,300
it depends on how you expect the
other person to react or how,

1510
00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:09,860
or what happens in negotiation.

1511
00:56:10,490 --> 00:56:14,210
If I'm using this as a weapon
to be like, wow, okay, well

1512
00:56:14,215 --> 00:56:15,440
then, then you get the condom.

1513
00:56:15,950 --> 00:56:16,430
How's that?

1514
00:56:17,060 --> 00:56:18,290
Are you sure you wanna do this?

1515
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,815
And then that becomes a,
a way to manipulate you.

1516
00:56:20,995 --> 00:56:21,415
Yeah.

1517
00:56:21,535 --> 00:56:21,805
But.

1518
00:56:22,315 --> 00:56:27,355
I always come from an idea of compassion
that we are all trying our best.

1519
00:56:27,535 --> 00:56:30,655
So I am not assuming that
he's trying to manipulate me.

1520
00:56:31,315 --> 00:56:32,275
That's his best choice.

1521
00:56:32,275 --> 00:56:37,075
Now, what do I, that's then my
s come in, am I okay with this?

1522
00:56:37,325 --> 00:56:39,245
If not, then how am I
gonna protect myself?

1523
00:56:39,245 --> 00:56:41,105
What other thing can I ask him for?

1524
00:56:41,855 --> 00:56:42,095
You know?

1525
00:56:42,095 --> 00:56:43,865
And this is where creativity comes in.

1526
00:56:43,865 --> 00:56:44,495
Mm-hmm.

1527
00:56:44,795 --> 00:56:48,005
People think that boundaries stop the
conversation and they're so scary.

1528
00:56:48,005 --> 00:56:50,735
But when I know your boundaries
and you know, mine, we can

1529
00:56:50,735 --> 00:56:54,095
start exploring and playing and
creating and finding other ways.

1530
00:56:54,095 --> 00:56:56,825
Now, in the end, uh, we
didn't open the relationship.

1531
00:56:56,825 --> 00:56:58,745
We broke up, uh, for other reasons.

1532
00:56:59,525 --> 00:57:00,935
So there's no end to that story.

1533
00:57:01,415 --> 00:57:06,125
But I do wanna make a, a quick
comment about this, uh, STIs.

1534
00:57:06,635 --> 00:57:07,175
Yes, please.

1535
00:57:07,175 --> 00:57:07,535
Because people

1536
00:57:07,535 --> 00:57:08,705
say, what about STIs?

1537
00:57:08,705 --> 00:57:10,955
I'm like, a monogamy does
not protect you from STIs.

1538
00:57:11,050 --> 00:57:11,450
Mm-hmm.

1539
00:57:11,585 --> 00:57:13,145
If you're a monogamous
and you're listening.

1540
00:57:13,565 --> 00:57:17,545
Please go get tested because a lot mono
people have syphilis and other things that

1541
00:57:17,545 --> 00:57:21,205
they don't know they have because they,
you know, they have sex with condoms and

1542
00:57:21,205 --> 00:57:23,965
then, no, not anymore because they love
each other and then they break up and they

1543
00:57:23,965 --> 00:57:27,835
repeat the process and they don't realize
that they're having many unprotected

1544
00:57:27,885 --> 00:57:30,165
sexual partners who don't test either.

1545
00:57:30,215 --> 00:57:30,275
Yeah.

1546
00:57:30,275 --> 00:57:30,485
Right.

1547
00:57:30,485 --> 00:57:34,565
Um, I went to Berlin two years ago.

1548
00:57:34,775 --> 00:57:35,105
Okay.

1549
00:57:35,405 --> 00:57:43,295
And I went to a few places and I did
things, and on the plane back, I was

1550
00:57:43,355 --> 00:57:46,925
already planning on all the shots and
pills and everything I have to take Yeah.

1551
00:57:47,225 --> 00:57:50,885
All the tests I needed because I,
for I for sure brought all the STIs

1552
00:57:50,885 --> 00:57:52,385
in the world, invented new ones.

1553
00:57:52,385 --> 00:57:55,835
Like there's no one I came back,
I got tested for everything.

1554
00:57:55,925 --> 00:57:56,400
I had nothing.

1555
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:57,230
Nothing at all.

1556
00:57:58,220 --> 00:57:59,600
And I was proposed.

1557
00:57:59,930 --> 00:58:00,710
I was like, how's this happening?

1558
00:58:01,490 --> 00:58:02,870
Information is very important.

1559
00:58:02,875 --> 00:58:03,165
Mm-hmm.

1560
00:58:03,530 --> 00:58:07,940
You know, like people who are in poly and
in non monogamy, I'm gonna say everybody.

1561
00:58:08,585 --> 00:58:14,405
Are more likely to be comfortable
talking about testing, about, uh, status.

1562
00:58:14,505 --> 00:58:18,705
About, uh, prevention, about, and
people will call me, Hey, you know what?

1563
00:58:18,705 --> 00:58:20,115
I just tested positive for this.

1564
00:58:20,775 --> 00:58:21,495
Get a test.

1565
00:58:21,795 --> 00:58:22,095
Yeah.

1566
00:58:22,185 --> 00:58:22,755
Which is great.

1567
00:58:23,235 --> 00:58:23,295
Yeah.

1568
00:58:23,505 --> 00:58:24,555
They should, they should.

1569
00:58:24,555 --> 00:58:24,825
I mean,

1570
00:58:25,575 --> 00:58:25,665
yeah.

1571
00:58:25,665 --> 00:58:28,125
And the two STIs that
I've had wearing monogamy.

1572
00:58:28,665 --> 00:58:30,615
So, uh, I mean, I'm just one person.

1573
00:58:30,615 --> 00:58:30,675
Yeah.

1574
00:58:30,675 --> 00:58:31,725
But I see this all the time.

1575
00:58:32,235 --> 00:58:34,455
So if you're monogamous, get tested.

1576
00:58:34,485 --> 00:58:37,725
If you're a polyamorous or
non-monogamous, also get tested and

1577
00:58:37,725 --> 00:58:41,205
remember there's doxy pep, there's prep,
there's pep, there's lots of things

1578
00:58:41,205 --> 00:58:43,245
you can do to enjoy your sex life.

1579
00:58:43,335 --> 00:58:43,425
Mm-hmm.

1580
00:58:43,665 --> 00:58:45,945
Safely and restore, uh,
wherever your risks.

1581
00:58:46,245 --> 00:58:47,295
Yes, absolutely.

1582
00:58:48,145 --> 00:58:48,165
Well put.

1583
00:58:48,535 --> 00:58:50,515
Uh, well, we got one
more and then, uh, yes.

1584
00:58:50,545 --> 00:58:55,265
We're gonna go into our outro
and then as soon as that's done,

1585
00:58:55,265 --> 00:58:56,890
we're all done there, so, okay.

1586
00:58:57,005 --> 00:58:59,915
Uh, we'll, we'll go from you want
to, you wanna do this last one?

1587
00:58:59,915 --> 00:58:59,970
You can do.

1588
00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:00,090
No,

1589
00:59:00,245 --> 00:59:00,425
you do.

1590
00:59:00,455 --> 00:59:00,875
Okay.

1591
00:59:01,625 --> 00:59:01,985
So.

1592
00:59:02,765 --> 00:59:07,415
If you could design one universal
workshop for both swingers and poly folks.

1593
00:59:07,415 --> 00:59:07,535
Yes.

1594
00:59:08,075 --> 00:59:08,945
What's the one?

1595
00:59:08,945 --> 00:59:12,545
Sexual ethic you'd want
them all to walk away with?

1596
00:59:13,295 --> 00:59:13,925
Compassion.

1597
00:59:14,465 --> 00:59:15,215
Compassion.

1598
00:59:15,725 --> 00:59:21,845
Compassion to me is, so I have a, my model
of ethical relationships has four pillars.

1599
00:59:21,905 --> 00:59:24,425
Agency, honesty, consent, and compassion.

1600
00:59:25,205 --> 00:59:28,175
Compassion has three meanings.

1601
00:59:28,505 --> 00:59:30,095
One is assuming good faith.

1602
00:59:30,725 --> 00:59:35,495
Two is taking everybody's wellbeing
into consideration when I make a choice.

1603
00:59:36,425 --> 00:59:40,625
And three is assuming we're
all doing the best we can with

1604
00:59:40,685 --> 00:59:42,065
the tools we have available.

1605
00:59:43,955 --> 00:59:49,415
This also means that understanding is
not justifying and is not accepting.

1606
00:59:51,155 --> 00:59:53,825
I can have compassion for
you and be like, okay, you.

1607
00:59:54,410 --> 00:59:55,760
I hate people playing with my nipples.

1608
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:57,200
I have very nipples and I hate it.

1609
00:59:57,205 --> 00:59:57,555
I hate it.

1610
00:59:57,590 --> 00:59:57,950
I hate it.

1611
00:59:58,490 --> 01:00:01,100
And I have a couple of friends
I have sex with regularly.

1612
01:00:01,340 --> 01:00:04,580
One of them always forgets
and Oh, it's annoying.

1613
01:00:05,150 --> 01:00:06,680
Have, yes, I'm sorry.

1614
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:07,130
I'm sorry.

1615
01:00:07,130 --> 01:00:07,850
I'm like, I know.

1616
01:00:09,050 --> 01:00:11,330
Compassion is, I know.

1617
01:00:11,330 --> 01:00:13,450
You forget because
it's, it's, it's common.

1618
01:00:13,450 --> 01:00:15,160
Like he, we get, we're in the moment.

1619
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:16,690
He just impulsively does it.

1620
01:00:17,530 --> 01:00:18,940
I am not going to accept it.

1621
01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:22,450
And that's like a minor thing.

1622
01:00:22,450 --> 01:00:24,340
If it's, it's, if it's something
more important, they can still

1623
01:00:24,340 --> 01:00:26,260
say, you broke my consent.

1624
01:00:26,290 --> 01:00:30,965
Oh, I had a, I had a friend sex with you
before at one time he sends me a video

1625
01:00:31,325 --> 01:00:34,535
of us and he's like, it was so hot today.

1626
01:00:35,495 --> 01:00:37,175
And I'm like, you were recording us.

1627
01:00:37,895 --> 01:00:41,105
And he says, it was just, I
just did it in the moment.

1628
01:00:41,345 --> 01:00:43,240
And this just a little bit, you
can, you can, you can see your face.

1629
01:00:44,525 --> 01:00:44,675
And

1630
01:00:44,675 --> 01:00:46,815
I said, whoa I'm not okay with this.

1631
01:00:47,145 --> 01:00:49,005
I'm not okay with, please delete that.

1632
01:00:49,785 --> 01:00:50,835
And he said, I'm sorry.

1633
01:00:50,955 --> 01:00:51,645
I didn't think about it.

1634
01:00:51,765 --> 01:00:55,545
And I'm like, that's I agree with, I
understand and I assume good faith.

1635
01:00:55,545 --> 01:00:57,045
I don't think you were trying to hurt me.

1636
01:00:57,555 --> 01:00:58,515
I don't think you're evil.

1637
01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:00,765
I think that's the best way
for you to communicate it.

1638
01:01:00,765 --> 01:01:02,025
And you didn't know how
to say it differently.

1639
01:01:02,625 --> 01:01:03,195
That's perfect.

1640
01:01:03,615 --> 01:01:07,185
And I don't hate you and I
won't have sex with you again.

1641
01:01:07,665 --> 01:01:08,565
So I don't feel safe anymore.

1642
01:01:08,925 --> 01:01:09,045
Mm-hmm.

1643
01:01:09,315 --> 01:01:12,525
So understanding that you don't
have to be a villain for me to

1644
01:01:12,525 --> 01:01:13,995
walk away and take care of myself.

1645
01:01:14,865 --> 01:01:15,705
I can still love you.

1646
01:01:15,705 --> 01:01:16,515
I can still like you.

1647
01:01:16,515 --> 01:01:16,785
I can.

1648
01:01:17,295 --> 01:01:22,065
I think that's huge because sometimes
we don't walk away because we

1649
01:01:22,065 --> 01:01:23,355
don't wanna villainize the person.

1650
01:01:23,535 --> 01:01:23,625
Mm-hmm.

1651
01:01:23,865 --> 01:01:24,075
Right.

1652
01:01:24,405 --> 01:01:30,135
And when you say, I love you and I
don't want this again, rejection.

1653
01:01:30,945 --> 01:01:31,185
Right.

1654
01:01:31,215 --> 01:01:32,085
I think it's very important.

1655
01:01:32,325 --> 01:01:33,075
It is, right?

1656
01:01:33,075 --> 01:01:34,065
It is, man.

1657
01:01:34,065 --> 01:01:34,605
I love that.

1658
01:01:34,605 --> 01:01:35,025
That's great.

1659
01:01:35,025 --> 01:01:35,115
Right?

1660
01:01:35,715 --> 01:01:35,925
Yeah.

1661
01:01:35,925 --> 01:01:38,475
No, we're gonna have all your
little posters all over the place.

1662
01:01:38,625 --> 01:01:39,610
See you read that one.

1663
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:40,210
Kidding?

1664
01:01:40,210 --> 01:01:40,570
That's right.

1665
01:01:42,610 --> 01:01:42,920
Jaime.

1666
01:01:43,575 --> 01:01:45,435
Thank you so much for joining us today.

1667
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:46,090
Thank you for having me.

1668
01:01:46,420 --> 01:01:51,465
Thank you for sharing your insights
on love and ethics and reimagining

1669
01:01:51,465 --> 01:01:52,875
how we relate to each other.

1670
01:01:53,055 --> 01:01:54,105
This is all really cool.

1671
01:01:54,375 --> 01:01:57,465
For our listeners, if you want to
connect with Jaime, you can find

1672
01:01:57,465 --> 01:02:00,595
him at gotitasdepoliamor.com.

1673
01:02:02,355 --> 01:02:03,165
Did I get that right?

1674
01:02:03,615 --> 01:02:04,125
Yes.

1675
01:02:04,125 --> 01:02:05,295
And any social network.

1676
01:02:05,595 --> 01:02:08,475
And now Instagram and Facebook are
also translating my po my reels.

1677
01:02:08,475 --> 01:02:09,735
So you can watch them
in English and stuff.

1678
01:02:10,125 --> 01:02:11,535
Yes, I actually saw that.

1679
01:02:11,535 --> 01:02:15,135
So everybody, um, follow him on
Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok.

1680
01:02:15,135 --> 01:02:17,205
He's got awesome TikTok videos.

1681
01:02:17,505 --> 01:02:21,735
If you're Latino, please that
it's like the best information.

1682
01:02:21,735 --> 01:02:22,425
I swear, that's cute.

1683
01:02:22,755 --> 01:02:24,075
Um, you can find him all that.

1684
01:02:24,075 --> 01:02:25,575
You can find all the information

1685
01:02:25,605 --> 01:02:26,715
find it in our show notes.

1686
01:02:26,715 --> 01:02:27,255
There you go.

1687
01:02:27,255 --> 01:02:30,525
You'll find it in our show
notes as well as our website.

1688
01:02:30,645 --> 01:02:35,445
Remember, it's at www
dot beyond monogamy.com.

1689
01:02:35,565 --> 01:02:39,285
That's where you can find all of our
past episodes, our blog, our merch,

1690
01:02:39,285 --> 01:02:41,445
and all of our links in one place.

1691
01:02:41,985 --> 01:02:43,935
You know, I spelled out the word dash.

1692
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:44,420
You did.

1693
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,615
And you still, you still, uh,
still just went past it, huh?

1694
01:02:48,615 --> 01:02:48,765
You did.

1695
01:02:48,765 --> 01:02:48,945
I'm sorry.

1696
01:02:50,330 --> 01:02:51,435
Yeah, I see that

1697
01:02:52,995 --> 01:02:56,235
you can also catch us every
Thursday at 1:00 PM and 6:00 PM

1698
01:02:56,235 --> 01:02:58,455
Central on full swap radio.com.

1699
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,200
And Jaime, it was such a
joy to have you on with us.

1700
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:01,440
Yeah.

1701
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:01,710
Thank you for

1702
01:03:01,710 --> 01:03:02,430
having me.

1703
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:03,240
Absolutely.

1704
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:04,035
Thank you very much.

1705
01:03:04,635 --> 01:03:07,410
Whenever you have that book
in English, it's for him.

1706
01:03:07,410 --> 01:03:09,450
He, he won't, he can't
do the Spanish one, so.

1707
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:10,020
Yeah.

1708
01:03:10,020 --> 01:03:11,340
But I, I, you know,

1709
01:03:11,580 --> 01:03:14,130
I, yeah, I, I am, uh,
I am very interested.

1710
01:03:14,130 --> 01:03:16,020
I, I, I had a ball talking to you.

1711
01:03:16,170 --> 01:03:18,810
I really would, uh, love
to talk to you again.

1712
01:03:18,810 --> 01:03:20,880
Maybe we can get you on the
show again in the future.

1713
01:03:20,940 --> 01:03:21,300
Anytime.

1714
01:03:21,580 --> 01:03:24,520
And with that, uh, we appreciate
all of our listeners tuning in

1715
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,380
for another wonderful guest.

1716
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:32,110
And with that, I will say keep listening
and we will see you guys next week.

1717
01:03:32,140 --> 01:03:32,530
Bye.