Oct. 26, 2025
Transforming Love: Jessica Fern & David Cooley on Shame, Attachment & Polywise Relationships
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Jessica Fern & David Cooley on Attachment, Resentment & Rewriting the Rules of Non-Monogamy
Guests: Jessica Fern (author of Polysecure, Polywise, and Transforming the Shame Triangle) and David Cooley (restorative-justice facilitator, creator of Restorative Relationship Conversations).
Episode Summary
In this heart-to-heart, Adam & Pris sit down with Jessica Fern and David Cooley to go deeper than "What is polyamory?" They unpack attachment styles, why resentment is jealousy's sneaky cousin, and how the Shame Triangle (inner persecutor, inner victim, inner rescuer) quietly shapes conflict—and how to transform it with practical tools rooted in IFS and restorative practices.
The convo hits real-life dynamics: ditching the "50/50" myth, navigating capacity and time (especially with kids), and why relationships thrive when both partners bring 100%—just not in the same way every day. Adam & Pris get candid about their own poly chapter, burnout, and finding balance, while Jessica & David share how their post-divorce collaboration became one of their healthiest partnerships.
Keywords: Jessica Fern, David Cooley, Polysecure, Polywise, Transforming the Shame Triangle, attachment theory, IFS therapy, ethical non-monogamy, open relationships, jealousy vs resentment, relationship repair, capacity, family dynamics, Beyond Monogamy podcast, Full Swap Radio.
Listen & Subscribe
- Website: beyond-monogamy.com
- Full Swap Radio: Thursdays at 1 PM & 6 PM CST
- Patreon (early access, After Hours clips, bonus minis, Discord): Patreon.com/BeyondMonogamywith
Show Notes
- Attachment & IFS: How to spot when a part (not your core self) is driving reactivity—and how to respond with needs-based clarity.
- Jealousy vs. Resentment: Resentment is the "check-engine light" for unmet needs or long-standing imbalances—don't villainize it, learn from it.
- The 50/50 Myth: Healthy partnerships aren't perfectly split; they're capacity-aware and transparent about changing needs over time.
- Polyamory + Parenting: Why time/energy constraints shift when kids are young—and how integrating partners into the family system can help.
- The Shame Triangle: Inner persecutor ➝ inner victim (shame) ➝ inner rescuer/escapers (over/under-functioning, numbing, projection) and how to break the cycle.
- Collaboration After Divorce: Jessica & David describe dissolving romance, rebuilding trust, and co-creating work that actually deepens harmony.
Guest Links & Resources
- JessicaFern.com — book info, events, workshops (New book Transforming the Shame Triangle releases on October 31; pre-release discount via site).
- Polysecure, The Polysecure Workbook, Polywise — widely available wherever books are sold.
- Upcoming signings mentioned: Asheville (Malaprops, Oct 28), Atlanta (Cherish Books, Nov 4), Bay Area events week of Dec 17 with a day-long workshop on Dec 22.
Favorite Moments
"Resentment is a really important signal—like a dashboard light. There's a need underneath it asking to be seen."
"Stop chasing 50/50. Bring your 100%—and expect your partner to bring theirs—in ways that ebb and flow with real capacity."
"The Shame Triangle links that inner critic, the shame it creates, and the 'escapes' we use to avoid feeling it. Naming it is the first step to changing it."Timestamps
- 00:01 — Meet Jessica & David; books, backgrounds, collaboration
- 16:00 — Sacredness, conditioning & rethinking mononormative scripts
- 18:00 — Jealousy vs. resentment; needs, signals & repair
- 22:00 — Ditching 50/50; capacity, boundaries, expectations
- 29:00 — Poly + parenting; integrating partners into family systems
- 44:00 — The Shame Triangle explained (persecutor, victim, rescuer/escapers)
- 54:00 — Why feedback can trigger shame—and how to receive it better
- 55:00 — Book release timing & event tour details
Support the Show
Love the conversation? Join our Patreon for early access, After Hours clips, bonus minis, Discord hangs, and more. Catch us on Full Swap Radio every Thursday at 1 PM & 6 PM CST.
Follow us: Facebook @BeyondMonogamy4U • Instagram @beyond_monogamy_4u • TikTok @beyond.monogamy & @adam&beyond • YouTube @BeyondMonogamywithAdamPris
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Alright y'all, before we
dive in, a quick heads up.
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This show is raw, real, and
definitely not rated pg.
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We're talking about adult themes, sexual
content, and the kind of stuff you
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probably don't want blasting through your
speakers at work or around your kits.
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So grab some headphones, pour your
drink of choice and get comfy.
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Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not
licensed therapists, counselors, or sex.
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Couches.
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Sex coaches.
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Sex coaches, not sex couches
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or just a couple of people sharing our
lives, experiences and sexy adventures.
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An ethical non-monogamy.
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So with that, pull up a
chair and enjoy the show.
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And.
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Hello, and welcome to another
episode of Beyond Monogamy.
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I'm Adam.
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And I'm Pris.
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And today we're sitting down with two
of absolute legends in the world of open
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relationships and emotional intelligence.
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Jessica Fern and David Cooley.
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You might already know Jessica's name.
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She's basically the
Beyonce of polyamory books.
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Oh, she wrote PolySecure, the
PolySecure Workbook, Polywise, and now
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she's got a brand new one out called
Transforming the Shame Triangle.
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Yes.
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This woman is no joke guys.
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She's got a master's
in conflict resolution.
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She is a certified clinical
trauma professional.
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A trained internal family systems
practitioner and has over 25 years
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working with folks all over the world
on attachment trauma and non-monogamy.
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Basically, she helps people stop repeating
the same emotional patterns and start
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creating love that actually lasts.
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And then there's David Cooley,
who, let's be real, is the calm,
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grounded counterbalance to all
of us emotionally chaotic people.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Just like me.
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Totally.
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He's a professional restorative
justice facilitator.
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A diversity and privilege
awareness trainer.
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Yeah.
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And the creator of the restorative
relationship conversations, which
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helps people turn conflict into
connection instead of World, world iii.
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Instead of what now?
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World War.
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I can't say it.
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It's
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World War iii.
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There we go.
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One of us can use that one.
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All good.
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So David's got that deep,
mindful approach that just makes
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you feel seen and sane again.
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Together they've shaped how we understand
attachment repair and the emotional
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side of non-monogamy, and they do
it with actual heart, not jargon.
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So today we're not doing the
basic what is polyamory thing?
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We're going deeper.
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The messy, the funny, the
uncomfortable, and the real life
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parts People don't usually talk about.
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Yeah, we're talking co-writing chaos.
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How Resentment is Jealousy's
Sneaky Cousin, and those weird
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little relationship experiments.
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That sound great in theory,
but go sideways fast.
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So grab your coffee, grab your
partner, and let's get Polywise
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with Jessica Fern and David Coley.
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That's
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right.
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Welcome to the show, guys.
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Welcome.
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I told you it was a relief.
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Oh
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man,
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I do.
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That was
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a long one.
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That was, I, I gotta admit
that was the longest one.
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It is because I was so excited to have
you guys, and I was like, that goes
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down in history for our best intros.
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That's right.
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That's, that's definitely the highest
the bar's ever been set in an intro.
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Well, so I, I
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figure in the very least, at
least the intro would be good
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if the rest of the show fails,
they can drop it from that point.
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So,
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and then go read your
book and That's right.
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That's right.
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There you go.
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That's right.
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That's gonna be the, it's gonna
go from the intro to the outro
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and it's gonna say, just read the,
you'll get everything from the book.
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All
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I love it.
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So,
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uh, you know, before we get started
into the talking points, which I have
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several I really want to familiarize
our audience, our listeners with not
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necessarily who y'all are as writers,
but maybe a little bit more personal.
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And if I could start with Jessica,
how, how did you find yourself
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in the world of non-monogamy?
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Yeah.
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As a professional or as personally?
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E Either or actually, or both.
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If we could, you know, I wanna
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know personally.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, personally it was like being
14 and kissing a girl, best friend
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with a guy at the same time, and
just being like, oh, this is a thing.
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Nice.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, sometimes it's
just as simple as that.
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Yeah.
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As simple as that.
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Right.
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And then there's, you know,
iterations of it throughout
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time.
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Yeah.
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And then
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eventually it led you to
your professional journey.
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It did.
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Right.
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And that really felt like it came to
me where I was working as a therapist
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with couples and in one week all of my
therapy couples clients brought to session
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wanting to open up their relationship.
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And even though personally I
had experience or known about
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it professionally, I was like,
oh, the only thing I know about
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this is that it's pathologized.
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Like what do I do?
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And so I really had to figure
out how to support my clients.
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Right on.
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Well, you know, moving over to David.
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What about you my man?
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I mean, so this world of
ethical non-monogamy, how
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did you find yourself in.
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Basically Jessica told me we were gonna
be doing it, so there's no other choice.
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That's,
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I found myself doing the
podcast for the same reasons.
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Yeah.
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I mean, not that Jessica
told me, but my wife told me.
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Yeah, that's
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right.
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No, she, in that same anecdote where she
was starting to get exposed to it through
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clients' inquiry, it became something
philosophically intriguing for both of us.
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And so that's something that we've
really connected on deeply is
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intellectual, emotional stimulation.
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Whenever there's something
that's intriguing to one, it's
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usually a crossover for both.
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And so we started to
really think about it.
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So we went into a deep dive of
what are the implications of it?
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What are the philosophical
principles and values that really
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feel compelling to us about this?
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And so I think it was about six, seven, I
don't know, kinda six month, eight month
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window where we started to really say.
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Is this something that we could do?
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Mm, right on.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, we, we kind of did
that, that for a little bit.
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Yeah, you could say that.
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You could do that.
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Yeah.
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I, um, we started doing the poly
thing and I did not care for it.
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Well, so, because I was, so, I was 40.
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I was 40 and Yeah.
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You were in your forties.
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I was going through menopause.
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Yeah.
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I was about three hours away
from my kids and my husband.
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And it just was not
oof, wasn't a good time.
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No.
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Mentally a for me was not a good time.
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I had not been diagnosed.
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Um.
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So when I went to the doctor and
they told me, I was like, oh.
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I mean, I could tell that
my emotions were off.
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And so like, I was like, Ooh, we're
not doing this Polly thing anymore.
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I, on the other hand, had a
really good time as Polly.
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Um, you know, I, it, it really, I mean,
it served its purposes for us Yeah.
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In that it really helped us learn how to
communicate, which I think was incredible.
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'Cause I thought we could communicate
well before, and apparently we did not.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I mean that's, we, we
definitely had our, our, uh, our
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wrestles with it and it's still
it's still in the air, which I love.
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Yeah.
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But yeah,
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you know, I'm not gonna.
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Guys, I'm not gonna hold you up.
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No.
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I'm gonna talk
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about my son full day long.
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Yes, you will.
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Jessica, I see your, your happy
smiling face in front of me here.
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I have a question for you.
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We're gonna kick this off real easy.
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If your partnership or collaboration
with David was a movie, what would
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be the behind the scenes moment that
never makes the trailer, but totally
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explains how you two work together?
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Oh my God, I need Dave
to answer this one too.
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Yeah, well, you guys are collaborative.
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I mean, yeah,
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yeah.
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Is it like us having these conversations
about big things like while making
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lunch and breakfast for our son?
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Yeah, could be.
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Could be
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part of it, yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah,
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like
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a little rom-com.
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That would definitely be ours.
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Yeah.
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Or Rambo.
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I mean, one of them.
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, um.
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In our relationship.
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'Cause you know, everybody's gotta
have that balance in our relationship.
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I'm the, uh, the positive, happy one.
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Pause, right?
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Oh, I wasn't, if y'all were expecting
me to finish that I wasn't, I
221
00:08:22,454 --> 00:08:26,024
just, I would rather label myself
and you guys figure out the rest.
222
00:08:26,234 --> 00:08:26,354
Okay.
223
00:08:26,624 --> 00:08:26,984
That's right.
224
00:08:27,374 --> 00:08:30,134
Well, in that case, in that case,
our roles are reversed, Adam.
225
00:08:30,164 --> 00:08:33,344
'cause the, one of the behind the
scenes things that I would never
226
00:08:33,344 --> 00:08:37,094
want anyone to see is my mental and
emotional breakdowns that Jessica
227
00:08:37,094 --> 00:08:38,954
has to hold infinite space for.
228
00:08:39,464 --> 00:08:43,094
That's probably something that you
wouldn't want to see unless you
229
00:08:43,094 --> 00:08:44,774
were really into sensationalism.
230
00:08:45,584 --> 00:08:49,184
I, I, I get it because as soon as I turn
this off, I have my mental breakdown,
231
00:08:49,424 --> 00:08:50,804
but she doesn't comfort me at all.
232
00:08:50,804 --> 00:08:51,494
She's parting it.
233
00:08:52,034 --> 00:08:52,484
Okay.
234
00:08:52,874 --> 00:08:53,294
She's so,
235
00:08:53,294 --> 00:08:53,624
yeah.
236
00:08:53,624 --> 00:08:54,254
You're unlucky.
237
00:08:54,254 --> 00:08:56,534
And that's, I won, I won the lottery.
238
00:08:56,714 --> 00:08:57,074
Yeah.
239
00:08:57,464 --> 00:08:57,584
Yeah.
240
00:08:57,584 --> 00:08:58,694
She is not my fixer.
241
00:08:58,754 --> 00:09:00,074
I'm actually like you, David.
242
00:09:00,074 --> 00:09:02,924
So I do have those little
mental breakdowns and it's like.
243
00:09:03,524 --> 00:09:04,034
Oof.
244
00:09:04,094 --> 00:09:07,394
And yeah, he has the mental
space for it, which is amazing.
245
00:09:07,394 --> 00:09:10,244
But then he has a house full of
those because most of our kids, we
246
00:09:10,244 --> 00:09:10,659
have a lot of kids.
247
00:09:11,414 --> 00:09:12,134
The same thing.
248
00:09:12,134 --> 00:09:13,214
Y'all have one, right?
249
00:09:13,214 --> 00:09:14,099
So we have, we have one.
250
00:09:14,199 --> 00:09:14,939
How many do you have?
251
00:09:15,104 --> 00:09:16,964
We have five, four in the house.
252
00:09:17,064 --> 00:09:18,624
And they're all for blended family.
253
00:09:18,624 --> 00:09:20,844
So the oldest one is out of the house.
254
00:09:20,844 --> 00:09:21,684
She's 26.
255
00:09:21,684 --> 00:09:24,264
But the four that are here,
they're all the same age.
256
00:09:24,264 --> 00:09:29,184
So we have two 19 year olds, girl, boy,
14 year olds and two 14 year olds boys.
257
00:09:29,184 --> 00:09:29,274
Oh, wow.
258
00:09:29,964 --> 00:09:32,514
And two are mine and two are his.
259
00:09:32,514 --> 00:09:36,864
And yeah, it's, um, it's
a chaotic little life.
260
00:09:36,924 --> 00:09:37,224
Yeah.
261
00:09:37,314 --> 00:09:37,464
But
262
00:09:37,464 --> 00:09:37,914
it's fun.
263
00:09:38,124 --> 00:09:40,014
Do you know how I said I
quit the show 40 times?
264
00:09:40,044 --> 00:09:43,644
I tried to quit being parenting,
uh, and doing all that.
265
00:09:43,644 --> 00:09:44,844
At least more than that.
266
00:09:44,844 --> 00:09:45,864
But it never happened.
267
00:09:45,864 --> 00:09:47,994
Like I, by law, I think
we have to stay here.
268
00:09:47,999 --> 00:09:50,934
So I have a, I have a
really good question.
269
00:09:50,934 --> 00:09:53,244
So, and I have to know this.
270
00:09:53,244 --> 00:09:55,054
So when y'all two write
together, who's the.
271
00:09:55,569 --> 00:09:57,129
Who's the chaos gremlin?
272
00:09:57,129 --> 00:10:01,449
Like who's the one hitting sends
on half finished drafts and
273
00:10:01,449 --> 00:10:02,679
saying, we'll fix that later.
274
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,589
I kind of have an idea of
who it is, but Oh, that's
275
00:10:05,589 --> 00:10:05,739
funny.
276
00:10:05,739 --> 00:10:07,329
Well, Dave's always a gremlin.
277
00:10:07,334 --> 00:10:07,664
That's,
278
00:10:09,104 --> 00:10:10,704
I, I prefer the term curmudgeon.
279
00:10:10,754 --> 00:10:11,424
Curmudgeon.
280
00:10:11,864 --> 00:10:12,424
I like it.
281
00:10:12,614 --> 00:10:12,904
Yeah.
282
00:10:13,599 --> 00:10:14,889
That's my, that's my spirit animal.
283
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:15,669
That's my total.
284
00:10:15,789 --> 00:10:16,059
Yeah.
285
00:10:16,414 --> 00:10:16,704
Yeah.
286
00:10:17,889 --> 00:10:19,479
I'm the half finished person.
287
00:10:19,479 --> 00:10:23,109
Like I'll start something or I'll do like
20 little things and then come back to it.
288
00:10:23,109 --> 00:10:23,409
So
289
00:10:23,469 --> 00:10:23,709
yeah.
290
00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:25,689
Her squirrel moments are, are
291
00:10:26,379 --> 00:10:29,589
very, I have many TikTok drafts
I have not posted yet for
292
00:10:30,044 --> 00:10:32,049
the, the role that we play often.
293
00:10:32,079 --> 00:10:33,339
'cause we're a partnership.
294
00:10:33,339 --> 00:10:36,879
Often she comes up with a
billion ideas and I have to be
295
00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:39,649
the one to put them, in motion.
296
00:10:39,859 --> 00:10:40,219
Yeah.
297
00:10:40,219 --> 00:10:44,479
And so I'm constantly putting things
in motion that I know aren't gonna
298
00:10:44,479 --> 00:10:46,579
go anywhere, but I'm like, okay.
299
00:10:47,014 --> 00:10:48,004
Whatever you need, you know?
300
00:10:48,004 --> 00:10:49,444
We'll, and now we're here.
301
00:10:49,744 --> 00:10:50,074
Yeah.
302
00:10:50,074 --> 00:10:50,524
Because this is right.
303
00:10:51,599 --> 00:10:51,719
I
304
00:10:51,719 --> 00:10:54,724
think one of, one of the best ways to
understand our dynamic is through two
305
00:10:54,724 --> 00:10:57,064
different personality assessment models.
306
00:10:57,064 --> 00:11:00,844
You know, one is the Enneagram
and one is the Myers-Briggs.
307
00:11:00,844 --> 00:11:02,464
Do you know anything about those systems?
308
00:11:02,469 --> 00:11:02,599
I do.
309
00:11:02,734 --> 00:11:04,264
I know about the Myers-Briggs.
310
00:11:04,324 --> 00:11:04,474
Yeah.
311
00:11:04,479 --> 00:11:04,489
Okay.
312
00:11:04,874 --> 00:11:04,934
So
313
00:11:05,954 --> 00:11:08,504
Enneagram is another typology,
which is really interesting.
314
00:11:08,504 --> 00:11:11,594
There's nine different types, you
know, but within that, an infinite
315
00:11:11,594 --> 00:11:13,724
world of complexity and nuance.
316
00:11:14,264 --> 00:11:14,444
Right?
317
00:11:14,444 --> 00:11:19,784
And so on the Enneagram, I'm a five, which
is the investigator, very mental type.
318
00:11:20,114 --> 00:11:20,204
Mm-hmm.
319
00:11:20,444 --> 00:11:23,384
You know, and with that comes a
very perfectionist, especially
320
00:11:23,384 --> 00:11:27,104
around language, because that's a
primary way that I express myself
321
00:11:27,104 --> 00:11:28,844
or identify myself in the world.
322
00:11:29,474 --> 00:11:32,904
So for me, there's a lot of
perfectionism, there's a lot of over
323
00:11:32,904 --> 00:11:35,514
fixation on the structure of language.
324
00:11:35,904 --> 00:11:38,784
Whereas Jessica's a nine, which
is the peacemaker, has kind of a
325
00:11:38,784 --> 00:11:43,164
more balanced global approach to
things, which is super helpful.
326
00:11:43,684 --> 00:11:46,504
So there's a balancing in terms
of, I like to really refine
327
00:11:46,504 --> 00:11:48,754
and refine, refine language.
328
00:11:48,844 --> 00:11:51,844
And Jessica has an overarching structural.
329
00:11:52,239 --> 00:11:54,789
Understanding of this is
what people need to hear.
330
00:11:54,789 --> 00:11:57,669
This is how you humanize language
so it doesn't sound like a robot.
331
00:11:58,089 --> 00:11:58,209
Mm-hmm.
332
00:11:58,299 --> 00:12:00,459
Uh, that's a nice way
we play off each other.
333
00:12:00,609 --> 00:12:00,789
Yeah.
334
00:12:00,789 --> 00:12:07,149
From the Myers-Briggs perspective,
I'm at INFP and she's an INFJ.
335
00:12:07,149 --> 00:12:11,559
These are two supposedly the rarest
types on the Myers Briggs system,
336
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,339
and it's, the real difference is
that last letter, the P and the J,
337
00:12:15,339 --> 00:12:20,919
she has the JI have the P, which is
perceptual, a feeling kind of intuitive
338
00:12:21,459 --> 00:12:23,769
relationship to information organizing.
339
00:12:24,369 --> 00:12:28,509
Whereas that J is judgment, I
forget, it's like the judging type.
340
00:12:28,509 --> 00:12:30,879
It's not like judgment in terms
of being critical, being a judging
341
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:31,899
person.
342
00:12:31,899 --> 00:12:32,259
Yeah.
343
00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:33,429
Or how you, it's just the way
344
00:12:33,489 --> 00:12:36,639
a cognitive cognitively
organized information.
345
00:12:37,359 --> 00:12:41,439
I've known a couple INFJs like her, and
they have the, it's this superpower.
346
00:12:41,439 --> 00:12:41,749
They have this.
347
00:12:42,414 --> 00:12:47,214
Spiritual, emotional, intuitive flow,
full, beautiful doubtfulness that I have.
348
00:12:47,214 --> 00:12:52,824
But that last letter, that J that she has,
allows her to condense it, consolidate
349
00:12:52,824 --> 00:12:57,804
it, and express it in a way that's super
organized and super easy to digest.
350
00:12:58,314 --> 00:13:03,594
I would give an organ to be able
to do what she does, but it's this
351
00:13:03,594 --> 00:13:08,634
critical piece in our relationship
where she's able to really hone and
352
00:13:08,634 --> 00:13:12,684
craft and sort of direct our efforts
in a way that makes it really.
353
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:13,989
Sweet.
354
00:13:14,199 --> 00:13:14,829
I like that.
355
00:13:14,829 --> 00:13:18,134
So there's no throwing laptops
across the room type of you ate?
356
00:13:18,154 --> 00:13:18,374
No.
357
00:13:18,374 --> 00:13:18,454
And
358
00:13:18,454 --> 00:13:20,409
you know what, I'm, I'm, if
you don't mind, I'm actually
359
00:13:20,409 --> 00:13:21,639
gonna quote you on that.
360
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:24,189
Put it in a Hallmark card
and I'm gonna give it to her.
361
00:13:24,339 --> 00:13:24,699
Yeah.
362
00:13:24,699 --> 00:13:25,089
Wednesday.
363
00:13:25,239 --> 00:13:25,299
You
364
00:13:25,299 --> 00:13:26,679
know, that's, um, because that was
365
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:27,669
actually really sweet.
366
00:13:27,669 --> 00:13:27,974
Yeah, nice.
367
00:13:27,974 --> 00:13:28,294
Those is
368
00:13:28,294 --> 00:13:28,734
really good.
369
00:13:29,079 --> 00:13:30,759
Yeah, those are really good assessments.
370
00:13:30,859 --> 00:13:32,089
Because you have to know, right?
371
00:13:32,089 --> 00:13:33,289
Like what, yeah.
372
00:13:33,289 --> 00:13:38,029
You have a relationship with your partner
and it's great, but when you start working
373
00:13:38,209 --> 00:13:41,209
together, it can get a little chaotic.
374
00:13:41,209 --> 00:13:42,589
I mean, I love working with Adams.
375
00:13:42,649 --> 00:13:42,709
Yeah.
376
00:13:42,709 --> 00:13:43,849
He makes me laugh all the time.
377
00:13:43,849 --> 00:13:45,139
So this is us.
378
00:13:45,139 --> 00:13:45,319
Perfect.
379
00:13:45,319 --> 00:13:45,349
Yeah, this is
380
00:13:45,349 --> 00:13:45,574
me all the time.
381
00:13:45,644 --> 00:13:46,489
This is us all the
382
00:13:46,489 --> 00:13:47,149
time, right?
383
00:13:47,209 --> 00:13:49,129
Um, I'm always rolling my eyes.
384
00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:49,729
I'm always like
385
00:13:49,729 --> 00:13:51,049
full, like I'm a lot.
386
00:13:51,079 --> 00:13:51,679
Yeah.
387
00:13:51,769 --> 00:13:53,479
And I'm normally very caffeinated.
388
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:53,929
Yeah.
389
00:13:53,959 --> 00:13:55,819
He's the, you know, he's the funny one.
390
00:13:55,819 --> 00:14:00,199
I'm more of the cynical one, you
know, and, and it, and we kind
391
00:14:00,199 --> 00:14:02,689
of balance off and we kind of
work together really well, but.
392
00:14:03,064 --> 00:14:05,824
Doesn't work for a lot of
people usually, so, no.
393
00:14:05,824 --> 00:14:08,224
Yeah, I, I see the good in everybody.
394
00:14:08,294 --> 00:14:11,054
You know, I love everybody
the first time I meet them.
395
00:14:11,414 --> 00:14:11,624
Oh, wow.
396
00:14:11,624 --> 00:14:15,994
Um, it, it takes a lot for a
person to make me go, okay, I need
397
00:14:15,994 --> 00:14:17,044
to stay away from that person.
398
00:14:17,044 --> 00:14:17,104
Yeah.
399
00:14:17,134 --> 00:14:18,274
'cause they're just too toxic.
400
00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:18,334
Yeah.
401
00:14:18,334 --> 00:14:20,674
It normally is like,
third strike, you're out.
402
00:14:20,704 --> 00:14:21,094
Okay.
403
00:14:21,094 --> 00:14:21,694
That's enough.
404
00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,384
I can't keep you around anymore.
405
00:14:23,384 --> 00:14:23,714
But now I
406
00:14:23,714 --> 00:14:24,824
gotta do that Meyers thing.
407
00:14:24,824 --> 00:14:26,144
'cause I'm probably just Myers
408
00:14:26,234 --> 00:14:26,504
Briggs.
409
00:14:26,504 --> 00:14:28,004
Meyer Briggs, just like Myers thing.
410
00:14:28,004 --> 00:14:29,144
The Myers thing, you know,
411
00:14:29,684 --> 00:14:32,204
the US Meyers-Briggs thing for, for lunch,
412
00:14:32,204 --> 00:14:37,274
because I'm probably aligned
more of, I mean, I don't know.
413
00:14:37,634 --> 00:14:39,794
I wanna say there's probably a
J there and it's probably, it's
414
00:14:39,794 --> 00:14:41,619
probably for the judgmentalness of
415
00:14:42,439 --> 00:14:42,659
my
416
00:14:42,659 --> 00:14:42,939
brain.
417
00:14:43,544 --> 00:14:43,604
Yeah.
418
00:14:43,664 --> 00:14:44,954
It's worth, it's worth doing.
419
00:14:45,044 --> 00:14:45,459
It's, yeah.
420
00:14:45,884 --> 00:14:46,304
Yeah.
421
00:14:46,304 --> 00:14:48,044
And, and the Enneagram too is fascinating.
422
00:14:48,044 --> 00:14:48,614
It's actually been helpful.
423
00:14:48,614 --> 00:14:49,154
I'm gonna have to check
424
00:14:49,154 --> 00:14:49,699
out that other one.
425
00:14:49,704 --> 00:14:51,164
I hadn't heard that one before.
426
00:14:51,169 --> 00:14:51,219
Yeah.
427
00:14:51,219 --> 00:14:51,339
Yeah.
428
00:14:51,539 --> 00:14:51,854
I, yeah.
429
00:14:51,854 --> 00:14:52,544
It's pretty awesome.
430
00:14:53,174 --> 00:14:53,414
Yeah.
431
00:14:53,984 --> 00:14:56,354
Believe it or not, I'm
actually very introverted, so.
432
00:14:57,509 --> 00:15:00,059
She's the extrovert when
it comes to the two of us.
433
00:15:00,059 --> 00:15:03,099
So, uh, but I do well when
it's when it's via Zoom.
434
00:15:04,644 --> 00:15:04,994
Great.
435
00:15:05,104 --> 00:15:05,594
Obvious.
436
00:15:05,594 --> 00:15:06,159
That's good to, I'm also,
437
00:15:06,849 --> 00:15:08,319
I'm also extroverted on Zoom.
438
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:10,029
It's amazing.
439
00:15:10,034 --> 00:15:11,499
You're you're good at this.
440
00:15:11,619 --> 00:15:13,629
I can, I can see you, right?
441
00:15:13,629 --> 00:15:16,299
I feel like you're here now.
442
00:15:16,299 --> 00:15:20,169
You're, you're co-writing is a brave move.
443
00:15:20,829 --> 00:15:20,949
Mm-hmm.
444
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:24,519
You know, I, I think most couples
can't even decide on a, a Netflix show.
445
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:24,759
Really.
446
00:15:24,764 --> 00:15:24,954
Yeah.
447
00:15:25,059 --> 00:15:25,389
Yeah.
448
00:15:25,489 --> 00:15:30,939
But I think that's, I I always liked
that y'all really came together
449
00:15:30,939 --> 00:15:34,779
and created something that I just
think is, is really, really cool.
450
00:15:34,809 --> 00:15:35,169
Yeah.
451
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:41,069
You've both talked about paradigm shifts
about beyond mono normative conditioning.
452
00:15:41,429 --> 00:15:41,519
Mm-hmm.
453
00:15:41,909 --> 00:15:45,149
What's one old belief that
still tries to creep up on you
454
00:15:45,149 --> 00:15:46,979
even after all of this work?
455
00:15:46,984 --> 00:15:47,094
Hmm.
456
00:15:48,094 --> 00:15:56,584
I would say one that's still hard to
deconstruct is around sacredness and sex.
457
00:15:57,179 --> 00:15:58,259
Sacredness and sex.
458
00:15:58,499 --> 00:15:58,949
Yeah.
459
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:59,519
That it's, what do you
460
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:00,659
mean by sacredness?
461
00:16:00,659 --> 00:16:02,129
Like mm-hmm.
462
00:16:02,459 --> 00:16:03,599
And it comes up a lot.
463
00:16:03,629 --> 00:16:06,959
And maybe it's also 'cause I'm seeing
it, you know, like there'll be kind
464
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:09,809
of themes that show up through the
years where like, oh, everyone's
465
00:16:09,809 --> 00:16:11,459
trying to deconstruct this thing.
466
00:16:11,459 --> 00:16:11,579
Gotcha.
467
00:16:11,579 --> 00:16:14,729
And then a few years later it's like
everyone's deconstructing this, you know?
468
00:16:14,734 --> 00:16:14,884
Mm-hmm.
469
00:16:15,419 --> 00:16:16,799
And I'm seeing a lot of people, right.
470
00:16:16,799 --> 00:16:21,389
And they're like, it's hard to say like,
oh, but the sacredness of sex between two.
471
00:16:21,444 --> 00:16:21,794
Right.
472
00:16:21,894 --> 00:16:25,619
And then it's like less sacred if
you share it with somebody else.
473
00:16:25,979 --> 00:16:26,219
Right.
474
00:16:26,219 --> 00:16:26,279
Yeah.
475
00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:31,559
And so we're helping people through that
of it's not necessarily less sacred.
476
00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:34,499
It can be sacred in different ways.
477
00:16:35,459 --> 00:16:35,639
Yeah.
478
00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:35,819
I'm
479
00:16:35,819 --> 00:16:37,169
actually learning that.
480
00:16:37,174 --> 00:16:37,384
Yeah.
481
00:16:37,389 --> 00:16:40,869
And being that we've been in it
for so long, so that's interesting.
482
00:16:40,869 --> 00:16:41,049
Yeah.
483
00:16:41,049 --> 00:16:42,939
That does creep up pretty often.
484
00:16:42,999 --> 00:16:46,989
Well, you know, we're, uh, oftentimes
raised and a lot of people are raised
485
00:16:46,989 --> 00:16:49,389
in a religious space that mm-hmm.
486
00:16:49,629 --> 00:16:53,439
Preaches, one-on-one
partnership, uh, or what you
487
00:16:53,439 --> 00:16:56,314
share with your partner, you
should share with anybody else.
488
00:16:56,534 --> 00:16:57,069
And, you know,
489
00:16:57,159 --> 00:17:01,509
procreation is what sexual, uh,
reasons are for, and this and that.
490
00:17:01,514 --> 00:17:05,024
And so we are raised to, to feel this.
491
00:17:05,444 --> 00:17:06,149
We share this.
492
00:17:06,794 --> 00:17:10,964
Sex with a person that we love
and adore, and this is the one
493
00:17:10,964 --> 00:17:12,284
person we're gonna do it with.
494
00:17:12,824 --> 00:17:12,944
Right.
495
00:17:12,974 --> 00:17:17,504
Um, and so I feel like non-monogamy
is really starting to reach, its,
496
00:17:17,804 --> 00:17:22,034
its mainstream now, especially after
the pandemic and people are starting
497
00:17:22,034 --> 00:17:24,914
to realize that, hey, it's okay.
498
00:17:24,914 --> 00:17:27,374
It's okay to love more than one person.
499
00:17:27,884 --> 00:17:31,874
I always liked the example that
people would throw out, which
500
00:17:31,874 --> 00:17:33,224
is, well, are you a parent?
501
00:17:33,284 --> 00:17:35,024
You have more than one kid.
502
00:17:35,474 --> 00:17:35,564
Right.
503
00:17:35,564 --> 00:17:37,964
You know, do you love one over the other?
504
00:17:37,964 --> 00:17:42,494
Obviously we have a ton of kids
and I love them all equally,
505
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:44,054
but all in different ways.
506
00:17:44,089 --> 00:17:44,579
Exactly.
507
00:17:44,679 --> 00:17:48,164
And I bond equally with them,
but all in different ways.
508
00:17:48,224 --> 00:17:48,524
Yeah.
509
00:17:48,614 --> 00:17:52,724
Um, and I don't think that
people can really apply that
510
00:17:52,784 --> 00:17:54,704
to romantic relationships.
511
00:17:54,704 --> 00:17:58,034
And I think that's where we get
caught up in that, that stigma.
512
00:17:58,574 --> 00:17:59,114
Yes.
513
00:17:59,424 --> 00:18:01,814
You know, everyone loves
to talk about jealousy.
514
00:18:02,219 --> 00:18:04,649
And I think jealousy
is really villainized.
515
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,839
But what I really want to
talk about is resentment.
516
00:18:08,589 --> 00:18:13,239
It's that that slow burn emotion that
ruins the vibe if you don't catch it.
517
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:17,959
How do you both spot it and how do
you deal with it before it gets toxic?
518
00:18:19,579 --> 00:18:22,099
You know, one of the systems that
we're both anchored in, in our
519
00:18:22,099 --> 00:18:24,829
work is the internal families work.
520
00:18:24,829 --> 00:18:29,749
And that's the difference between being
grounded in your sense of self, kind of
521
00:18:29,749 --> 00:18:34,549
your core essence versus a part, right?
522
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:40,859
Having a part of you that's carrying the
memory of something painful and sort of.
523
00:18:41,324 --> 00:18:44,564
Influencing your behavior in the
moment when something uncomfortable
524
00:18:44,564 --> 00:18:46,244
like resentment comes to the surface.
525
00:18:46,244 --> 00:18:49,154
So we're really teaching people
how to differentiate in our
526
00:18:49,154 --> 00:18:51,734
work between self and part.
527
00:18:51,794 --> 00:18:52,514
What is a part?
528
00:18:52,514 --> 00:18:53,084
What is a self?
529
00:18:53,084 --> 00:18:53,714
What do they look like?
530
00:18:53,714 --> 00:18:54,734
What do they feel like?
531
00:18:55,244 --> 00:19:01,574
One of the things that makes recognizing
parts easier is to listen to their
532
00:19:01,574 --> 00:19:06,284
stories, understand what the emotions
are that are attached to those, right?
533
00:19:06,284 --> 00:19:08,414
And then try to figure out
what are the needs underneath.
534
00:19:08,924 --> 00:19:12,554
And so usually resentment is
a really important signal.
535
00:19:12,824 --> 00:19:15,884
Kind of like on your dash
dashboard of your car, right?
536
00:19:16,484 --> 00:19:20,204
It's like, okay, the motor light
is on, resentment is flashing.
537
00:19:20,654 --> 00:19:22,244
What is it that we need to look at?
538
00:19:22,274 --> 00:19:23,954
There's a part that's speaking here.
539
00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:28,029
So for us, it's usually an indicator that
there's some kind of need underneath.
540
00:19:28,649 --> 00:19:31,589
The person's experience
that's not being addressed.
541
00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:37,289
So we're really using it as a way
to find ourselves to the need versus
542
00:19:37,349 --> 00:19:40,679
seeing resentment as fundamentally
problematic or something that we
543
00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:42,719
need to stop or shut down or fix.
544
00:19:43,259 --> 00:19:47,699
We really wanna invite it to the
surface and explore what is it trying
545
00:19:47,729 --> 00:19:49,529
to tell us about our lived experience.
546
00:19:49,619 --> 00:19:50,639
Mm-hmm.
547
00:19:50,884 --> 00:19:51,314
Right on.
548
00:19:51,554 --> 00:19:52,114
I like that.
549
00:19:52,184 --> 00:19:52,474
Yeah.
550
00:19:52,734 --> 00:19:58,379
And I would add that it's often pointing
to an longstanding dynamic where there's
551
00:19:58,379 --> 00:20:00,719
been an imbalance between two people.
552
00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,619
If someone feels like they've either
been over-functioning or, and the
553
00:20:04,619 --> 00:20:09,299
other partners been functioning,
or I've been absorbing things,
554
00:20:09,299 --> 00:20:13,409
or I haven't been speaking up
for my own needs and boundaries.
555
00:20:13,409 --> 00:20:15,509
So there's some kind of dynamic like that.
556
00:20:15,509 --> 00:20:18,149
And then therefore resentment is building.
557
00:20:19,169 --> 00:20:19,799
Wow.
558
00:20:19,889 --> 00:20:23,189
And I, I would figure it's rare
that new couples that get together.
559
00:20:23,879 --> 00:20:27,359
Automatically reach that space
where they're on the level,
560
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:28,619
they're both on the same level.
561
00:20:28,859 --> 00:20:32,039
I think that there's more push
and pull at times when it comes
562
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:34,089
to relationships normally.
563
00:20:34,089 --> 00:20:34,359
Right.
564
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,499
I mean, there's a lot of, you know,
one person takes the role a bit more.
565
00:20:38,499 --> 00:20:38,509
Yeah.
566
00:20:38,509 --> 00:20:40,779
And the other person gives
more and that sort of thing.
567
00:20:41,179 --> 00:20:42,709
And then over time they figure it out.
568
00:20:42,739 --> 00:20:44,719
Would you say as, as you found?
569
00:20:45,529 --> 00:20:45,709
Yeah.
570
00:20:45,739 --> 00:20:45,949
Yeah,
571
00:20:46,429 --> 00:20:47,359
of course.
572
00:20:47,479 --> 00:20:47,869
Right.
573
00:20:48,229 --> 00:20:51,709
Well, that's one of the misnomers
I think about the work on the
574
00:20:51,709 --> 00:20:55,339
surface is that everything's
supposed to be fair or balanced.
575
00:20:56,029 --> 00:20:58,459
And that's not usually
how relationships are.
576
00:20:58,459 --> 00:21:03,439
There's usually fundamental stark
ba imbalances in people's dynamics.
577
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:07,069
And so we're wanting to dismantle or
deconstruct this idea that things are
578
00:21:07,069 --> 00:21:12,579
supposed to be fair or 50 50 'cause
that's usually not how things work.
579
00:21:12,639 --> 00:21:17,139
And so what we're trying to figure out
is what are the actual needs that are
580
00:21:17,139 --> 00:21:20,829
trying to be met here in a relationship?
581
00:21:21,199 --> 00:21:25,189
And then try to leverage those needs
to create more of a sense of balance.
582
00:21:25,189 --> 00:21:29,329
It's not that you don't have a sense
of balance, but we're not trying to
583
00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:33,499
create sort of this, you do this,
this much, I do this this much.
584
00:21:33,529 --> 00:21:34,939
What are the lived experiences?
585
00:21:34,969 --> 00:21:36,409
What are the strengths and weaknesses?
586
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:39,949
What are the, what are the wounds
and traumas that we have that
587
00:21:39,949 --> 00:21:45,799
we're trying to heal together in
the context of the relationship?
588
00:21:46,199 --> 00:21:46,439
Yeah.
589
00:21:46,439 --> 00:21:50,549
You know, I, I think, uh, people
are, are much more fluid and there's
590
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:51,899
just so many different things.
591
00:21:51,899 --> 00:21:54,149
None of us can fit into that one box.
592
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:54,239
Mm-hmm.
593
00:21:54,899 --> 00:21:58,229
Um, and so yeah I don't know
if it's even really possible.
594
00:21:58,229 --> 00:22:01,319
I always wondered, and I'm kind of
curious on your thoughts as far as,
595
00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:06,599
uh, when it comes to relationships,
whether it be one-on-one or one-on many.
596
00:22:07,169 --> 00:22:12,284
What kind, you know, I. I know people
that are really big into the 50 50.
597
00:22:12,314 --> 00:22:16,404
We were at one point when we
got together of it being 50 50.
598
00:22:16,404 --> 00:22:19,254
Now we've reached that point where
it's like, it's give and take.
599
00:22:19,434 --> 00:22:24,344
Some days it's, it's 60 40, you
know, some, or is that math right?
600
00:22:24,374 --> 00:22:24,614
Yeah.
601
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:24,879
Okay.
602
00:22:26,834 --> 00:22:28,394
Better be that's off the cuff.
603
00:22:28,814 --> 00:22:32,414
You know, some days she's giving
more and I'm taking more, and,
604
00:22:32,414 --> 00:22:34,154
and some days it's vice versa.
605
00:22:34,184 --> 00:22:34,394
Yeah.
606
00:22:34,444 --> 00:22:37,774
You know, there's never really
days where it's 100% 50 50.
607
00:22:37,774 --> 00:22:37,984
That's right.
608
00:22:38,889 --> 00:22:43,564
But we give this
perception like it's 50 50.
609
00:22:43,894 --> 00:22:44,074
Yeah.
610
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:49,974
Would you say that in, in pretty
much most relationships, it's rare
611
00:22:49,974 --> 00:22:52,974
that 50 50 is actually a thing.
612
00:22:53,754 --> 00:22:56,484
I mean, that would take like real
organization, David, like you were
613
00:22:56,484 --> 00:23:00,924
saying, like, you, you take care
of these, I'll take care of these.
614
00:23:00,924 --> 00:23:01,674
You know what I mean?
615
00:23:01,704 --> 00:23:02,319
And we're good.
616
00:23:03,259 --> 00:23:03,549
Yeah.
617
00:23:04,809 --> 00:23:05,099
Yeah.
618
00:23:06,639 --> 00:23:10,569
I think a lot of times, well, yeah,
I don't think relationships are
619
00:23:10,569 --> 00:23:13,839
actually functioning in true 50 50 for
620
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:13,929
sure.
621
00:23:14,354 --> 00:23:14,644
Yeah.
622
00:23:14,754 --> 00:23:15,804
It's, that's hard.
623
00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:17,169
Yeah.
624
00:23:17,169 --> 00:23:18,909
Well, and and why is that the goal?
625
00:23:18,909 --> 00:23:20,469
I think we should even explore that.
626
00:23:20,469 --> 00:23:25,239
Ah, like what, you know, like, I think
it comes from gender equality being
627
00:23:25,239 --> 00:23:30,009
something that is still getting figured
out and has been very important.
628
00:23:30,009 --> 00:23:35,169
And then we're imposing, you know, an
important systemic concept of gender
629
00:23:35,169 --> 00:23:39,849
equality into the nuance of a day-to-day
experience between two partners.
630
00:23:40,419 --> 00:23:43,389
It doesn't translate in that way as 50 50.
631
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:47,919
And that becomes even more important in
the context of polyamory or ethical or
632
00:23:47,919 --> 00:23:52,359
consensual non-monogamy, because you're
not working in a dyadic framework often.
633
00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:56,079
And so one of the things that I
think has been helpful to understand
634
00:23:56,139 --> 00:24:00,639
for people as a litmus test for
balances, what is real capacity?
635
00:24:01,299 --> 00:24:01,839
Yeah,
636
00:24:01,959 --> 00:24:03,429
and capacity is a fluid thing.
637
00:24:03,429 --> 00:24:05,919
Kind of like what you were saying
in a moment ago, Adam, right?
638
00:24:05,979 --> 00:24:09,609
Some days my capacity's
higher than others.
639
00:24:10,209 --> 00:24:13,689
Some days my needs are different,
and so being able to think in
640
00:24:13,689 --> 00:24:18,519
terms of what's realistic, in terms
of what I can offer you, right?
641
00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:23,754
In terms of proximity, attention,
safety, respect, trust, express,
642
00:24:23,814 --> 00:24:27,879
desire, all of these fundamental
attachment needs that we have in
643
00:24:27,879 --> 00:24:30,489
relationship, those things are shifting.
644
00:24:30,579 --> 00:24:35,649
What I'd rather see is people be able
to know their own barometer and be
645
00:24:35,649 --> 00:24:41,319
able to communicate that in a way that
feels transparent and not dictated by
646
00:24:41,379 --> 00:24:43,839
emotional survival strategies, right?
647
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:47,829
I can authentically let you know what my
boundaries are based on my sense of needs.
648
00:24:48,504 --> 00:24:49,074
And there we go.
649
00:24:49,074 --> 00:24:50,514
Back to that question of resentment.
650
00:24:50,574 --> 00:24:54,384
You can often bring down the
temperature of resentment, right?
651
00:24:54,384 --> 00:24:57,444
When you have a really clear sense
of what your needs are and you know
652
00:24:57,444 --> 00:25:00,504
how to communicate them in a way
that's relational versus adversarial.
653
00:25:00,744 --> 00:25:01,074
Sure.
654
00:25:01,584 --> 00:25:02,604
Oh, now that's very well put.
655
00:25:03,114 --> 00:25:03,474
I'm sorry.
656
00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:04,164
Go ahead Jessica.
657
00:25:04,224 --> 00:25:10,824
Yeah, I think too, what often happens is
this whole idea of 50 50, even though it
658
00:25:10,824 --> 00:25:15,204
makes sense, it sets us up to be in an
adversarial position with our partner.
659
00:25:15,204 --> 00:25:18,144
Like, I'm doing my half
or you doing your half
660
00:25:18,174 --> 00:25:18,264
right?
661
00:25:18,264 --> 00:25:18,354
And
662
00:25:18,744 --> 00:25:21,144
then we're like keeping track in this way.
663
00:25:21,714 --> 00:25:26,754
And so what I find in the couples that
are actually thriving, um, is their
664
00:25:26,754 --> 00:25:31,374
approach is I am a hundred percent
responsible for this relationship.
665
00:25:31,784 --> 00:25:36,164
And so is my partner, but I am going
to show up with my a hundred percent.
666
00:25:36,224 --> 00:25:39,464
And then obviously I expect
that too of my partner.
667
00:25:39,464 --> 00:25:42,704
But that ebbs and flows like
we've already been saying.
668
00:25:42,874 --> 00:25:43,324
Sure.
669
00:25:43,474 --> 00:25:43,684
Yeah.
670
00:25:43,684 --> 00:25:47,804
And you know that can really apply well
to a one-on-one relationship, but when
671
00:25:47,804 --> 00:25:54,974
you open it up to a few more and you're
trying to keep as much of yourself in each
672
00:25:54,974 --> 00:26:00,314
and every relationship, and you're trying
to put your best in every relationship,
673
00:26:00,344 --> 00:26:04,804
even your relationships, I would think
wouldn't all equally be they're not.
674
00:26:04,804 --> 00:26:05,044
That's right.
675
00:26:05,289 --> 00:26:05,829
Be equal.
676
00:26:05,829 --> 00:26:06,604
You would have, yeah.
677
00:26:06,604 --> 00:26:09,094
You'd have one relationship
that was really like, you're
678
00:26:09,094 --> 00:26:10,474
putting way more into it.
679
00:26:10,474 --> 00:26:14,164
You'd have one relationship that's
probably a bit less, and even one
680
00:26:14,164 --> 00:26:15,454
that's even a bit less than that.
681
00:26:15,484 --> 00:26:17,584
'cause it, I mean, it takes,
it takes a lot out of you.
682
00:26:18,034 --> 00:26:18,274
Yeah.
683
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:18,469
It's,
684
00:26:18,574 --> 00:26:19,384
it's exhausting.
685
00:26:19,654 --> 00:26:22,714
That's really a good point,
especially for the ethical
686
00:26:22,714 --> 00:26:25,069
non-monogamous community because the.
687
00:26:26,309 --> 00:26:29,489
Partnerships or the constellations of
relationships that I see struggle the
688
00:26:29,489 --> 00:26:34,319
most are when people are trying to take
this static model of my a hundred percent
689
00:26:34,739 --> 00:26:37,469
and then do that here and then here.
690
00:26:37,889 --> 00:26:41,549
Whereas the partnerships that do
the best are the ones that have
691
00:26:41,549 --> 00:26:47,249
very specific needs that they're
recognizing can't be met by a certain
692
00:26:47,249 --> 00:26:52,799
partnership, and then they're using other
relationships to get those needs met.
693
00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:58,439
But it's very explicit and everyone
in that system is really understanding
694
00:26:58,739 --> 00:27:01,769
what the roles are, what the
needs are that are getting met.
695
00:27:01,769 --> 00:27:06,149
These are the constellations of
relationships that do the best, and
696
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:10,049
they're working within that framework
of, this is where I get these needs
697
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:13,799
met and my expectations are now
not on this other relationship.
698
00:27:14,689 --> 00:27:18,679
And so they're not trying to reproduce
the same amount of attachment
699
00:27:18,679 --> 00:27:20,929
or the same amount of connection
in all of the relationships.
700
00:27:20,959 --> 00:27:22,189
Not to say that you can't.
701
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:25,549
I'm just talking anecdotally
from what I've seen, right?
702
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:25,849
Sure.
703
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:26,719
Yeah, sure.
704
00:27:26,899 --> 00:27:28,279
That has to be really hard.
705
00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,309
I mean, we have a lot of friends that
are, well, we have a couple of friends
706
00:27:31,309 --> 00:27:37,699
that are poly and they just have like
one partner each, and I don't know
707
00:27:37,699 --> 00:27:40,519
how they make it work, but I just
sit back sometimes and I'm like, wow.
708
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:47,059
Because I've seen them, I've seen
the husband and the wife together be
709
00:27:47,059 --> 00:27:50,269
great, and I've seen the girlfriend
and the husband together and the
710
00:27:50,269 --> 00:27:53,899
wife and her boyfriend together,
and it's like, wow, you guys can
711
00:27:53,899 --> 00:27:56,209
make this all work works so well.
712
00:27:56,269 --> 00:28:00,949
I just I don't know, my, my brain hasn't
wrapped around that kind because I am
713
00:28:00,949 --> 00:28:06,859
the person that's like, well, if you're,
I want you to give me a hundred or
714
00:28:06,859 --> 00:28:09,349
50, but I only want you to give them.
715
00:28:09,394 --> 00:28:12,754
10. Like, I wanna be in control of that.
716
00:28:13,324 --> 00:28:16,264
I just want you to give them
like 10% of your, your emotional.
717
00:28:16,264 --> 00:28:18,514
And if I'm not feeling good,
it needs to be less than
718
00:28:18,514 --> 00:28:19,054
Yes.
719
00:28:20,134 --> 00:28:20,314
So
720
00:28:20,314 --> 00:28:21,904
that is very hard for me.
721
00:28:21,954 --> 00:28:24,074
It was something, well
I'm, we're not, he's gotten
722
00:28:24,074 --> 00:28:25,394
a lot, we're not Polly, but better
723
00:28:25,394 --> 00:28:25,844
every time.
724
00:28:25,844 --> 00:28:30,074
We have people that like, like
y'all selves, um, give me little
725
00:28:30,074 --> 00:28:33,404
tidbits and they, I kind of take
it all in because you're right.
726
00:28:33,434 --> 00:28:37,004
You know, everything I was
raised with is still in my brain.
727
00:28:37,004 --> 00:28:37,094
Mm-hmm.
728
00:28:37,334 --> 00:28:41,114
I have to learn how to, if I want it
to grow, if I want the relationship
729
00:28:41,114 --> 00:28:44,569
to grow, you kind of have to like
figure it out, somehow, whatever works
730
00:28:44,569 --> 00:28:46,024
for you, but figure it out somehow.
731
00:28:46,204 --> 00:28:46,504
Yeah.
732
00:28:46,504 --> 00:28:49,804
And a lot of the things that prevent you
from growing are a lot of insecurities.
733
00:28:49,834 --> 00:28:49,924
Yeah.
734
00:28:49,924 --> 00:28:52,084
And as you let them
go, you get to grow and
735
00:28:52,084 --> 00:28:52,564
resentment.
736
00:28:52,624 --> 00:28:53,134
Uh, yeah.
737
00:28:53,164 --> 00:28:53,584
Yeah,
738
00:28:53,734 --> 00:28:54,064
yeah.
739
00:28:54,154 --> 00:28:54,394
Yeah.
740
00:28:54,394 --> 00:28:55,684
It's crazy.
741
00:28:56,089 --> 00:28:58,699
And then you have the,
you're a family too.
742
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:00,469
I mean, you have five children.
743
00:29:00,619 --> 00:29:00,889
Yeah.
744
00:29:01,159 --> 00:29:04,399
So I see that with people,
couples that have children.
745
00:29:04,459 --> 00:29:05,509
It's very different.
746
00:29:05,509 --> 00:29:08,449
'cause you're like, this isn't
just, I'm getting less time.
747
00:29:08,689 --> 00:29:08,899
Yeah.
748
00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:10,909
With you as my romantic partner.
749
00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:14,749
It's like our family, our children
are actually getting less time
750
00:29:15,204 --> 00:29:17,739
and, and that becomes, an area.
751
00:29:17,739 --> 00:29:17,829
Yeah.
752
00:29:18,069 --> 00:29:23,039
That's really where I struggled because
it eventually, it became less of a,
753
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:24,779
well, I can't share you romantically.
754
00:29:24,779 --> 00:29:25,889
She didn't care about that.
755
00:29:25,919 --> 00:29:27,419
It was the time.
756
00:29:27,424 --> 00:29:27,714
Yeah.
757
00:29:27,719 --> 00:29:27,839
Yeah.
758
00:29:27,869 --> 00:29:28,379
Um, I'm,
759
00:29:28,439 --> 00:29:29,849
I'm very close to my kids.
760
00:29:29,849 --> 00:29:31,289
I even homeschooled them for a spell.
761
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,599
Like, I, I spend a lot of time with them.
762
00:29:33,629 --> 00:29:33,989
Yeah.
763
00:29:34,109 --> 00:29:40,229
And all of a sudden I was shirking time
with them to go take a girlfriend out.
764
00:29:40,289 --> 00:29:40,589
Yeah.
765
00:29:40,649 --> 00:29:43,019
And it didn't make me feel comfortable.
766
00:29:43,019 --> 00:29:45,839
I know it bothered her, but
it bothered me even more.
767
00:29:45,944 --> 00:29:47,879
Do you, do y'all see that a lot?
768
00:29:47,879 --> 00:29:50,399
Do you see where it's like
the family ones don't really.
769
00:29:51,194 --> 00:29:54,794
Like it's, it's easier for
single, single singles to be in
770
00:29:54,794 --> 00:29:56,864
a poly relationship or married.
771
00:29:58,484 --> 00:29:58,874
Yeah.
772
00:29:58,874 --> 00:30:02,714
Well, no, I, I definitely know married
couples that are thriving Polly.
773
00:30:02,814 --> 00:30:03,204
I see.
774
00:30:03,204 --> 00:30:06,894
The ones that are doing it the
best either don't have kids.
775
00:30:06,899 --> 00:30:06,939
Mm-hmm.
776
00:30:07,024 --> 00:30:11,964
Or their kids are older and out of the
house, or like older teens and they're
777
00:30:11,964 --> 00:30:15,774
not needing as much family intensive time.
778
00:30:15,924 --> 00:30:16,044
Yeah.
779
00:30:16,494 --> 00:30:21,174
And I see the families that are trying
to do poly and they have younger kids,
780
00:30:21,174 --> 00:30:26,024
or kids with special needs or higher
needs, it's harder to have more,
781
00:30:26,094 --> 00:30:28,344
other attachment based relationships.
782
00:30:28,344 --> 00:30:29,784
There just isn't the time.
783
00:30:30,504 --> 00:30:30,864
Yeah.
784
00:30:31,369 --> 00:30:31,729
Yeah.
785
00:30:31,854 --> 00:30:32,144
Yeah,
786
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:32,449
that
787
00:30:32,449 --> 00:30:32,689
makes a
788
00:30:32,689 --> 00:30:33,379
lot of sense.
789
00:30:33,499 --> 00:30:34,219
What now?
790
00:30:34,244 --> 00:30:34,904
In the,
791
00:30:35,084 --> 00:30:37,784
hold on, I'll add, unless
those relationships can
792
00:30:37,784 --> 00:30:39,554
come into the family system.
793
00:30:39,854 --> 00:30:41,894
Ah, that's when then I see it actually.
794
00:30:41,919 --> 00:30:42,119
Yeah.
795
00:30:42,139 --> 00:30:43,639
Oh, I've, I've seen that before.
796
00:30:43,844 --> 00:30:44,054
Yeah.
797
00:30:44,144 --> 00:30:44,594
Right.
798
00:30:44,594 --> 00:30:48,134
And we have a version of that
actually, where like, our partners
799
00:30:48,134 --> 00:30:52,784
are a part of our family system
and therefore it doesn't feel like
800
00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:54,704
it's taking away from our family.
801
00:30:54,704 --> 00:30:56,354
It feels like it's really adding.
802
00:30:56,984 --> 00:30:57,284
Yeah.
803
00:30:57,284 --> 00:30:59,324
And in our context to be transparent.
804
00:30:59,714 --> 00:31:03,344
Jessica and I do not
have a sexual or romantic
805
00:31:03,464 --> 00:31:04,004
part of our
806
00:31:04,004 --> 00:31:05,204
relationship anymore.
807
00:31:05,804 --> 00:31:06,014
Right.
808
00:31:06,014 --> 00:31:08,024
And so that dissolved
when we got divorced.
809
00:31:08,294 --> 00:31:13,164
Um, but, and that changes the way that,
at least for me my attachment system
810
00:31:13,164 --> 00:31:15,534
feels in relationship to Jessica.
811
00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:16,014
Yeah.
812
00:31:16,044 --> 00:31:16,224
So
813
00:31:16,284 --> 00:31:19,824
we actually, one of the interesting
things is when we were married, we were
814
00:31:19,824 --> 00:31:23,334
always talking about some point we're
gonna collaborate professionally and
815
00:31:23,334 --> 00:31:24,804
do this relationship work together.
816
00:31:25,134 --> 00:31:28,074
And that never happened until
actually we went through the divorce,
817
00:31:28,374 --> 00:31:32,844
spent time apart, and then came
back together as a new system.
818
00:31:33,534 --> 00:31:36,594
Uh, so it's been a really interesting
twist of fate in that sense, but it
819
00:31:36,594 --> 00:31:40,584
makes sense to me now in retrospect,
and this is actually one of my favorite
820
00:31:40,584 --> 00:31:44,904
iterations of our relationship, because
there's a certain ease and fluidity
821
00:31:44,904 --> 00:31:50,544
and functionality and harmony to
our system that wasn't present and
822
00:31:50,544 --> 00:31:52,344
the same way when we were married.
823
00:31:52,674 --> 00:31:53,184
So I think
824
00:31:53,184 --> 00:31:54,234
that is so cool.
825
00:31:54,234 --> 00:31:55,654
David, like, so beautiful.
826
00:31:55,654 --> 00:32:01,494
I think that's really awesome because you
guys went from doing this personal, very
827
00:32:01,494 --> 00:32:06,564
personal relationship to walking away
from it in, in that moment and being able
828
00:32:06,564 --> 00:32:11,094
to come back together and collaborating
on a whole nother relationship.
829
00:32:11,099 --> 00:32:11,179
Mm-hmm.
830
00:32:11,409 --> 00:32:11,699
Yeah.
831
00:32:11,704 --> 00:32:14,214
And, and it's nothing but positivity.
832
00:32:14,214 --> 00:32:14,784
I love it.
833
00:32:14,834 --> 00:32:15,824
'Cause I'm a positive guy
834
00:32:17,054 --> 00:32:19,604
and, uh, well, when we, when we
tell people what we're doing,
835
00:32:19,724 --> 00:32:22,904
you know, unless they're really
embedded in this subculture.
836
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:23,264
Yeah.
837
00:32:23,944 --> 00:32:25,264
There's a lot of double taking.
838
00:32:25,264 --> 00:32:28,384
There's like you're living with your
ex-wife, you know, and it's, it's
839
00:32:28,384 --> 00:32:32,014
interesting because right now in my
practice I have a lot of partners
840
00:32:32,014 --> 00:32:36,814
who are dissolving a lot of marriages
that are deciding to go their own way.
841
00:32:37,324 --> 00:32:41,134
And it's been really fascinating
to watch how the hardest part
842
00:32:41,134 --> 00:32:45,214
of that for them, aside from the
unraveling the attachment system.
843
00:32:45,214 --> 00:32:48,754
And what that can do to your nervous
system and your emotional experience is
844
00:32:48,754 --> 00:32:54,244
the family systems that they're embedded
in that are constantly deriding, their
845
00:32:54,244 --> 00:32:59,704
desire to have a conscious uncoupling,
to have a peaceful and harmonious and
846
00:32:59,704 --> 00:33:04,384
non-contentious disillusionment of
their connection, that people around
847
00:33:04,384 --> 00:33:05,674
them are saying, what are you doing?
848
00:33:05,674 --> 00:33:05,734
Yeah.
849
00:33:06,124 --> 00:33:11,344
Why are you still trying to have this kind
of intimacy, whether it's intellectual
850
00:33:11,344 --> 00:33:14,674
or circumstantial with your ex.
851
00:33:14,824 --> 00:33:14,914
Mm-hmm.
852
00:33:15,154 --> 00:33:15,304
Right.
853
00:33:15,304 --> 00:33:17,254
Or soon to be ex there's like this.
854
00:33:17,914 --> 00:33:23,134
Fomenting of conflict that's happening
in sort of the outer concentric circles
855
00:33:23,134 --> 00:33:25,754
of these people's inner relationships.
856
00:33:26,324 --> 00:33:29,384
And it's, it's interesting to watch
that because people don't have a model
857
00:33:29,384 --> 00:33:31,904
for this kind of thing that we've done.
858
00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:37,424
And I think it's one of the most powerful
sort of gifts that we're giving, um, is
859
00:33:37,424 --> 00:33:40,004
just to show that yeah, it can happen.
860
00:33:40,004 --> 00:33:41,594
It doesn't have to be that way.
861
00:33:41,814 --> 00:33:44,484
I think, uh, it's very black and white.
862
00:33:44,484 --> 00:33:45,144
Sorry, Jessica.
863
00:33:45,144 --> 00:33:45,354
Go ahead.
864
00:33:45,714 --> 00:33:47,394
I was gonna say, it's such a binary.
865
00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:49,074
You're either together or you're exes.
866
00:33:49,614 --> 00:33:49,854
Yeah.
867
00:33:49,854 --> 00:33:49,874
And that's,
868
00:33:49,874 --> 00:33:51,774
and that's the way we're kind of raised.
869
00:33:51,824 --> 00:33:55,634
You know, it's like there's no
in-between, there's no gray area.
870
00:33:55,634 --> 00:33:58,754
You're either, you know, you're
either with them or you hate them.
871
00:33:58,759 --> 00:33:58,989
Yeah.
872
00:33:58,994 --> 00:33:59,114
Yeah.
873
00:33:59,144 --> 00:33:59,744
Um, and they
874
00:33:59,744 --> 00:34:00,824
have to stay away from you.
875
00:34:01,044 --> 00:34:03,204
Which just so happens to
be the case for both of us.
876
00:34:03,324 --> 00:34:05,314
But it's not always the case.
877
00:34:05,314 --> 00:34:09,904
Like, um, there's a lot of people that
operate in a very gray area mm-hmm.
878
00:34:09,905 --> 00:34:12,574
Where it doesn't have
to be black and white.
879
00:34:13,054 --> 00:34:13,504
Um.
880
00:34:14,404 --> 00:34:18,964
I think especially when you're
co-parenting, you really have to
881
00:34:18,964 --> 00:34:22,324
play in that gray area as much as
possible for the sake of the kids.
882
00:34:22,534 --> 00:34:22,654
Yeah.
883
00:34:22,714 --> 00:34:27,604
Um, because, you know, even if there are
other partners around, you know, we, we
884
00:34:27,604 --> 00:34:30,994
are non-monogamous, our exes are not.
885
00:34:31,234 --> 00:34:31,414
Mm-hmm.
886
00:34:31,654 --> 00:34:34,174
And we still have to co-parent with them.
887
00:34:34,174 --> 00:34:38,284
And so we still have to continue on
this relationship with them, to work
888
00:34:38,284 --> 00:34:40,084
with them for the sake of our kids.
889
00:34:40,474 --> 00:34:45,194
And, uh, you know, some people get
along better than others and some
890
00:34:45,194 --> 00:34:46,724
people can really pull it off better.
891
00:34:46,724 --> 00:34:49,364
And I, I think that the fact
that you guys can work together,
892
00:34:49,364 --> 00:34:50,714
I think that's incredible.
893
00:34:50,984 --> 00:34:51,224
Yeah.
894
00:34:51,254 --> 00:34:51,674
You know,
895
00:34:52,034 --> 00:34:52,334
that's,
896
00:34:52,574 --> 00:34:56,474
that really says a lot about your
emotional intelligence, uh, because I
897
00:34:56,474 --> 00:34:59,679
think that there's, that's something
that's just missing oftentimes, yes.
898
00:34:59,989 --> 00:35:02,524
Well, you, you were asking earlier about.
899
00:35:03,454 --> 00:35:07,204
What are some of the hangovers
of the monogamous paradigm
900
00:35:07,294 --> 00:35:07,744
on
901
00:35:07,804 --> 00:35:08,824
our lived experience?
902
00:35:08,824 --> 00:35:14,614
And I think actually this is one of the
Le Lesser talked about facets of mono
903
00:35:14,614 --> 00:35:17,974
normative culture, which is that sort
of black and white reader together.
904
00:35:17,974 --> 00:35:18,394
We're not.
905
00:35:18,394 --> 00:35:22,324
And if we're not, then basically
there's this contentious
906
00:35:22,324 --> 00:35:23,674
relationship that we have.
907
00:35:23,674 --> 00:35:24,364
You're out.
908
00:35:24,574 --> 00:35:26,104
You sure you're in or you're out.
909
00:35:26,494 --> 00:35:30,304
And I think that's something that's
actually a hangover of mono normative
910
00:35:30,304 --> 00:35:34,834
culture as well, because people are
not as used to just not modeled.
911
00:35:35,014 --> 00:35:36,514
To be in the gray area.
912
00:35:36,514 --> 00:35:41,564
And this is really what I think the
culture is lagging in is this, how
913
00:35:41,564 --> 00:35:47,474
do we safely navigate the gray area
until a new paradigm can really
914
00:35:47,474 --> 00:35:50,084
solidify and emerge out of this chaos.
915
00:35:51,314 --> 00:35:51,914
Right on.
916
00:35:52,004 --> 00:35:53,144
That's very well put.
917
00:35:53,594 --> 00:35:54,134
Oh man.
918
00:35:54,374 --> 00:35:57,644
David feel so enlightened right now.
919
00:35:57,854 --> 00:36:00,654
So I gotta ask you, David, because
I'm already on you right now.
920
00:36:01,979 --> 00:36:07,019
This wonderful experience of non-monogamy.
921
00:36:07,019 --> 00:36:09,599
I mean, obviously you're,
you are working in the field.
922
00:36:10,319 --> 00:36:14,969
Uh, what would you say is your,
the biggest learning experience
923
00:36:14,969 --> 00:36:16,019
that you've come across?
924
00:36:16,019 --> 00:36:16,329
Like mm-hmm.
925
00:36:16,329 --> 00:36:20,069
Like, uh, in this entire time,
like obviously everything
926
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:21,059
is a learning experience.
927
00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:22,589
Every day you're learning something new.
928
00:36:22,649 --> 00:36:26,549
Every time you establish a relationship,
there's always something new.
929
00:36:26,999 --> 00:36:30,629
But that one monumental piece
that just kind of made you
930
00:36:30,629 --> 00:36:33,899
sit back and go, huh, okay.
931
00:36:33,959 --> 00:36:35,669
You know, this one's gonna
stay with me for a while.
932
00:36:36,539 --> 00:36:36,969
Yeah, that's easy.
933
00:36:37,869 --> 00:36:44,139
When we started to fall apart as a
married couple and I started to really
934
00:36:44,139 --> 00:36:50,799
exhibit extreme behavior, what I now know
was essentially a form of primal panic.
935
00:36:52,089 --> 00:36:58,899
It forced me to really confront attachment
and what my attachment system was doing.
936
00:36:59,514 --> 00:37:03,504
It wasn't until Jessica basically put
a hard, I'm not talking to you until
937
00:37:03,504 --> 00:37:08,304
you read the description of anxious
attachment style and the way that that
938
00:37:08,304 --> 00:37:10,674
manifests when it's totally dysregulated.
939
00:37:11,034 --> 00:37:11,184
Yeah.
940
00:37:11,574 --> 00:37:16,524
That I really started to have probably
one of the most sober reckonings of my
941
00:37:16,524 --> 00:37:22,794
life with my own nervous system, my own
organism, my own just totality of being,
942
00:37:23,724 --> 00:37:28,464
and that's been the thing that still I'm
in awe of in doing this work with partners
943
00:37:28,494 --> 00:37:35,364
is just how powerful the attachment
system is, what it can make you do.
944
00:37:36,414 --> 00:37:36,654
Right.
945
00:37:36,654 --> 00:37:42,304
When I was in restorative justice, a lot
of the cases that we couldn't touch were
946
00:37:43,294 --> 00:37:45,574
domestic violence or domestic abuse.
947
00:37:45,814 --> 00:37:51,964
You like where I was specifically, you
know, cops would want to refer cases to
948
00:37:51,964 --> 00:37:54,904
us and by law in this state, we can't.
949
00:37:55,804 --> 00:37:59,104
You know, it's interesting, you know,
hearing the stats coming back from
950
00:37:59,104 --> 00:38:03,334
police and what they were saying
is, you know, over 75% of domestic
951
00:38:03,334 --> 00:38:06,244
abuse cases deal with alcohol.
952
00:38:06,994 --> 00:38:07,204
Oh, wow.
953
00:38:07,234 --> 00:38:08,764
And so I'm someone who doesn't drink.
954
00:38:08,854 --> 00:38:12,394
And I remember thinking about these
extreme moments when I was going
955
00:38:12,394 --> 00:38:15,904
through primal panic and I was like,
wow, if I had been drinking in those
956
00:38:15,904 --> 00:38:20,404
moments, it would've been so easy to
have just done something absolutely
957
00:38:20,404 --> 00:38:22,144
catastrophic and irreparable.
958
00:38:22,594 --> 00:38:22,684
Sure.
959
00:38:22,994 --> 00:38:24,104
From one perspective.
960
00:38:24,524 --> 00:38:29,954
And so it's just that in and of itself is
just what the attachment system can make
961
00:38:29,954 --> 00:38:36,554
us do when we don't understand it, that
it's true influence on us as human beings
962
00:38:36,554 --> 00:38:41,114
with nervous systems, I think is still one
of the most awe-inspiring facets of this.
963
00:38:41,114 --> 00:38:41,474
For me,
964
00:38:42,284 --> 00:38:46,054
I love, you know, that can really apply
to a lot, you know, when people are always
965
00:38:46,054 --> 00:38:47,374
afraid of what they don't understand.
966
00:38:47,734 --> 00:38:51,664
Uh, and, and I think we run
into that a lot in this, uh.
967
00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:52,879
This arena.
968
00:38:53,269 --> 00:38:56,539
Jessica, I'm kind of curious about
this, about your answer on this one,
969
00:38:57,019 --> 00:39:02,929
you know, in, in your time, going
all the way back to 14 and up in
970
00:39:02,929 --> 00:39:05,629
that time, what was that learning?
971
00:39:05,689 --> 00:39:07,459
You know, what, how was
that learning experience?
972
00:39:07,459 --> 00:39:08,539
What was that number one?
973
00:39:08,539 --> 00:39:09,859
Just revolutionary.
974
00:39:09,859 --> 00:39:11,389
I got it.
975
00:39:11,389 --> 00:39:13,009
And this is gonna stay with me for life.
976
00:39:13,429 --> 00:39:15,289
I don't know if I have a number one.
977
00:39:15,709 --> 00:39:15,949
Really?
978
00:39:16,244 --> 00:39:16,534
Yeah.
979
00:39:16,534 --> 00:39:16,814
Really?
980
00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:17,419
Yeah.
981
00:39:17,419 --> 00:39:18,979
I don't think I have a number one either.
982
00:39:19,009 --> 00:39:19,429
Really?
983
00:39:19,429 --> 00:39:20,269
I have a lot.
984
00:39:21,469 --> 00:39:23,329
It's so, it's so white and black for me.
985
00:39:23,329 --> 00:39:24,319
Y'all are in the gray area.
986
00:39:24,319 --> 00:39:25,189
Yeah, right.
987
00:39:25,189 --> 00:39:26,374
It's okay.
988
00:39:26,374 --> 00:39:26,894
I like gray.
989
00:39:29,539 --> 00:39:34,059
I think there's something that's
matured in me, you know, is like,
990
00:39:34,389 --> 00:39:40,189
there's been there's a lot of moments
of identifying certain ways, being
991
00:39:40,189 --> 00:39:44,689
excited to identify those ways, feeling
liberated to identify those ways.
992
00:39:45,334 --> 00:39:47,614
And then realizing, okay.
993
00:39:47,614 --> 00:39:51,634
Just because that's who I feel
myself to be or how I identify myself
994
00:39:51,634 --> 00:39:53,764
doesn't mean that's always what I do.
995
00:39:54,244 --> 00:39:59,644
Because it's not always what's best
for even me or those around me.
996
00:40:00,124 --> 00:40:00,424
Right.
997
00:40:00,424 --> 00:40:04,024
I was joking with a client yesterday,
she's poly saturated at one.
998
00:40:04,114 --> 00:40:04,204
Right.
999
00:40:05,464 --> 00:40:08,824
And someone else earlier this week
was like, I'm poly saturated at zero.
1000
00:40:08,824 --> 00:40:09,214
You know?
1001
00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:09,454
Yeah.
1002
00:40:09,934 --> 00:40:13,724
So I think like, yeah, that would be one.
1003
00:40:14,084 --> 00:40:16,214
Well, you know, and I, it's
funny that you bring that up.
1004
00:40:16,214 --> 00:40:20,324
'cause when we were poly and I remember
trying to find different communities
1005
00:40:20,324 --> 00:40:22,634
and I think we were on Facebook
groups and things like that, and we
1006
00:40:22,634 --> 00:40:26,354
were trying to find more people like
us, and we were trying to get more
1007
00:40:26,354 --> 00:40:30,074
information, which, uh, one thing that
I ran into was a lot of people were not
1008
00:40:30,074 --> 00:40:33,014
very helpful with giving information.
1009
00:40:33,014 --> 00:40:35,624
Everything is, uh, Google it fool.
1010
00:40:35,714 --> 00:40:38,444
You know, it's like that
kind of attitude about it.
1011
00:40:38,814 --> 00:40:38,914
But.
1012
00:40:40,084 --> 00:40:44,644
We were trying to really find our
footing and we used to see people
1013
00:40:45,364 --> 00:40:50,914
who, it was almost their goal to
have as many partners as possible.
1014
00:40:50,944 --> 00:40:51,034
Mm-hmm.
1015
00:40:51,034 --> 00:40:51,094
Yeah.
1016
00:40:51,454 --> 00:40:55,054
And I mean, there was one
person that I, as ridiculous
1017
00:40:55,054 --> 00:40:58,834
as it sounded, 15, 15 partners.
1018
00:40:58,894 --> 00:41:03,064
And it just, I, I remember sitting
back going, how do you put yourself
1019
00:41:03,064 --> 00:41:05,194
in every single one of those?
1020
00:41:05,254 --> 00:41:05,644
Yeah.
1021
00:41:05,704 --> 00:41:09,779
And, and it was kind of cleared up
to me after a while, which was, you
1022
00:41:09,779 --> 00:41:13,659
know, they had different bondings
with each and every one of them.
1023
00:41:13,659 --> 00:41:13,764
Mm-hmm.
1024
00:41:13,844 --> 00:41:13,854
Yeah.
1025
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:18,389
And that was, there was no real
definition to their relationship.
1026
00:41:18,389 --> 00:41:21,809
It was just what worked, you know, and
this what, this is what works for us
1027
00:41:21,809 --> 00:41:25,539
and there's no real they're just my
partner and this is what we do together.
1028
00:41:25,939 --> 00:41:28,999
And so I kind of understood that, but at
the same time, I'm like, man, that just.
1029
00:41:29,584 --> 00:41:34,234
That is overly polys saturated to me
because I, I wouldn't have been able to
1030
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,874
handle more than one other relationship.
1031
00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:37,234
Yeah.
1032
00:41:37,294 --> 00:41:40,894
And I think the struggle for me
when I was poly was when I, I, I
1033
00:41:40,894 --> 00:41:42,904
had a girlfriend and I had my wife.
1034
00:41:43,624 --> 00:41:47,854
My primary relationship is really good.
1035
00:41:47,884 --> 00:41:47,974
Mm-hmm.
1036
00:41:48,434 --> 00:41:53,084
And it always has been, and we've
always had this thing figured out and we
1037
00:41:53,084 --> 00:41:55,094
don't have stress in our relationship.
1038
00:41:55,574 --> 00:42:00,374
But then I'm dating somebody where
it's starting to get stressful,
1039
00:42:00,794 --> 00:42:02,504
it's starting to get difficult.
1040
00:42:02,534 --> 00:42:07,154
I have to learn how to figure
this person out and what, what the
1041
00:42:07,154 --> 00:42:10,784
gives and takes are, and I have
to learn how to make this work.
1042
00:42:11,264 --> 00:42:15,224
And I'm like, I'm putting myself
through this stress and it feels so
1043
00:42:15,224 --> 00:42:19,634
unnecessary because then I gotta go home
to my happy relationship and go, ugh.
1044
00:42:20,459 --> 00:42:23,519
I'm exhausted from this side
relationship that I'm doing.
1045
00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:24,059
You know what I mean?
1046
00:42:24,489 --> 00:42:28,159
So the one other relationship for
me felt like saturation in and of
1047
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:32,239
itself, but I, I, I, I know that, that
people are on different levels, so
1048
00:42:32,629 --> 00:42:32,989
Yeah.
1049
00:42:32,989 --> 00:42:36,889
And probably the word the way
partners being used is different.
1050
00:42:36,889 --> 00:42:40,489
Like your kind of using it
like capital P partner, right.
1051
00:42:40,489 --> 00:42:42,169
Like full in relationship.
1052
00:42:42,169 --> 00:42:42,739
So yeah.
1053
00:42:42,769 --> 00:42:43,969
Two is plenty.
1054
00:42:44,179 --> 00:42:44,359
Yeah.
1055
00:42:44,779 --> 00:42:49,099
I'm assuming the person with 15 is
using, like, there's some lowercase P
1056
00:42:49,099 --> 00:42:53,479
partner, you know, someone that they see
once a month, once a season, you know?
1057
00:42:53,479 --> 00:42:54,139
Yeah, sure.
1058
00:42:54,139 --> 00:42:56,299
With people that they see more regularly.
1059
00:42:56,329 --> 00:42:56,629
Yeah,
1060
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:57,199
of course.
1061
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:57,499
Yeah.
1062
00:42:57,499 --> 00:42:58,339
No, I, that makes sense.
1063
00:42:58,339 --> 00:43:01,529
And thank you for enlightening me
there because, you know, I, I need
1064
00:43:01,529 --> 00:43:02,609
other ways to think of things.
1065
00:43:02,609 --> 00:43:04,769
I think that's why we're all here.
1066
00:43:05,099 --> 00:43:07,289
Uh, now, speaking of which.
1067
00:43:08,009 --> 00:43:10,559
You know, you guys have written
some pretty amazing books.
1068
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:12,959
I want to talk about this new
one that you guys have coming up.
1069
00:43:12,989 --> 00:43:19,389
'cause I know that it's not really
focusing on non-monogamy per se but
1070
00:43:19,479 --> 00:43:21,909
transforming the shame triangle.
1071
00:43:22,689 --> 00:43:24,729
Please fill me in.
1072
00:43:24,759 --> 00:43:28,089
Um, you know, I, I did, I did a little
bit of, uh, reading, which sent me,
1073
00:43:28,089 --> 00:43:33,319
I, I loved it what I saw, and I'm
really interested in reading the rest.
1074
00:43:33,659 --> 00:43:36,239
But if you could kind of break
it down for our listeners.
1075
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:37,499
What, what are we looking at here?
1076
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:40,294
Do you wanna start that
1077
00:43:40,674 --> 00:43:41,374
you can kick out?
1078
00:43:41,444 --> 00:43:41,734
Yeah.
1079
00:43:42,479 --> 00:43:43,589
You guys are total partners.
1080
00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:43,919
Look at that.
1081
00:43:43,919 --> 00:43:44,369
I love
1082
00:43:44,369 --> 00:43:44,429
it.
1083
00:43:44,434 --> 00:43:44,774
Mm-hmm.
1084
00:43:45,194 --> 00:43:52,109
So, you know, what we're really wanting
in our work is to give people what feel
1085
00:43:52,109 --> 00:43:57,329
like the best tools, the tools that are
most effective for creating lived change.
1086
00:43:58,409 --> 00:44:03,379
And so the things that we're noticing in
our work when we're talking about where
1087
00:44:03,379 --> 00:44:07,729
are people getting stuck in their process,
where are these places where consistently
1088
00:44:07,729 --> 00:44:13,369
we're seeing people are struggling,
plateauing, or just feeling like I'm
1089
00:44:13,369 --> 00:44:16,939
not getting to that place experientially
that I'm wanting to with intimacy or
1090
00:44:16,939 --> 00:44:19,159
connection or safety in my relationship.
1091
00:44:20,179 --> 00:44:23,989
And what we started seeing was there
is sort of this orbiting around the
1092
00:44:23,989 --> 00:44:28,219
concept of shame or the experience
of shame and starting to look at
1093
00:44:28,219 --> 00:44:31,699
the way that shame is this really
interesting and complex thing, right?
1094
00:44:31,699 --> 00:44:36,289
It's not emotion in and of
itself, but it employs or brings
1095
00:44:36,289 --> 00:44:41,119
in motivates motions, right?
1096
00:44:41,269 --> 00:44:42,289
In its service.
1097
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:47,149
So as we started to look at that and
see it as this linchpin upon which a
1098
00:44:47,149 --> 00:44:51,619
lot of people's processes was really
hinging, we started to become more
1099
00:44:51,619 --> 00:44:53,239
and more curious about it, right?
1100
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,129
And Jessica had the brilliant.
1101
00:44:55,504 --> 00:44:59,254
Sort of conceptual revelation, right?
1102
00:44:59,254 --> 00:45:03,484
That really, especially through
the IFS perspective, the internal
1103
00:45:03,484 --> 00:45:07,804
family systems perspective, that
what's happening is shame is
1104
00:45:07,804 --> 00:45:13,774
really working in tight conjunction
with several other parts, right?
1105
00:45:13,774 --> 00:45:15,874
So it's not just shame
really, that's working alone.
1106
00:45:15,874 --> 00:45:20,104
It's leveraging other internal
elements of our own lived experience
1107
00:45:20,104 --> 00:45:25,234
that really feel ubiquitous in our
work with individuals and partners.
1108
00:45:25,744 --> 00:45:30,094
And when she was able to make that
link with the drama triangle, which
1109
00:45:30,094 --> 00:45:32,824
a lot of people know in the world
of conflict resolution, right?
1110
00:45:32,824 --> 00:45:36,874
That this is a really effective,
very elegant, very simple, but
1111
00:45:36,874 --> 00:45:43,384
very accurate depiction of how
interpersonal dynamics play out.
1112
00:45:44,194 --> 00:45:47,374
Recognizing that that's actually
something that we've internalized
1113
00:45:47,374 --> 00:45:52,324
and is playing out within us in an
intrapersonal level was revolutionary.
1114
00:45:52,324 --> 00:45:54,484
We both sort of said, this is big.
1115
00:45:55,474 --> 00:45:59,884
This is like a Rosetta Stone of internal
conflict that we're both recognizing
1116
00:45:59,884 --> 00:46:06,244
needs to be addressed to really do the
interpersonal relationship work that
1117
00:46:06,244 --> 00:46:08,164
we're seeing people are stalling out on.
1118
00:46:09,244 --> 00:46:11,614
So it's kind of like we're
needing to take a step back.
1119
00:46:11,614 --> 00:46:14,674
It's almost like we've been skipping
over on some level, some of the 1 0
1120
00:46:14,674 --> 00:46:20,134
1 stuff, and so we're really wanting
to bring this to a larger audience.
1121
00:46:20,214 --> 00:46:24,774
In this sense it's, the book is not
directed to monogamous or non-monogamous.
1122
00:46:24,774 --> 00:46:24,864
Mm-hmm.
1123
00:46:24,864 --> 00:46:26,634
It's just this is fundamental
1124
00:46:26,964 --> 00:46:27,804
general audience.
1125
00:46:27,804 --> 00:46:28,224
Yeah.
1126
00:46:28,224 --> 00:46:28,234
Yeah.
1127
00:46:28,314 --> 00:46:30,744
To anybody who's really,
everybody's wanting.
1128
00:46:31,224 --> 00:46:31,884
Absolutely.
1129
00:46:31,884 --> 00:46:35,994
And who hasn't, to be honest, I don't
know any client or anyone personally
1130
00:46:35,994 --> 00:46:40,314
who hasn't had some relationship,
some intimate relationship with shame.
1131
00:46:40,414 --> 00:46:40,654
Sure.
1132
00:46:41,074 --> 00:46:41,344
Yeah.
1133
00:46:41,584 --> 00:46:43,504
So for us, it just felt primordial.
1134
00:46:44,074 --> 00:46:44,344
Yeah.
1135
00:46:44,404 --> 00:46:46,294
You know, I, I definitely, um.
1136
00:46:46,759 --> 00:46:53,269
When I read what I read, I could
relate to it and I could see initially
1137
00:46:53,329 --> 00:46:57,649
Jessica, when you, when you told me,
well, it doesn't, it doesn't not apply.
1138
00:46:58,019 --> 00:46:59,309
But it does apply.
1139
00:46:59,309 --> 00:46:59,369
Yeah.
1140
00:46:59,399 --> 00:47:00,059
You know what I mean?
1141
00:47:00,059 --> 00:47:03,239
And, and I was like, I didn't quite
understand what you were telling me.
1142
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,909
You were trying to give it to me
without, without giving me too much.
1143
00:47:06,389 --> 00:47:09,029
And then when I read it through,
I was like, oh, well this is,
1144
00:47:09,029 --> 00:47:10,619
this applies to everybody.
1145
00:47:10,619 --> 00:47:10,679
Yeah.
1146
00:47:10,709 --> 00:47:11,819
Every relationship.
1147
00:47:11,824 --> 00:47:11,954
Yeah.
1148
00:47:11,954 --> 00:47:12,394
It's for
1149
00:47:12,594 --> 00:47:12,794
everyone.
1150
00:47:12,794 --> 00:47:13,314
Everything.
1151
00:47:14,369 --> 00:47:14,429
Yeah.
1152
00:47:14,429 --> 00:47:14,549
Great.
1153
00:47:14,549 --> 00:47:18,779
And, um, you know, we, we see
and experience shame, uh, a
1154
00:47:18,779 --> 00:47:21,299
lot in non-monogamy obviously.
1155
00:47:21,304 --> 00:47:21,574
Yeah.
1156
00:47:21,689 --> 00:47:27,279
Um, there, there's a lot of ex
internal shame and external shame.
1157
00:47:27,279 --> 00:47:30,938
Um, and if there was an external
shame, I feel like we would still
1158
00:47:31,178 --> 00:47:34,658
feel internal shame for the fear
of what's everybody gonna think.
1159
00:47:34,748 --> 00:47:35,018
Yeah.
1160
00:47:35,023 --> 00:47:35,153
Yes.
1161
00:47:35,158 --> 00:47:35,408
You
1162
00:47:35,408 --> 00:47:35,738
know?
1163
00:47:36,228 --> 00:47:41,218
But I really, um, I'm really looking
forward to this now, Jessica, what.
1164
00:47:41,863 --> 00:47:43,513
What even brought this up?
1165
00:47:43,513 --> 00:47:45,163
Like what, what brought this out?
1166
00:47:45,163 --> 00:47:46,873
Like how did this even come about?
1167
00:47:47,443 --> 00:47:47,923
Yeah.
1168
00:47:47,923 --> 00:47:51,193
I was doing, you know, more
one-on-one work with people I had
1169
00:47:51,193 --> 00:47:54,793
known and even taught the drama
triangle for years and loved it.
1170
00:47:54,793 --> 00:47:58,423
And so for, if people aren't
familiar, it's the persecutor,
1171
00:47:58,813 --> 00:48:00,343
the victim, and the rescuer.
1172
00:48:00,343 --> 00:48:03,643
Those three archetypal
roles and positions.
1173
00:48:04,123 --> 00:48:05,743
Oh, that in conflict.
1174
00:48:05,743 --> 00:48:07,183
And we don't need three people.
1175
00:48:07,183 --> 00:48:10,513
It could be two people that are
jumping back and forth of being
1176
00:48:10,513 --> 00:48:14,083
in the victim position and you're
the persecutor and back and forth.
1177
00:48:14,083 --> 00:48:16,363
And then I'll apologize to rescue.
1178
00:48:17,683 --> 00:48:22,123
And as Dave said, it's so elegant
and effective and accurate.
1179
00:48:22,453 --> 00:48:26,713
And so then I'm working with people
more one-on-one of like what's getting
1180
00:48:26,713 --> 00:48:30,583
in the way of whatever it is, their
potential of what they want, their
1181
00:48:30,583 --> 00:48:33,673
career, family issues, relationship stuff.
1182
00:48:34,933 --> 00:48:38,503
And it would always come
back to an inner voice.
1183
00:48:39,163 --> 00:48:40,303
That was beating them up.
1184
00:48:41,033 --> 00:48:44,423
And so I hear them describe this
inner voice beating them up.
1185
00:48:44,933 --> 00:48:47,333
And I was like, oh, that's
an inner persecutor.
1186
00:48:47,873 --> 00:48:49,793
The inner villain, the inner bad guy.
1187
00:48:50,033 --> 00:48:50,123
Mm-hmm.
1188
00:48:50,693 --> 00:48:54,383
And it tends to speak to us in
second person, what's wrong with you?
1189
00:48:54,383 --> 00:48:57,043
How could you, you should
have what the, yeah.
1190
00:48:57,403 --> 00:48:58,843
And then I'd go, wait a minute.
1191
00:48:59,263 --> 00:48:59,773
Okay.
1192
00:48:59,773 --> 00:49:01,213
Who's this voice talking to?
1193
00:49:02,353 --> 00:49:05,203
And then I realized, oh, our
inner victim, that's shame.
1194
00:49:05,203 --> 00:49:09,433
It's the part of us that hears
our inner critic beating us up.
1195
00:49:09,613 --> 00:49:09,823
Mm-hmm.
1196
00:49:09,883 --> 00:49:14,503
And in first person goes,
you're right, I am broken.
1197
00:49:14,503 --> 00:49:15,643
I am a failure.
1198
00:49:15,643 --> 00:49:16,813
I am unlovable.
1199
00:49:16,813 --> 00:49:18,523
I'm not enough, I'm too much.
1200
00:49:18,523 --> 00:49:25,663
Whatever our specific story of like,
essentializing, totalizing our deficiency.
1201
00:49:25,993 --> 00:49:26,283
Sure.
1202
00:49:26,368 --> 00:49:27,658
So just that, right.
1203
00:49:27,658 --> 00:49:31,198
Working with those two parts is
like a part that beats us up.
1204
00:49:31,198 --> 00:49:34,378
A part that feels and
absorbs it is pretty intense.
1205
00:49:35,293 --> 00:49:40,423
But then there's these escapers right
parts that wanna rescue and go, I don't
1206
00:49:40,423 --> 00:49:44,983
wanna feel my shame or hear my inner
critic, so I'm gonna go escape that.
1207
00:49:45,493 --> 00:49:48,043
And we can escape in
several different ways.
1208
00:49:48,073 --> 00:49:50,053
We can try to over function.
1209
00:49:50,173 --> 00:49:54,793
I'm gonna achieve, I'm gonna over
caretake, I'm going to, you know,
1210
00:49:54,793 --> 00:49:57,343
have status, whatever it is.
1211
00:49:57,568 --> 00:49:57,988
Mm-hmm.
1212
00:49:58,368 --> 00:49:59,653
Or I'm gonna over function.
1213
00:49:59,713 --> 00:50:00,403
Under function.
1214
00:50:00,403 --> 00:50:03,643
I'm gonna zone out, I'm gonna
stream too much, or I'm gonna
1215
00:50:03,643 --> 00:50:05,413
smoke too much, or whatever it is.
1216
00:50:05,413 --> 00:50:10,813
That sort of like temporarily numbs
and avoids that feeling of shame
1217
00:50:10,813 --> 00:50:13,543
or hearing or inner critic, right?
1218
00:50:13,603 --> 00:50:17,143
Or we can project it out where
we get aggressive, right?
1219
00:50:17,143 --> 00:50:20,293
I don't wanna hear my own shame or
hear my own critic, so I'm gonna become
1220
00:50:20,293 --> 00:50:22,423
an outer critic and put it onto you.
1221
00:50:23,773 --> 00:50:27,463
Or we can get aggressive with ourselves
as a way of escaping where it's
1222
00:50:27,463 --> 00:50:33,643
more extreme behaviors, like risky
behaviors that are causing harm to us.
1223
00:50:34,693 --> 00:50:35,413
Wow.
1224
00:50:35,713 --> 00:50:40,273
What, and what I realized is there's a
lot of resources for these separately.
1225
00:50:40,443 --> 00:50:43,323
There's like alcoholism
or addiction, right.
1226
00:50:43,323 --> 00:50:46,623
Those are our escapers or
depression is even an escaper.
1227
00:50:46,623 --> 00:50:49,053
There's a lot of stuff for
that, but it's not connecting
1228
00:50:49,053 --> 00:50:51,003
it to shame and inner critic.
1229
00:50:52,083 --> 00:50:56,283
And if we don't work on those two
parts, we kind of only get so far.
1230
00:50:56,553 --> 00:50:57,963
And it really does apply.
1231
00:50:57,963 --> 00:51:03,723
I mean, that all applies to like my
first relationship and it was, we were
1232
00:51:03,723 --> 00:51:07,083
not swingers, we were just together.
1233
00:51:07,353 --> 00:51:07,803
Yeah.
1234
00:51:08,073 --> 00:51:10,113
There was cheating and whatnot for mis.
1235
00:51:10,118 --> 00:51:10,408
Yeah.
1236
00:51:10,413 --> 00:51:10,953
Yeah.
1237
00:51:11,133 --> 00:51:15,693
Um, and so a lot of that shame and
it does follow you through Yeah.
1238
00:51:15,843 --> 00:51:17,763
Relationships and relationships.
1239
00:51:17,763 --> 00:51:18,003
It's,
1240
00:51:18,113 --> 00:51:18,533
well, yeah.
1241
00:51:18,533 --> 00:51:18,893
Right.
1242
00:51:18,893 --> 00:51:22,943
And if I have too harsh of an inner
critic and shame when my partner
1243
00:51:22,943 --> 00:51:25,853
gives me feedback, I can't take it.
1244
00:51:25,913 --> 00:51:26,093
Nope.
1245
00:51:26,333 --> 00:51:26,543
Yeah.
1246
00:51:26,843 --> 00:51:27,053
Right.
1247
00:51:27,053 --> 00:51:30,773
I can't receive the importance of
the feedback they're giving me.
1248
00:51:30,773 --> 00:51:33,113
'cause it goes straight
into a shame response, which
1249
00:51:33,113 --> 00:51:34,943
then is a defense response.
1250
00:51:35,633 --> 00:51:35,693
Yeah.
1251
00:51:35,693 --> 00:51:37,673
So often that's what's
getting in the work.
1252
00:51:37,673 --> 00:51:40,673
Dave and I were really seeing, oh,
this is what's also getting in the
1253
00:51:40,673 --> 00:51:44,573
way our inner shame triangle is
getting in the way of relationships.
1254
00:51:45,383 --> 00:51:45,623
Right.
1255
00:51:45,623 --> 00:51:48,863
Or all of our escapers or
these codependent strategies
1256
00:51:48,863 --> 00:51:50,513
were stuck in with my escaper.
1257
00:51:50,513 --> 00:51:52,913
And your escaper are
codependent with each other.
1258
00:51:53,543 --> 00:51:53,753
Yeah.
1259
00:51:53,758 --> 00:51:58,193
And this is, this is really where you
start to get specific and nuanced in
1260
00:51:58,193 --> 00:52:00,413
sort of the importance of this work.
1261
00:52:01,073 --> 00:52:01,253
Right.
1262
00:52:01,253 --> 00:52:06,743
And being able to intersect
between interwork or inner work.
1263
00:52:06,863 --> 00:52:09,173
In the interpersonal work.
1264
00:52:09,713 --> 00:52:13,283
'cause when you're talking about conflict,
what you're trying to figure out is how
1265
00:52:13,283 --> 00:52:15,203
do we hold the hurt in our relationship?
1266
00:52:15,203 --> 00:52:16,673
So if I feel hurt by you.
1267
00:52:17,588 --> 00:52:18,758
How do I hold that?
1268
00:52:18,758 --> 00:52:20,138
How do I communicate that?
1269
00:52:20,618 --> 00:52:23,798
The flip side of that is
how do I receive your hurt?
1270
00:52:24,188 --> 00:52:24,458
Yeah.
1271
00:52:24,458 --> 00:52:29,018
And so what we're seeing is that flip
side, when partners are in the moment of
1272
00:52:29,018 --> 00:52:33,938
needing to be able to receive well the
feedback that they've been heard or had
1273
00:52:33,938 --> 00:52:39,098
an impact right on their partner, it's,
that's when the shame triangle starts
1274
00:52:39,098 --> 00:52:44,438
to kick in and it starts to inhibit that
capacity to take that feedback in, right?
1275
00:52:44,438 --> 00:52:47,348
That you've hurt somebody,
your behavior has had an impact
1276
00:52:47,348 --> 00:52:48,638
even if you didn't intend to.
1277
00:52:49,538 --> 00:52:53,138
And it's specifically the the shame
triangle dynamics that keep people
1278
00:52:53,138 --> 00:52:56,588
from being able to really take
that in because it's too painful.
1279
00:52:56,708 --> 00:52:56,858
Mm-hmm.
1280
00:52:57,098 --> 00:52:57,158
'cause
1281
00:52:57,158 --> 00:53:00,518
it's going right to that idea that
I'm a bad person, I'm a bad partner,
1282
00:53:00,788 --> 00:53:02,348
nothing I do is right.
1283
00:53:02,348 --> 00:53:02,588
Right.
1284
00:53:02,588 --> 00:53:03,788
I can't get it right.
1285
00:53:03,968 --> 00:53:04,058
Yeah.
1286
00:53:04,058 --> 00:53:06,683
Those kind of stories
that we start to say.
1287
00:53:07,238 --> 00:53:07,418
Yeah.
1288
00:53:07,418 --> 00:53:07,688
And you
1289
00:53:07,688 --> 00:53:10,808
really do see it and hear it in
a lot of different relationships.
1290
00:53:10,808 --> 00:53:11,468
Not only.
1291
00:53:11,963 --> 00:53:14,753
Not only in the ethical non-monogamy.
1292
00:53:14,813 --> 00:53:15,173
Yeah.
1293
00:53:15,233 --> 00:53:15,413
Yeah.
1294
00:53:15,413 --> 00:53:19,523
Well, and you know, for, I'm, I'm
a big believer in anytime we have
1295
00:53:19,523 --> 00:53:23,323
insecurities about things and, and
whatever comes up that seems negative,
1296
00:53:23,683 --> 00:53:25,003
I always wanna get to the root of it.
1297
00:53:25,303 --> 00:53:25,453
Yeah.
1298
00:53:25,483 --> 00:53:29,383
And, you know, you want to dig, dig, dig,
dig until you can get to the right spot
1299
00:53:29,383 --> 00:53:31,693
that says, this is why you have this.
1300
00:53:31,693 --> 00:53:31,703
Yeah.
1301
00:53:31,753 --> 00:53:33,253
This is why you're feeling this.
1302
00:53:33,583 --> 00:53:36,703
And essentially that's
what you guys have done.
1303
00:53:36,793 --> 00:53:37,063
Yeah.
1304
00:53:37,128 --> 00:53:37,828
You guys, that's amazing.
1305
00:53:37,828 --> 00:53:42,183
You guys have taken this, this
whirlwind of issues that, that we
1306
00:53:42,183 --> 00:53:45,333
see as people in, in regular life.
1307
00:53:45,903 --> 00:53:49,533
And you guys have dug down to
the absolute root of it, which a
1308
00:53:49,533 --> 00:53:51,333
lot of it revolves around shame.
1309
00:53:51,573 --> 00:53:53,258
And that internal voice, it really does.
1310
00:53:53,373 --> 00:53:54,873
My internal voice is my parents.
1311
00:53:54,983 --> 00:53:56,703
You know, it's just one of those things.
1312
00:53:56,708 --> 00:53:56,868
Yeah.
1313
00:53:57,333 --> 00:53:57,663
Yeah.
1314
00:53:57,663 --> 00:54:01,053
Um, so I find that incredibly interesting.
1315
00:54:01,053 --> 00:54:05,043
Now, as far as is the, has
the book been released yet
1316
00:54:05,133 --> 00:54:05,523
guys?
1317
00:54:06,318 --> 00:54:07,788
It's coming out on Halloween.
1318
00:54:07,818 --> 00:54:08,538
Halloween.
1319
00:54:08,538 --> 00:54:11,208
I knew it was, I knew I didn't
think it had, but I didn't
1320
00:54:11,208 --> 00:54:12,558
want to step over that either.
1321
00:54:12,918 --> 00:54:17,308
Uh, so your book is getting released
on Halloween, uh, this show will
1322
00:54:17,308 --> 00:54:21,688
actually be dropped the week before,
uh, that Sunday before Halloween.
1323
00:54:21,928 --> 00:54:22,738
Oh, nice.
1324
00:54:22,738 --> 00:54:23,248
Perfect.
1325
00:54:23,303 --> 00:54:23,483
Yeah.
1326
00:54:23,483 --> 00:54:23,813
Perfect.
1327
00:54:23,993 --> 00:54:27,678
So it'll be the, uh, the,
what is that the 26th?
1328
00:54:27,828 --> 00:54:28,038
Yeah,
1329
00:54:28,043 --> 00:54:29,088
yeah, yeah.
1330
00:54:29,088 --> 00:54:29,658
Well, perfect.
1331
00:54:29,658 --> 00:54:33,558
Well, people hear this and it's before
the 31st and they go to our websites.
1332
00:54:33,558 --> 00:54:39,048
There's a 20%, um, coupon directly for,
from the distributor to get the book.
1333
00:54:39,048 --> 00:54:41,088
So Oh, even get a little deal.
1334
00:54:41,178 --> 00:54:41,208
Okay.
1335
00:54:41,448 --> 00:54:42,558
Oh, look at that.
1336
00:54:42,638 --> 00:54:45,248
We'll have everything
that our listeners need.
1337
00:54:45,248 --> 00:54:46,988
It'll be there in the show notes.
1338
00:54:46,988 --> 00:54:49,298
I've already downloaded your
other book, so I'm just curious.
1339
00:54:49,298 --> 00:54:49,478
Yeah, she
1340
00:54:49,478 --> 00:54:51,548
was, she was listening to you narrate.
1341
00:54:51,578 --> 00:54:53,078
So we've been hearing you all morning.
1342
00:54:53,288 --> 00:54:53,468
You know
1343
00:54:53,468 --> 00:54:54,653
our voice Well, we do.
1344
00:54:54,653 --> 00:54:55,053
That's right.
1345
00:54:55,273 --> 00:54:55,933
Yes, that's right.
1346
00:54:57,353 --> 00:55:02,558
But so with the book releasing on
Halloween where can we see you guys?
1347
00:55:02,558 --> 00:55:05,408
Are y'all gonna have some book
signings coming up, or is there, uh,
1348
00:55:05,408 --> 00:55:08,348
what are the following events that
that'll be following the book release.
1349
00:55:09,308 --> 00:55:13,028
Yeah, so we're gonna do, the first
one's gonna be on the 28th here in
1350
00:55:13,028 --> 00:55:14,798
Asheville, which is where we're located.
1351
00:55:14,798 --> 00:55:17,888
There's a really sweet bookstore
downtown called Malaprops.
1352
00:55:17,918 --> 00:55:19,658
So on the 28th, we're gonna be there.
1353
00:55:19,898 --> 00:55:20,198
Okay.
1354
00:55:20,438 --> 00:55:22,838
Then we're gonna be in
Atlanta on November.
1355
00:55:22,868 --> 00:55:24,008
Is it the fourth or the third?
1356
00:55:24,008 --> 00:55:24,153
The fourth.
1357
00:55:24,153 --> 00:55:25,033
Tuesday the fourth,
1358
00:55:25,808 --> 00:55:26,048
yeah.
1359
00:55:26,048 --> 00:55:29,228
Cherish books in Atlanta,
which we're excited about.
1360
00:55:29,708 --> 00:55:33,398
And then skip a week and
the week of the, what is it?
1361
00:55:33,428 --> 00:55:34,508
The,
1362
00:55:34,513 --> 00:55:35,828
the week of the 17th.
1363
00:55:35,828 --> 00:55:36,518
17th
1364
00:55:36,938 --> 00:55:37,148
December.
1365
00:55:37,718 --> 00:55:40,418
We're gonna be in Cali, so
we're gonna be in the Bay Area.
1366
00:55:40,418 --> 00:55:43,688
We're gonna do a series of
events, kind of back and forth
1367
00:55:43,688 --> 00:55:45,818
between San Francisco and Oakland.
1368
00:55:46,358 --> 00:55:50,528
And that's gonna culminate in a day
long workshop for people that are
1369
00:55:50,528 --> 00:55:55,748
really wanting to take a, a deep
dive into this work on Saturday 22nd.
1370
00:55:56,498 --> 00:56:00,648
So anyone that's interested, I guess
we should put that on our website too.
1371
00:56:02,563 --> 00:56:06,253
It's gonna be, it's gonna be on my
website before y'all come on, right?
1372
00:56:06,253 --> 00:56:07,333
No, it's on my website.
1373
00:56:07,908 --> 00:56:08,088
Yeah.
1374
00:56:08,088 --> 00:56:08,448
People
1375
00:56:08,448 --> 00:56:12,558
can register or see all of the,
you know, bookstore signings
1376
00:56:12,558 --> 00:56:14,148
or the day long workshop,
1377
00:56:14,718 --> 00:56:18,558
which worth saying is www.jessicafern.com.
1378
00:56:18,828 --> 00:56:19,818
Yes, that's right.
1379
00:56:20,388 --> 00:56:23,928
It was gonna get dropped and now that I've
said it, I can like, uh, you know, post
1380
00:56:23,928 --> 00:56:25,368
it over and over again throughout the show
1381
00:56:25,908 --> 00:56:26,028
you go.
1382
00:56:26,028 --> 00:56:26,418
So that works.
1383
00:56:27,018 --> 00:56:29,748
Uh, well, I, I am just tickled
pink that y'all were here.
1384
00:56:29,748 --> 00:56:33,798
I am exceptionally excited for
the future of this new book
1385
00:56:33,798 --> 00:56:34,788
that you guys have coming out.
1386
00:56:34,788 --> 00:56:36,438
I'm looking forward to getting it myself.
1387
00:56:36,738 --> 00:56:36,828
Yes.
1388
00:56:36,978 --> 00:56:38,898
Jessica and David, you two are amazing.
1389
00:56:38,898 --> 00:56:42,708
Seriously, this was one of those
episodes that sticks with you equal
1390
00:56:42,708 --> 00:56:45,228
parts brain food and heart work.
1391
00:56:45,318 --> 00:56:45,948
I love that.
1392
00:56:45,953 --> 00:56:46,223
I love that.
1393
00:56:46,248 --> 00:56:46,818
Yeah.
1394
00:56:47,098 --> 00:56:49,648
We all brought our a hundred percent.
1395
00:56:50,458 --> 00:56:50,578
That's
1396
00:56:50,578 --> 00:56:50,668
right.
1397
00:56:51,683 --> 00:56:53,398
There's no 50 50 here.
1398
00:56:53,428 --> 00:56:53,668
No one.
1399
00:56:53,668 --> 00:56:54,653
This wasn't 50 50.
1400
00:56:54,653 --> 00:56:56,093
50 50. That's right.
1401
00:56:57,118 --> 00:56:59,053
Uh, that math don't be mathing, right?
1402
00:56:59,053 --> 00:56:59,423
That's right.
1403
00:57:00,508 --> 00:57:00,718
Yeah.
1404
00:57:00,718 --> 00:57:02,218
Thank you so much for having us on.
1405
00:57:02,218 --> 00:57:03,093
Yeah, it's so great to meet you.
1406
00:57:03,313 --> 00:57:04,648
You know, it's great to meet you
1407
00:57:04,648 --> 00:57:05,038
guys too.
1408
00:57:05,038 --> 00:57:06,748
And you know what, I've got your schedule.
1409
00:57:06,748 --> 00:57:07,888
I may pop up sometime.
1410
00:57:07,888 --> 00:57:10,588
I don't know, we like to travel,
so we may show up to one of those
1411
00:57:10,588 --> 00:57:12,498
events and get our book signed.
1412
00:57:12,528 --> 00:57:13,248
Yeah, that would be pretty.
1413
00:57:13,458 --> 00:57:15,678
And there will be more in 2026.
1414
00:57:15,678 --> 00:57:18,168
We're gonna be launching
more online courses and more
1415
00:57:18,168 --> 00:57:20,748
in-person, longer workshops, so
1416
00:57:21,948 --> 00:57:22,058
I love that.
1417
00:57:22,058 --> 00:57:24,138
You know, I feel like there's
so much that was unsaid.
1418
00:57:24,138 --> 00:57:26,808
I would love to have you guys
back on the show at some point.
1419
00:57:26,858 --> 00:57:29,678
With that said, thank you guys so much
for sharing your time, your insight,
1420
00:57:29,678 --> 00:57:33,968
and for helping us all love a little bit
better and communicate a little cleaner.
1421
00:57:34,418 --> 00:57:37,628
If you want to dig into more of
their work, grab Jessica's new book,
1422
00:57:37,658 --> 00:57:42,098
transforming The Shame Triangle, and
check out Poly Wise and Poly Secure.
1423
00:57:42,368 --> 00:57:49,338
If you haven't yet, we'll have
all their links at our website
1424
00:57:49,668 --> 00:57:52,213
at www.beyond-monogamy.com,
under the guest bio section.
1425
00:57:52,588 --> 00:57:55,978
And remember, you can catch Beyond
Monogamy with Adam and Pris every Thursday
1426
00:57:55,978 --> 00:58:00,718
on full swap radio.com, streaming at
one and 6:00 PM Central Standard Time.
1427
00:58:00,778 --> 00:58:05,158
Yes, and if you're loving what we do
and want to help keep the show running.
1428
00:58:05,478 --> 00:58:06,618
And keep me caffeinated.
1429
00:58:07,398 --> 00:58:09,468
Join our crew on Patreon.
1430
00:58:09,468 --> 00:58:14,808
We've got early access episodes, after
hours, clips, bonus mini shows, discord
1431
00:58:14,808 --> 00:58:19,008
chats, and probably some chaos that we
shouldn't put anywhere else, like before.
1432
00:58:19,038 --> 00:58:21,408
Uh, Jessica and David
was, I I was singing.
1433
00:58:21,413 --> 00:58:23,808
Yeah, I was singing, I was a songbird.
1434
00:58:23,898 --> 00:58:27,328
And that's what you get with the Patreon,
get to know me a little bit better.
1435
00:58:27,538 --> 00:58:31,628
So just, head over to patreon.com,
look up Beyond Monogamy with Adam
1436
00:58:31,628 --> 00:58:35,318
and Paris, or hit the link at our
website and you can pick your tier.
1437
00:58:35,318 --> 00:58:37,508
Join the fam and come hang out with us.
1438
00:58:37,688 --> 00:58:38,258
Yes.
1439
00:58:38,618 --> 00:58:40,868
Um, and also don't forget to
subscribe, share, and drop a
1440
00:58:40,868 --> 00:58:42,248
review wherever you're listening.
1441
00:58:42,248 --> 00:58:44,948
It really helps the show grow and
keeps this conversation going.
1442
00:58:45,128 --> 00:58:48,668
Yes, so big thanks to Jessica
Fern and David Cooley for
1443
00:58:48,668 --> 00:58:49,808
hanging out with us today.
1444
00:58:49,808 --> 00:58:51,218
Thank you so much.
1445
00:58:51,278 --> 00:58:51,608
Yes.
1446
00:58:51,968 --> 00:58:53,048
And, and and by the way,
1447
00:58:53,648 --> 00:58:53,898
thank you, Pris.
1448
00:58:53,993 --> 00:58:58,418
Um, you know, we, we can't afford our
therapists anymore, so I feel like it's
1449
00:58:58,418 --> 00:59:00,338
very important that we all become friends.
1450
00:59:00,748 --> 00:59:03,868
So that I can throw my problems
at you guys and feel better about
1451
00:59:03,868 --> 00:59:05,608
myself after 30 minutes or so.
1452
00:59:05,668 --> 00:59:05,938
Okay.
1453
00:59:05,968 --> 00:59:06,178
Yeah.
1454
00:59:06,178 --> 00:59:09,838
For every, every relational crisis, you
just have a podcast episode and come on.
1455
00:59:10,318 --> 00:59:11,248
I love that.
1456
00:59:11,253 --> 00:59:12,713
That's, that's perfect way for me.
1457
00:59:12,713 --> 00:59:12,993
Way do it.
1458
00:59:12,993 --> 00:59:13,258
That's right.
1459
00:59:13,258 --> 00:59:15,633
We're just gonna throw all sorts of
problems at you and we'll feel in it.
1460
00:59:15,633 --> 00:59:16,348
David, you feel What
1461
00:59:16,348 --> 00:59:16,828
is nap?
1462
00:59:17,338 --> 00:59:19,138
I'm not gonna hold you anymore, Dave.
1463
00:59:19,288 --> 00:59:20,248
I promise you.
1464
00:59:20,668 --> 00:59:23,698
And with that, thanks everybody
for listening and we will
1465
00:59:23,698 --> 00:59:24,988
see you guys next week.
1466
00:59:25,798 --> 00:59:25,858
Bye.
00:00:07,184 --> 00:00:10,664
Alright y'all, before we
dive in, a quick heads up.
2
00:00:11,954 --> 00:00:14,924
This show is raw, real, and
definitely not rated pg.
3
00:00:15,734 --> 00:00:20,474
We're talking about adult themes, sexual
content, and the kind of stuff you
4
00:00:20,474 --> 00:00:24,824
probably don't want blasting through your
speakers at work or around your kits.
5
00:00:25,424 --> 00:00:29,294
So grab some headphones, pour your
drink of choice and get comfy.
6
00:00:29,594 --> 00:00:35,804
Oh, and just so we're clear, we are not
licensed therapists, counselors, or sex.
7
00:00:36,224 --> 00:00:37,034
Couches.
8
00:00:37,694 --> 00:00:38,954
Sex coaches.
9
00:00:39,164 --> 00:00:41,174
Sex coaches, not sex couches
10
00:00:43,004 --> 00:00:47,264
or just a couple of people sharing our
lives, experiences and sexy adventures.
11
00:00:47,354 --> 00:00:49,244
An ethical non-monogamy.
12
00:00:49,514 --> 00:00:54,464
So with that, pull up a
chair and enjoy the show.
13
00:00:54,464 --> 00:00:54,554
And.
14
00:00:54,789 --> 00:00:57,789
Hello, and welcome to another
episode of Beyond Monogamy.
15
00:00:57,849 --> 00:00:58,329
I'm Adam.
16
00:00:58,329 --> 00:00:59,099
And I'm Pris.
17
00:00:59,469 --> 00:01:04,599
And today we're sitting down with two
of absolute legends in the world of open
18
00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:06,909
relationships and emotional intelligence.
19
00:01:06,909 --> 00:01:09,039
Jessica Fern and David Cooley.
20
00:01:09,309 --> 00:01:10,869
You might already know Jessica's name.
21
00:01:10,869 --> 00:01:13,479
She's basically the
Beyonce of polyamory books.
22
00:01:13,509 --> 00:01:18,009
Oh, she wrote PolySecure, the
PolySecure Workbook, Polywise, and now
23
00:01:18,009 --> 00:01:21,489
she's got a brand new one out called
Transforming the Shame Triangle.
24
00:01:21,909 --> 00:01:22,239
Yes.
25
00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:24,729
This woman is no joke guys.
26
00:01:24,729 --> 00:01:27,129
She's got a master's
in conflict resolution.
27
00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,969
She is a certified clinical
trauma professional.
28
00:01:31,494 --> 00:01:35,994
A trained internal family systems
practitioner and has over 25 years
29
00:01:35,994 --> 00:01:41,514
working with folks all over the world
on attachment trauma and non-monogamy.
30
00:01:41,844 --> 00:01:45,654
Basically, she helps people stop repeating
the same emotional patterns and start
31
00:01:45,654 --> 00:01:47,484
creating love that actually lasts.
32
00:01:47,664 --> 00:01:51,354
And then there's David Cooley,
who, let's be real, is the calm,
33
00:01:51,354 --> 00:01:55,794
grounded counterbalance to all
of us emotionally chaotic people.
34
00:01:56,034 --> 00:01:56,274
Yeah.
35
00:01:56,274 --> 00:01:56,284
Yes.
36
00:01:56,284 --> 00:01:56,519
Yeah.
37
00:01:56,694 --> 00:01:57,324
Just like me.
38
00:01:57,324 --> 00:01:57,714
Totally.
39
00:01:57,774 --> 00:02:00,624
He's a professional restorative
justice facilitator.
40
00:02:00,624 --> 00:02:04,064
A diversity and privilege
awareness trainer.
41
00:02:04,094 --> 00:02:04,154
Yeah.
42
00:02:04,154 --> 00:02:08,594
And the creator of the restorative
relationship conversations, which
43
00:02:08,594 --> 00:02:12,584
helps people turn conflict into
connection instead of World, world iii.
44
00:02:13,394 --> 00:02:14,174
Instead of what now?
45
00:02:14,264 --> 00:02:14,924
World War.
46
00:02:15,194 --> 00:02:15,824
I can't say it.
47
00:02:16,289 --> 00:02:16,299
It's
48
00:02:16,544 --> 00:02:17,864
World War iii.
49
00:02:17,864 --> 00:02:18,409
There we go.
50
00:02:19,454 --> 00:02:20,834
One of us can use that one.
51
00:02:20,894 --> 00:02:20,914
All good.
52
00:02:22,289 --> 00:02:26,459
So David's got that deep,
mindful approach that just makes
53
00:02:26,459 --> 00:02:28,169
you feel seen and sane again.
54
00:02:28,679 --> 00:02:33,509
Together they've shaped how we understand
attachment repair and the emotional
55
00:02:33,509 --> 00:02:37,199
side of non-monogamy, and they do
it with actual heart, not jargon.
56
00:02:38,099 --> 00:02:42,179
So today we're not doing the
basic what is polyamory thing?
57
00:02:42,299 --> 00:02:43,139
We're going deeper.
58
00:02:43,139 --> 00:02:45,629
The messy, the funny, the
uncomfortable, and the real life
59
00:02:45,629 --> 00:02:47,819
parts People don't usually talk about.
60
00:02:48,284 --> 00:02:51,164
Yeah, we're talking co-writing chaos.
61
00:02:51,374 --> 00:02:55,424
How Resentment is Jealousy's
Sneaky Cousin, and those weird
62
00:02:55,424 --> 00:02:57,194
little relationship experiments.
63
00:02:57,194 --> 00:02:59,624
That sound great in theory,
but go sideways fast.
64
00:02:59,774 --> 00:03:03,054
So grab your coffee, grab your
partner, and let's get Polywise
65
00:03:03,074 --> 00:03:04,694
with Jessica Fern and David Coley.
66
00:03:04,694 --> 00:03:04,994
That's
67
00:03:04,994 --> 00:03:05,414
right.
68
00:03:05,414 --> 00:03:06,644
Welcome to the show, guys.
69
00:03:06,704 --> 00:03:07,154
Welcome.
70
00:03:07,184 --> 00:03:08,084
I told you it was a relief.
71
00:03:08,264 --> 00:03:08,324
Oh
72
00:03:08,324 --> 00:03:08,864
man,
73
00:03:09,434 --> 00:03:09,824
I do.
74
00:03:10,184 --> 00:03:10,484
That was
75
00:03:10,484 --> 00:03:11,084
a long one.
76
00:03:11,084 --> 00:03:13,004
That was, I, I gotta admit
that was the longest one.
77
00:03:13,004 --> 00:03:15,644
It is because I was so excited to have
you guys, and I was like, that goes
78
00:03:15,644 --> 00:03:17,924
down in history for our best intros.
79
00:03:18,224 --> 00:03:18,524
That's right.
80
00:03:18,529 --> 00:03:21,614
That's, that's definitely the highest
the bar's ever been set in an intro.
81
00:03:21,704 --> 00:03:22,604
Well, so I, I
82
00:03:22,604 --> 00:03:26,114
figure in the very least, at
least the intro would be good
83
00:03:26,174 --> 00:03:29,624
if the rest of the show fails,
they can drop it from that point.
84
00:03:29,624 --> 00:03:29,864
So,
85
00:03:30,824 --> 00:03:32,354
and then go read your
book and That's right.
86
00:03:32,444 --> 00:03:32,864
That's right.
87
00:03:32,869 --> 00:03:33,299
There you go.
88
00:03:33,524 --> 00:03:33,914
That's right.
89
00:03:33,914 --> 00:03:36,134
That's gonna be the, it's gonna
go from the intro to the outro
90
00:03:36,134 --> 00:03:39,299
and it's gonna say, just read the,
you'll get everything from the book.
91
00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:40,099
All
92
00:03:40,979 --> 00:03:41,339
I love it.
93
00:03:41,399 --> 00:03:41,619
So,
94
00:03:41,999 --> 00:03:45,794
uh, you know, before we get started
into the talking points, which I have
95
00:03:45,794 --> 00:03:50,784
several I really want to familiarize
our audience, our listeners with not
96
00:03:50,784 --> 00:03:55,584
necessarily who y'all are as writers,
but maybe a little bit more personal.
97
00:03:55,854 --> 00:03:59,514
And if I could start with Jessica,
how, how did you find yourself
98
00:03:59,544 --> 00:04:01,344
in the world of non-monogamy?
99
00:04:02,034 --> 00:04:02,604
Yeah.
100
00:04:02,784 --> 00:04:05,034
As a professional or as personally?
101
00:04:05,184 --> 00:04:06,774
E Either or actually, or both.
102
00:04:06,774 --> 00:04:07,704
If we could, you know, I wanna
103
00:04:07,704 --> 00:04:08,634
know personally.
104
00:04:09,054 --> 00:04:09,594
Yeah.
105
00:04:09,654 --> 00:04:09,924
Yeah.
106
00:04:09,924 --> 00:04:15,504
I mean, personally it was like being
14 and kissing a girl, best friend
107
00:04:15,504 --> 00:04:19,074
with a guy at the same time, and
just being like, oh, this is a thing.
108
00:04:20,579 --> 00:04:20,869
Nice.
109
00:04:20,869 --> 00:04:21,029
Yeah.
110
00:04:21,234 --> 00:04:21,864
Yeah.
111
00:04:22,254 --> 00:04:24,189
I mean, sometimes it's
just as simple as that.
112
00:04:24,299 --> 00:04:24,589
Yeah.
113
00:04:25,209 --> 00:04:26,149
As simple as that.
114
00:04:26,244 --> 00:04:26,634
Right.
115
00:04:26,634 --> 00:04:29,334
And then there's, you know,
iterations of it throughout
116
00:04:29,334 --> 00:04:29,994
time.
117
00:04:29,994 --> 00:04:30,054
Yeah.
118
00:04:31,014 --> 00:04:31,344
And then
119
00:04:31,344 --> 00:04:33,774
eventually it led you to
your professional journey.
120
00:04:34,344 --> 00:04:35,064
It did.
121
00:04:35,064 --> 00:04:35,274
Right.
122
00:04:35,274 --> 00:04:39,174
And that really felt like it came to
me where I was working as a therapist
123
00:04:39,204 --> 00:04:44,964
with couples and in one week all of my
therapy couples clients brought to session
124
00:04:44,964 --> 00:04:46,794
wanting to open up their relationship.
125
00:04:47,634 --> 00:04:51,594
And even though personally I
had experience or known about
126
00:04:51,594 --> 00:04:54,774
it professionally, I was like,
oh, the only thing I know about
127
00:04:54,774 --> 00:04:56,334
this is that it's pathologized.
128
00:04:56,334 --> 00:04:57,354
Like what do I do?
129
00:04:57,924 --> 00:05:01,614
And so I really had to figure
out how to support my clients.
130
00:05:02,334 --> 00:05:03,054
Right on.
131
00:05:03,054 --> 00:05:05,214
Well, you know, moving over to David.
132
00:05:05,214 --> 00:05:06,174
What about you my man?
133
00:05:06,174 --> 00:05:09,899
I mean, so this world of
ethical non-monogamy, how
134
00:05:09,984 --> 00:05:11,034
did you find yourself in.
135
00:05:11,959 --> 00:05:16,939
Basically Jessica told me we were gonna
be doing it, so there's no other choice.
136
00:05:16,939 --> 00:05:17,059
That's,
137
00:05:17,269 --> 00:05:19,669
I found myself doing the
podcast for the same reasons.
138
00:05:19,819 --> 00:05:20,089
Yeah.
139
00:05:20,089 --> 00:05:22,459
I mean, not that Jessica
told me, but my wife told me.
140
00:05:22,609 --> 00:05:23,029
Yeah, that's
141
00:05:23,029 --> 00:05:23,389
right.
142
00:05:23,419 --> 00:05:29,269
No, she, in that same anecdote where she
was starting to get exposed to it through
143
00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:35,119
clients' inquiry, it became something
philosophically intriguing for both of us.
144
00:05:35,209 --> 00:05:39,139
And so that's something that we've
really connected on deeply is
145
00:05:39,169 --> 00:05:41,569
intellectual, emotional stimulation.
146
00:05:41,989 --> 00:05:44,599
Whenever there's something
that's intriguing to one, it's
147
00:05:44,599 --> 00:05:46,429
usually a crossover for both.
148
00:05:46,489 --> 00:05:48,169
And so we started to
really think about it.
149
00:05:48,169 --> 00:05:52,159
So we went into a deep dive of
what are the implications of it?
150
00:05:52,159 --> 00:05:55,189
What are the philosophical
principles and values that really
151
00:05:55,189 --> 00:05:57,709
feel compelling to us about this?
152
00:05:58,249 --> 00:06:02,569
And so I think it was about six, seven, I
don't know, kinda six month, eight month
153
00:06:02,569 --> 00:06:05,359
window where we started to really say.
154
00:06:05,944 --> 00:06:07,354
Is this something that we could do?
155
00:06:08,404 --> 00:06:08,854
Mm, right on.
156
00:06:09,064 --> 00:06:09,814
That's awesome.
157
00:06:09,844 --> 00:06:13,204
Yeah, we, we kind of did
that, that for a little bit.
158
00:06:14,554 --> 00:06:15,634
Yeah, you could say that.
159
00:06:15,979 --> 00:06:16,799
You could do that.
160
00:06:16,804 --> 00:06:16,834
Yeah.
161
00:06:16,894 --> 00:06:21,794
I, um, we started doing the poly
thing and I did not care for it.
162
00:06:22,304 --> 00:06:25,724
Well, so, because I was, so, I was 40.
163
00:06:25,814 --> 00:06:27,174
I was 40 and Yeah.
164
00:06:27,174 --> 00:06:27,629
You were in your forties.
165
00:06:27,734 --> 00:06:30,104
I was going through menopause.
166
00:06:30,344 --> 00:06:30,674
Yeah.
167
00:06:30,764 --> 00:06:34,844
I was about three hours away
from my kids and my husband.
168
00:06:34,844 --> 00:06:37,604
And it just was not
oof, wasn't a good time.
169
00:06:37,694 --> 00:06:38,204
No.
170
00:06:38,204 --> 00:06:40,064
Mentally a for me was not a good time.
171
00:06:40,064 --> 00:06:41,834
I had not been diagnosed.
172
00:06:42,284 --> 00:06:42,464
Um.
173
00:06:43,379 --> 00:06:45,989
So when I went to the doctor and
they told me, I was like, oh.
174
00:06:46,019 --> 00:06:47,819
I mean, I could tell that
my emotions were off.
175
00:06:47,819 --> 00:06:50,609
And so like, I was like, Ooh, we're
not doing this Polly thing anymore.
176
00:06:51,179 --> 00:06:53,129
I, on the other hand, had a
really good time as Polly.
177
00:06:53,969 --> 00:06:59,459
Um, you know, I, it, it really, I mean,
it served its purposes for us Yeah.
178
00:06:59,459 --> 00:07:03,659
In that it really helped us learn how to
communicate, which I think was incredible.
179
00:07:03,859 --> 00:07:08,419
'Cause I thought we could communicate
well before, and apparently we did not.
180
00:07:08,479 --> 00:07:08,779
Yeah.
181
00:07:08,859 --> 00:07:12,069
Yeah, I mean that's, we, we
definitely had our, our, uh, our
182
00:07:12,069 --> 00:07:15,699
wrestles with it and it's still
it's still in the air, which I love.
183
00:07:15,849 --> 00:07:16,059
Yeah.
184
00:07:16,064 --> 00:07:16,719
But yeah,
185
00:07:16,779 --> 00:07:17,859
you know, I'm not gonna.
186
00:07:18,939 --> 00:07:20,059
Guys, I'm not gonna hold you up.
187
00:07:20,224 --> 00:07:20,444
No.
188
00:07:20,664 --> 00:07:21,039
I'm gonna talk
189
00:07:21,039 --> 00:07:22,029
about my son full day long.
190
00:07:22,089 --> 00:07:23,469
Yes, you will.
191
00:07:23,469 --> 00:07:26,769
Jessica, I see your, your happy
smiling face in front of me here.
192
00:07:26,769 --> 00:07:27,879
I have a question for you.
193
00:07:27,879 --> 00:07:29,199
We're gonna kick this off real easy.
194
00:07:29,619 --> 00:07:34,239
If your partnership or collaboration
with David was a movie, what would
195
00:07:34,239 --> 00:07:37,479
be the behind the scenes moment that
never makes the trailer, but totally
196
00:07:38,409 --> 00:07:40,239
explains how you two work together?
197
00:07:41,824 --> 00:07:44,259
Oh my God, I need Dave
to answer this one too.
198
00:07:45,069 --> 00:07:47,169
Yeah, well, you guys are collaborative.
199
00:07:47,169 --> 00:07:48,019
I mean, yeah,
200
00:07:48,799 --> 00:07:49,399
yeah.
201
00:07:50,299 --> 00:07:54,649
Is it like us having these conversations
about big things like while making
202
00:07:55,039 --> 00:07:57,289
lunch and breakfast for our son?
203
00:07:57,294 --> 00:07:57,784
Yeah, could be.
204
00:07:58,514 --> 00:07:59,024
Could be
205
00:07:59,024 --> 00:07:59,704
part of it, yeah.
206
00:07:59,924 --> 00:08:00,344
Mm-hmm.
207
00:08:00,424 --> 00:08:00,704
Yeah,
208
00:08:00,799 --> 00:08:00,919
like
209
00:08:00,919 --> 00:08:01,879
a little rom-com.
210
00:08:02,524 --> 00:08:03,874
That would definitely be ours.
211
00:08:03,934 --> 00:08:04,054
Yeah.
212
00:08:04,144 --> 00:08:05,014
Or Rambo.
213
00:08:05,254 --> 00:08:06,184
I mean, one of them.
214
00:08:06,784 --> 00:08:07,084
Yeah.
215
00:08:07,084 --> 00:08:07,589
Well, you know, um.
216
00:08:08,504 --> 00:08:09,794
In our relationship.
217
00:08:09,844 --> 00:08:12,484
'Cause you know, everybody's gotta
have that balance in our relationship.
218
00:08:12,484 --> 00:08:14,704
I'm the, uh, the positive, happy one.
219
00:08:17,644 --> 00:08:19,324
Pause, right?
220
00:08:19,594 --> 00:08:22,454
Oh, I wasn't, if y'all were expecting
me to finish that I wasn't, I
221
00:08:22,454 --> 00:08:26,024
just, I would rather label myself
and you guys figure out the rest.
222
00:08:26,234 --> 00:08:26,354
Okay.
223
00:08:26,624 --> 00:08:26,984
That's right.
224
00:08:27,374 --> 00:08:30,134
Well, in that case, in that case,
our roles are reversed, Adam.
225
00:08:30,164 --> 00:08:33,344
'cause the, one of the behind the
scenes things that I would never
226
00:08:33,344 --> 00:08:37,094
want anyone to see is my mental and
emotional breakdowns that Jessica
227
00:08:37,094 --> 00:08:38,954
has to hold infinite space for.
228
00:08:39,464 --> 00:08:43,094
That's probably something that you
wouldn't want to see unless you
229
00:08:43,094 --> 00:08:44,774
were really into sensationalism.
230
00:08:45,584 --> 00:08:49,184
I, I, I get it because as soon as I turn
this off, I have my mental breakdown,
231
00:08:49,424 --> 00:08:50,804
but she doesn't comfort me at all.
232
00:08:50,804 --> 00:08:51,494
She's parting it.
233
00:08:52,034 --> 00:08:52,484
Okay.
234
00:08:52,874 --> 00:08:53,294
She's so,
235
00:08:53,294 --> 00:08:53,624
yeah.
236
00:08:53,624 --> 00:08:54,254
You're unlucky.
237
00:08:54,254 --> 00:08:56,534
And that's, I won, I won the lottery.
238
00:08:56,714 --> 00:08:57,074
Yeah.
239
00:08:57,464 --> 00:08:57,584
Yeah.
240
00:08:57,584 --> 00:08:58,694
She is not my fixer.
241
00:08:58,754 --> 00:09:00,074
I'm actually like you, David.
242
00:09:00,074 --> 00:09:02,924
So I do have those little
mental breakdowns and it's like.
243
00:09:03,524 --> 00:09:04,034
Oof.
244
00:09:04,094 --> 00:09:07,394
And yeah, he has the mental
space for it, which is amazing.
245
00:09:07,394 --> 00:09:10,244
But then he has a house full of
those because most of our kids, we
246
00:09:10,244 --> 00:09:10,659
have a lot of kids.
247
00:09:11,414 --> 00:09:12,134
The same thing.
248
00:09:12,134 --> 00:09:13,214
Y'all have one, right?
249
00:09:13,214 --> 00:09:14,099
So we have, we have one.
250
00:09:14,199 --> 00:09:14,939
How many do you have?
251
00:09:15,104 --> 00:09:16,964
We have five, four in the house.
252
00:09:17,064 --> 00:09:18,624
And they're all for blended family.
253
00:09:18,624 --> 00:09:20,844
So the oldest one is out of the house.
254
00:09:20,844 --> 00:09:21,684
She's 26.
255
00:09:21,684 --> 00:09:24,264
But the four that are here,
they're all the same age.
256
00:09:24,264 --> 00:09:29,184
So we have two 19 year olds, girl, boy,
14 year olds and two 14 year olds boys.
257
00:09:29,184 --> 00:09:29,274
Oh, wow.
258
00:09:29,964 --> 00:09:32,514
And two are mine and two are his.
259
00:09:32,514 --> 00:09:36,864
And yeah, it's, um, it's
a chaotic little life.
260
00:09:36,924 --> 00:09:37,224
Yeah.
261
00:09:37,314 --> 00:09:37,464
But
262
00:09:37,464 --> 00:09:37,914
it's fun.
263
00:09:38,124 --> 00:09:40,014
Do you know how I said I
quit the show 40 times?
264
00:09:40,044 --> 00:09:43,644
I tried to quit being parenting,
uh, and doing all that.
265
00:09:43,644 --> 00:09:44,844
At least more than that.
266
00:09:44,844 --> 00:09:45,864
But it never happened.
267
00:09:45,864 --> 00:09:47,994
Like I, by law, I think
we have to stay here.
268
00:09:47,999 --> 00:09:50,934
So I have a, I have a
really good question.
269
00:09:50,934 --> 00:09:53,244
So, and I have to know this.
270
00:09:53,244 --> 00:09:55,054
So when y'all two write
together, who's the.
271
00:09:55,569 --> 00:09:57,129
Who's the chaos gremlin?
272
00:09:57,129 --> 00:10:01,449
Like who's the one hitting sends
on half finished drafts and
273
00:10:01,449 --> 00:10:02,679
saying, we'll fix that later.
274
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,589
I kind of have an idea of
who it is, but Oh, that's
275
00:10:05,589 --> 00:10:05,739
funny.
276
00:10:05,739 --> 00:10:07,329
Well, Dave's always a gremlin.
277
00:10:07,334 --> 00:10:07,664
That's,
278
00:10:09,104 --> 00:10:10,704
I, I prefer the term curmudgeon.
279
00:10:10,754 --> 00:10:11,424
Curmudgeon.
280
00:10:11,864 --> 00:10:12,424
I like it.
281
00:10:12,614 --> 00:10:12,904
Yeah.
282
00:10:13,599 --> 00:10:14,889
That's my, that's my spirit animal.
283
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:15,669
That's my total.
284
00:10:15,789 --> 00:10:16,059
Yeah.
285
00:10:16,414 --> 00:10:16,704
Yeah.
286
00:10:17,889 --> 00:10:19,479
I'm the half finished person.
287
00:10:19,479 --> 00:10:23,109
Like I'll start something or I'll do like
20 little things and then come back to it.
288
00:10:23,109 --> 00:10:23,409
So
289
00:10:23,469 --> 00:10:23,709
yeah.
290
00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:25,689
Her squirrel moments are, are
291
00:10:26,379 --> 00:10:29,589
very, I have many TikTok drafts
I have not posted yet for
292
00:10:30,044 --> 00:10:32,049
the, the role that we play often.
293
00:10:32,079 --> 00:10:33,339
'cause we're a partnership.
294
00:10:33,339 --> 00:10:36,879
Often she comes up with a
billion ideas and I have to be
295
00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:39,649
the one to put them, in motion.
296
00:10:39,859 --> 00:10:40,219
Yeah.
297
00:10:40,219 --> 00:10:44,479
And so I'm constantly putting things
in motion that I know aren't gonna
298
00:10:44,479 --> 00:10:46,579
go anywhere, but I'm like, okay.
299
00:10:47,014 --> 00:10:48,004
Whatever you need, you know?
300
00:10:48,004 --> 00:10:49,444
We'll, and now we're here.
301
00:10:49,744 --> 00:10:50,074
Yeah.
302
00:10:50,074 --> 00:10:50,524
Because this is right.
303
00:10:51,599 --> 00:10:51,719
I
304
00:10:51,719 --> 00:10:54,724
think one of, one of the best ways to
understand our dynamic is through two
305
00:10:54,724 --> 00:10:57,064
different personality assessment models.
306
00:10:57,064 --> 00:11:00,844
You know, one is the Enneagram
and one is the Myers-Briggs.
307
00:11:00,844 --> 00:11:02,464
Do you know anything about those systems?
308
00:11:02,469 --> 00:11:02,599
I do.
309
00:11:02,734 --> 00:11:04,264
I know about the Myers-Briggs.
310
00:11:04,324 --> 00:11:04,474
Yeah.
311
00:11:04,479 --> 00:11:04,489
Okay.
312
00:11:04,874 --> 00:11:04,934
So
313
00:11:05,954 --> 00:11:08,504
Enneagram is another typology,
which is really interesting.
314
00:11:08,504 --> 00:11:11,594
There's nine different types, you
know, but within that, an infinite
315
00:11:11,594 --> 00:11:13,724
world of complexity and nuance.
316
00:11:14,264 --> 00:11:14,444
Right?
317
00:11:14,444 --> 00:11:19,784
And so on the Enneagram, I'm a five, which
is the investigator, very mental type.
318
00:11:20,114 --> 00:11:20,204
Mm-hmm.
319
00:11:20,444 --> 00:11:23,384
You know, and with that comes a
very perfectionist, especially
320
00:11:23,384 --> 00:11:27,104
around language, because that's a
primary way that I express myself
321
00:11:27,104 --> 00:11:28,844
or identify myself in the world.
322
00:11:29,474 --> 00:11:32,904
So for me, there's a lot of
perfectionism, there's a lot of over
323
00:11:32,904 --> 00:11:35,514
fixation on the structure of language.
324
00:11:35,904 --> 00:11:38,784
Whereas Jessica's a nine, which
is the peacemaker, has kind of a
325
00:11:38,784 --> 00:11:43,164
more balanced global approach to
things, which is super helpful.
326
00:11:43,684 --> 00:11:46,504
So there's a balancing in terms
of, I like to really refine
327
00:11:46,504 --> 00:11:48,754
and refine, refine language.
328
00:11:48,844 --> 00:11:51,844
And Jessica has an overarching structural.
329
00:11:52,239 --> 00:11:54,789
Understanding of this is
what people need to hear.
330
00:11:54,789 --> 00:11:57,669
This is how you humanize language
so it doesn't sound like a robot.
331
00:11:58,089 --> 00:11:58,209
Mm-hmm.
332
00:11:58,299 --> 00:12:00,459
Uh, that's a nice way
we play off each other.
333
00:12:00,609 --> 00:12:00,789
Yeah.
334
00:12:00,789 --> 00:12:07,149
From the Myers-Briggs perspective,
I'm at INFP and she's an INFJ.
335
00:12:07,149 --> 00:12:11,559
These are two supposedly the rarest
types on the Myers Briggs system,
336
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,339
and it's, the real difference is
that last letter, the P and the J,
337
00:12:15,339 --> 00:12:20,919
she has the JI have the P, which is
perceptual, a feeling kind of intuitive
338
00:12:21,459 --> 00:12:23,769
relationship to information organizing.
339
00:12:24,369 --> 00:12:28,509
Whereas that J is judgment, I
forget, it's like the judging type.
340
00:12:28,509 --> 00:12:30,879
It's not like judgment in terms
of being critical, being a judging
341
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:31,899
person.
342
00:12:31,899 --> 00:12:32,259
Yeah.
343
00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:33,429
Or how you, it's just the way
344
00:12:33,489 --> 00:12:36,639
a cognitive cognitively
organized information.
345
00:12:37,359 --> 00:12:41,439
I've known a couple INFJs like her, and
they have the, it's this superpower.
346
00:12:41,439 --> 00:12:41,749
They have this.
347
00:12:42,414 --> 00:12:47,214
Spiritual, emotional, intuitive flow,
full, beautiful doubtfulness that I have.
348
00:12:47,214 --> 00:12:52,824
But that last letter, that J that she has,
allows her to condense it, consolidate
349
00:12:52,824 --> 00:12:57,804
it, and express it in a way that's super
organized and super easy to digest.
350
00:12:58,314 --> 00:13:03,594
I would give an organ to be able
to do what she does, but it's this
351
00:13:03,594 --> 00:13:08,634
critical piece in our relationship
where she's able to really hone and
352
00:13:08,634 --> 00:13:12,684
craft and sort of direct our efforts
in a way that makes it really.
353
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:13,989
Sweet.
354
00:13:14,199 --> 00:13:14,829
I like that.
355
00:13:14,829 --> 00:13:18,134
So there's no throwing laptops
across the room type of you ate?
356
00:13:18,154 --> 00:13:18,374
No.
357
00:13:18,374 --> 00:13:18,454
And
358
00:13:18,454 --> 00:13:20,409
you know what, I'm, I'm, if
you don't mind, I'm actually
359
00:13:20,409 --> 00:13:21,639
gonna quote you on that.
360
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:24,189
Put it in a Hallmark card
and I'm gonna give it to her.
361
00:13:24,339 --> 00:13:24,699
Yeah.
362
00:13:24,699 --> 00:13:25,089
Wednesday.
363
00:13:25,239 --> 00:13:25,299
You
364
00:13:25,299 --> 00:13:26,679
know, that's, um, because that was
365
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:27,669
actually really sweet.
366
00:13:27,669 --> 00:13:27,974
Yeah, nice.
367
00:13:27,974 --> 00:13:28,294
Those is
368
00:13:28,294 --> 00:13:28,734
really good.
369
00:13:29,079 --> 00:13:30,759
Yeah, those are really good assessments.
370
00:13:30,859 --> 00:13:32,089
Because you have to know, right?
371
00:13:32,089 --> 00:13:33,289
Like what, yeah.
372
00:13:33,289 --> 00:13:38,029
You have a relationship with your partner
and it's great, but when you start working
373
00:13:38,209 --> 00:13:41,209
together, it can get a little chaotic.
374
00:13:41,209 --> 00:13:42,589
I mean, I love working with Adams.
375
00:13:42,649 --> 00:13:42,709
Yeah.
376
00:13:42,709 --> 00:13:43,849
He makes me laugh all the time.
377
00:13:43,849 --> 00:13:45,139
So this is us.
378
00:13:45,139 --> 00:13:45,319
Perfect.
379
00:13:45,319 --> 00:13:45,349
Yeah, this is
380
00:13:45,349 --> 00:13:45,574
me all the time.
381
00:13:45,644 --> 00:13:46,489
This is us all the
382
00:13:46,489 --> 00:13:47,149
time, right?
383
00:13:47,209 --> 00:13:49,129
Um, I'm always rolling my eyes.
384
00:13:49,129 --> 00:13:49,729
I'm always like
385
00:13:49,729 --> 00:13:51,049
full, like I'm a lot.
386
00:13:51,079 --> 00:13:51,679
Yeah.
387
00:13:51,769 --> 00:13:53,479
And I'm normally very caffeinated.
388
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:53,929
Yeah.
389
00:13:53,959 --> 00:13:55,819
He's the, you know, he's the funny one.
390
00:13:55,819 --> 00:14:00,199
I'm more of the cynical one, you
know, and, and it, and we kind
391
00:14:00,199 --> 00:14:02,689
of balance off and we kind of
work together really well, but.
392
00:14:03,064 --> 00:14:05,824
Doesn't work for a lot of
people usually, so, no.
393
00:14:05,824 --> 00:14:08,224
Yeah, I, I see the good in everybody.
394
00:14:08,294 --> 00:14:11,054
You know, I love everybody
the first time I meet them.
395
00:14:11,414 --> 00:14:11,624
Oh, wow.
396
00:14:11,624 --> 00:14:15,994
Um, it, it takes a lot for a
person to make me go, okay, I need
397
00:14:15,994 --> 00:14:17,044
to stay away from that person.
398
00:14:17,044 --> 00:14:17,104
Yeah.
399
00:14:17,134 --> 00:14:18,274
'cause they're just too toxic.
400
00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:18,334
Yeah.
401
00:14:18,334 --> 00:14:20,674
It normally is like,
third strike, you're out.
402
00:14:20,704 --> 00:14:21,094
Okay.
403
00:14:21,094 --> 00:14:21,694
That's enough.
404
00:14:21,944 --> 00:14:23,384
I can't keep you around anymore.
405
00:14:23,384 --> 00:14:23,714
But now I
406
00:14:23,714 --> 00:14:24,824
gotta do that Meyers thing.
407
00:14:24,824 --> 00:14:26,144
'cause I'm probably just Myers
408
00:14:26,234 --> 00:14:26,504
Briggs.
409
00:14:26,504 --> 00:14:28,004
Meyer Briggs, just like Myers thing.
410
00:14:28,004 --> 00:14:29,144
The Myers thing, you know,
411
00:14:29,684 --> 00:14:32,204
the US Meyers-Briggs thing for, for lunch,
412
00:14:32,204 --> 00:14:37,274
because I'm probably aligned
more of, I mean, I don't know.
413
00:14:37,634 --> 00:14:39,794
I wanna say there's probably a
J there and it's probably, it's
414
00:14:39,794 --> 00:14:41,619
probably for the judgmentalness of
415
00:14:42,439 --> 00:14:42,659
my
416
00:14:42,659 --> 00:14:42,939
brain.
417
00:14:43,544 --> 00:14:43,604
Yeah.
418
00:14:43,664 --> 00:14:44,954
It's worth, it's worth doing.
419
00:14:45,044 --> 00:14:45,459
It's, yeah.
420
00:14:45,884 --> 00:14:46,304
Yeah.
421
00:14:46,304 --> 00:14:48,044
And, and the Enneagram too is fascinating.
422
00:14:48,044 --> 00:14:48,614
It's actually been helpful.
423
00:14:48,614 --> 00:14:49,154
I'm gonna have to check
424
00:14:49,154 --> 00:14:49,699
out that other one.
425
00:14:49,704 --> 00:14:51,164
I hadn't heard that one before.
426
00:14:51,169 --> 00:14:51,219
Yeah.
427
00:14:51,219 --> 00:14:51,339
Yeah.
428
00:14:51,539 --> 00:14:51,854
I, yeah.
429
00:14:51,854 --> 00:14:52,544
It's pretty awesome.
430
00:14:53,174 --> 00:14:53,414
Yeah.
431
00:14:53,984 --> 00:14:56,354
Believe it or not, I'm
actually very introverted, so.
432
00:14:57,509 --> 00:15:00,059
She's the extrovert when
it comes to the two of us.
433
00:15:00,059 --> 00:15:03,099
So, uh, but I do well when
it's when it's via Zoom.
434
00:15:04,644 --> 00:15:04,994
Great.
435
00:15:05,104 --> 00:15:05,594
Obvious.
436
00:15:05,594 --> 00:15:06,159
That's good to, I'm also,
437
00:15:06,849 --> 00:15:08,319
I'm also extroverted on Zoom.
438
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:10,029
It's amazing.
439
00:15:10,034 --> 00:15:11,499
You're you're good at this.
440
00:15:11,619 --> 00:15:13,629
I can, I can see you, right?
441
00:15:13,629 --> 00:15:16,299
I feel like you're here now.
442
00:15:16,299 --> 00:15:20,169
You're, you're co-writing is a brave move.
443
00:15:20,829 --> 00:15:20,949
Mm-hmm.
444
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:24,519
You know, I, I think most couples
can't even decide on a, a Netflix show.
445
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:24,759
Really.
446
00:15:24,764 --> 00:15:24,954
Yeah.
447
00:15:25,059 --> 00:15:25,389
Yeah.
448
00:15:25,489 --> 00:15:30,939
But I think that's, I I always liked
that y'all really came together
449
00:15:30,939 --> 00:15:34,779
and created something that I just
think is, is really, really cool.
450
00:15:34,809 --> 00:15:35,169
Yeah.
451
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:41,069
You've both talked about paradigm shifts
about beyond mono normative conditioning.
452
00:15:41,429 --> 00:15:41,519
Mm-hmm.
453
00:15:41,909 --> 00:15:45,149
What's one old belief that
still tries to creep up on you
454
00:15:45,149 --> 00:15:46,979
even after all of this work?
455
00:15:46,984 --> 00:15:47,094
Hmm.
456
00:15:48,094 --> 00:15:56,584
I would say one that's still hard to
deconstruct is around sacredness and sex.
457
00:15:57,179 --> 00:15:58,259
Sacredness and sex.
458
00:15:58,499 --> 00:15:58,949
Yeah.
459
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:59,519
That it's, what do you
460
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:00,659
mean by sacredness?
461
00:16:00,659 --> 00:16:02,129
Like mm-hmm.
462
00:16:02,459 --> 00:16:03,599
And it comes up a lot.
463
00:16:03,629 --> 00:16:06,959
And maybe it's also 'cause I'm seeing
it, you know, like there'll be kind
464
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:09,809
of themes that show up through the
years where like, oh, everyone's
465
00:16:09,809 --> 00:16:11,459
trying to deconstruct this thing.
466
00:16:11,459 --> 00:16:11,579
Gotcha.
467
00:16:11,579 --> 00:16:14,729
And then a few years later it's like
everyone's deconstructing this, you know?
468
00:16:14,734 --> 00:16:14,884
Mm-hmm.
469
00:16:15,419 --> 00:16:16,799
And I'm seeing a lot of people, right.
470
00:16:16,799 --> 00:16:21,389
And they're like, it's hard to say like,
oh, but the sacredness of sex between two.
471
00:16:21,444 --> 00:16:21,794
Right.
472
00:16:21,894 --> 00:16:25,619
And then it's like less sacred if
you share it with somebody else.
473
00:16:25,979 --> 00:16:26,219
Right.
474
00:16:26,219 --> 00:16:26,279
Yeah.
475
00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:31,559
And so we're helping people through that
of it's not necessarily less sacred.
476
00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:34,499
It can be sacred in different ways.
477
00:16:35,459 --> 00:16:35,639
Yeah.
478
00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:35,819
I'm
479
00:16:35,819 --> 00:16:37,169
actually learning that.
480
00:16:37,174 --> 00:16:37,384
Yeah.
481
00:16:37,389 --> 00:16:40,869
And being that we've been in it
for so long, so that's interesting.
482
00:16:40,869 --> 00:16:41,049
Yeah.
483
00:16:41,049 --> 00:16:42,939
That does creep up pretty often.
484
00:16:42,999 --> 00:16:46,989
Well, you know, we're, uh, oftentimes
raised and a lot of people are raised
485
00:16:46,989 --> 00:16:49,389
in a religious space that mm-hmm.
486
00:16:49,629 --> 00:16:53,439
Preaches, one-on-one
partnership, uh, or what you
487
00:16:53,439 --> 00:16:56,314
share with your partner, you
should share with anybody else.
488
00:16:56,534 --> 00:16:57,069
And, you know,
489
00:16:57,159 --> 00:17:01,509
procreation is what sexual, uh,
reasons are for, and this and that.
490
00:17:01,514 --> 00:17:05,024
And so we are raised to, to feel this.
491
00:17:05,444 --> 00:17:06,149
We share this.
492
00:17:06,794 --> 00:17:10,964
Sex with a person that we love
and adore, and this is the one
493
00:17:10,964 --> 00:17:12,284
person we're gonna do it with.
494
00:17:12,824 --> 00:17:12,944
Right.
495
00:17:12,974 --> 00:17:17,504
Um, and so I feel like non-monogamy
is really starting to reach, its,
496
00:17:17,804 --> 00:17:22,034
its mainstream now, especially after
the pandemic and people are starting
497
00:17:22,034 --> 00:17:24,914
to realize that, hey, it's okay.
498
00:17:24,914 --> 00:17:27,374
It's okay to love more than one person.
499
00:17:27,884 --> 00:17:31,874
I always liked the example that
people would throw out, which
500
00:17:31,874 --> 00:17:33,224
is, well, are you a parent?
501
00:17:33,284 --> 00:17:35,024
You have more than one kid.
502
00:17:35,474 --> 00:17:35,564
Right.
503
00:17:35,564 --> 00:17:37,964
You know, do you love one over the other?
504
00:17:37,964 --> 00:17:42,494
Obviously we have a ton of kids
and I love them all equally,
505
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:44,054
but all in different ways.
506
00:17:44,089 --> 00:17:44,579
Exactly.
507
00:17:44,679 --> 00:17:48,164
And I bond equally with them,
but all in different ways.
508
00:17:48,224 --> 00:17:48,524
Yeah.
509
00:17:48,614 --> 00:17:52,724
Um, and I don't think that
people can really apply that
510
00:17:52,784 --> 00:17:54,704
to romantic relationships.
511
00:17:54,704 --> 00:17:58,034
And I think that's where we get
caught up in that, that stigma.
512
00:17:58,574 --> 00:17:59,114
Yes.
513
00:17:59,424 --> 00:18:01,814
You know, everyone loves
to talk about jealousy.
514
00:18:02,219 --> 00:18:04,649
And I think jealousy
is really villainized.
515
00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,839
But what I really want to
talk about is resentment.
516
00:18:08,589 --> 00:18:13,239
It's that that slow burn emotion that
ruins the vibe if you don't catch it.
517
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:17,959
How do you both spot it and how do
you deal with it before it gets toxic?
518
00:18:19,579 --> 00:18:22,099
You know, one of the systems that
we're both anchored in, in our
519
00:18:22,099 --> 00:18:24,829
work is the internal families work.
520
00:18:24,829 --> 00:18:29,749
And that's the difference between being
grounded in your sense of self, kind of
521
00:18:29,749 --> 00:18:34,549
your core essence versus a part, right?
522
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:40,859
Having a part of you that's carrying the
memory of something painful and sort of.
523
00:18:41,324 --> 00:18:44,564
Influencing your behavior in the
moment when something uncomfortable
524
00:18:44,564 --> 00:18:46,244
like resentment comes to the surface.
525
00:18:46,244 --> 00:18:49,154
So we're really teaching people
how to differentiate in our
526
00:18:49,154 --> 00:18:51,734
work between self and part.
527
00:18:51,794 --> 00:18:52,514
What is a part?
528
00:18:52,514 --> 00:18:53,084
What is a self?
529
00:18:53,084 --> 00:18:53,714
What do they look like?
530
00:18:53,714 --> 00:18:54,734
What do they feel like?
531
00:18:55,244 --> 00:19:01,574
One of the things that makes recognizing
parts easier is to listen to their
532
00:19:01,574 --> 00:19:06,284
stories, understand what the emotions
are that are attached to those, right?
533
00:19:06,284 --> 00:19:08,414
And then try to figure out
what are the needs underneath.
534
00:19:08,924 --> 00:19:12,554
And so usually resentment is
a really important signal.
535
00:19:12,824 --> 00:19:15,884
Kind of like on your dash
dashboard of your car, right?
536
00:19:16,484 --> 00:19:20,204
It's like, okay, the motor light
is on, resentment is flashing.
537
00:19:20,654 --> 00:19:22,244
What is it that we need to look at?
538
00:19:22,274 --> 00:19:23,954
There's a part that's speaking here.
539
00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:28,029
So for us, it's usually an indicator that
there's some kind of need underneath.
540
00:19:28,649 --> 00:19:31,589
The person's experience
that's not being addressed.
541
00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:37,289
So we're really using it as a way
to find ourselves to the need versus
542
00:19:37,349 --> 00:19:40,679
seeing resentment as fundamentally
problematic or something that we
543
00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:42,719
need to stop or shut down or fix.
544
00:19:43,259 --> 00:19:47,699
We really wanna invite it to the
surface and explore what is it trying
545
00:19:47,729 --> 00:19:49,529
to tell us about our lived experience.
546
00:19:49,619 --> 00:19:50,639
Mm-hmm.
547
00:19:50,884 --> 00:19:51,314
Right on.
548
00:19:51,554 --> 00:19:52,114
I like that.
549
00:19:52,184 --> 00:19:52,474
Yeah.
550
00:19:52,734 --> 00:19:58,379
And I would add that it's often pointing
to an longstanding dynamic where there's
551
00:19:58,379 --> 00:20:00,719
been an imbalance between two people.
552
00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,619
If someone feels like they've either
been over-functioning or, and the
553
00:20:04,619 --> 00:20:09,299
other partners been functioning,
or I've been absorbing things,
554
00:20:09,299 --> 00:20:13,409
or I haven't been speaking up
for my own needs and boundaries.
555
00:20:13,409 --> 00:20:15,509
So there's some kind of dynamic like that.
556
00:20:15,509 --> 00:20:18,149
And then therefore resentment is building.
557
00:20:19,169 --> 00:20:19,799
Wow.
558
00:20:19,889 --> 00:20:23,189
And I, I would figure it's rare
that new couples that get together.
559
00:20:23,879 --> 00:20:27,359
Automatically reach that space
where they're on the level,
560
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:28,619
they're both on the same level.
561
00:20:28,859 --> 00:20:32,039
I think that there's more push
and pull at times when it comes
562
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:34,089
to relationships normally.
563
00:20:34,089 --> 00:20:34,359
Right.
564
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,499
I mean, there's a lot of, you know,
one person takes the role a bit more.
565
00:20:38,499 --> 00:20:38,509
Yeah.
566
00:20:38,509 --> 00:20:40,779
And the other person gives
more and that sort of thing.
567
00:20:41,179 --> 00:20:42,709
And then over time they figure it out.
568
00:20:42,739 --> 00:20:44,719
Would you say as, as you found?
569
00:20:45,529 --> 00:20:45,709
Yeah.
570
00:20:45,739 --> 00:20:45,949
Yeah,
571
00:20:46,429 --> 00:20:47,359
of course.
572
00:20:47,479 --> 00:20:47,869
Right.
573
00:20:48,229 --> 00:20:51,709
Well, that's one of the misnomers
I think about the work on the
574
00:20:51,709 --> 00:20:55,339
surface is that everything's
supposed to be fair or balanced.
575
00:20:56,029 --> 00:20:58,459
And that's not usually
how relationships are.
576
00:20:58,459 --> 00:21:03,439
There's usually fundamental stark
ba imbalances in people's dynamics.
577
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:07,069
And so we're wanting to dismantle or
deconstruct this idea that things are
578
00:21:07,069 --> 00:21:12,579
supposed to be fair or 50 50 'cause
that's usually not how things work.
579
00:21:12,639 --> 00:21:17,139
And so what we're trying to figure out
is what are the actual needs that are
580
00:21:17,139 --> 00:21:20,829
trying to be met here in a relationship?
581
00:21:21,199 --> 00:21:25,189
And then try to leverage those needs
to create more of a sense of balance.
582
00:21:25,189 --> 00:21:29,329
It's not that you don't have a sense
of balance, but we're not trying to
583
00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:33,499
create sort of this, you do this,
this much, I do this this much.
584
00:21:33,529 --> 00:21:34,939
What are the lived experiences?
585
00:21:34,969 --> 00:21:36,409
What are the strengths and weaknesses?
586
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:39,949
What are the, what are the wounds
and traumas that we have that
587
00:21:39,949 --> 00:21:45,799
we're trying to heal together in
the context of the relationship?
588
00:21:46,199 --> 00:21:46,439
Yeah.
589
00:21:46,439 --> 00:21:50,549
You know, I, I think, uh, people
are, are much more fluid and there's
590
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:51,899
just so many different things.
591
00:21:51,899 --> 00:21:54,149
None of us can fit into that one box.
592
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:54,239
Mm-hmm.
593
00:21:54,899 --> 00:21:58,229
Um, and so yeah I don't know
if it's even really possible.
594
00:21:58,229 --> 00:22:01,319
I always wondered, and I'm kind of
curious on your thoughts as far as,
595
00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:06,599
uh, when it comes to relationships,
whether it be one-on-one or one-on many.
596
00:22:07,169 --> 00:22:12,284
What kind, you know, I. I know people
that are really big into the 50 50.
597
00:22:12,314 --> 00:22:16,404
We were at one point when we
got together of it being 50 50.
598
00:22:16,404 --> 00:22:19,254
Now we've reached that point where
it's like, it's give and take.
599
00:22:19,434 --> 00:22:24,344
Some days it's, it's 60 40, you
know, some, or is that math right?
600
00:22:24,374 --> 00:22:24,614
Yeah.
601
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:24,879
Okay.
602
00:22:26,834 --> 00:22:28,394
Better be that's off the cuff.
603
00:22:28,814 --> 00:22:32,414
You know, some days she's giving
more and I'm taking more, and,
604
00:22:32,414 --> 00:22:34,154
and some days it's vice versa.
605
00:22:34,184 --> 00:22:34,394
Yeah.
606
00:22:34,444 --> 00:22:37,774
You know, there's never really
days where it's 100% 50 50.
607
00:22:37,774 --> 00:22:37,984
That's right.
608
00:22:38,889 --> 00:22:43,564
But we give this
perception like it's 50 50.
609
00:22:43,894 --> 00:22:44,074
Yeah.
610
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:49,974
Would you say that in, in pretty
much most relationships, it's rare
611
00:22:49,974 --> 00:22:52,974
that 50 50 is actually a thing.
612
00:22:53,754 --> 00:22:56,484
I mean, that would take like real
organization, David, like you were
613
00:22:56,484 --> 00:23:00,924
saying, like, you, you take care
of these, I'll take care of these.
614
00:23:00,924 --> 00:23:01,674
You know what I mean?
615
00:23:01,704 --> 00:23:02,319
And we're good.
616
00:23:03,259 --> 00:23:03,549
Yeah.
617
00:23:04,809 --> 00:23:05,099
Yeah.
618
00:23:06,639 --> 00:23:10,569
I think a lot of times, well, yeah,
I don't think relationships are
619
00:23:10,569 --> 00:23:13,839
actually functioning in true 50 50 for
620
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:13,929
sure.
621
00:23:14,354 --> 00:23:14,644
Yeah.
622
00:23:14,754 --> 00:23:15,804
It's, that's hard.
623
00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:17,169
Yeah.
624
00:23:17,169 --> 00:23:18,909
Well, and and why is that the goal?
625
00:23:18,909 --> 00:23:20,469
I think we should even explore that.
626
00:23:20,469 --> 00:23:25,239
Ah, like what, you know, like, I think
it comes from gender equality being
627
00:23:25,239 --> 00:23:30,009
something that is still getting figured
out and has been very important.
628
00:23:30,009 --> 00:23:35,169
And then we're imposing, you know, an
important systemic concept of gender
629
00:23:35,169 --> 00:23:39,849
equality into the nuance of a day-to-day
experience between two partners.
630
00:23:40,419 --> 00:23:43,389
It doesn't translate in that way as 50 50.
631
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:47,919
And that becomes even more important in
the context of polyamory or ethical or
632
00:23:47,919 --> 00:23:52,359
consensual non-monogamy, because you're
not working in a dyadic framework often.
633
00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:56,079
And so one of the things that I
think has been helpful to understand
634
00:23:56,139 --> 00:24:00,639
for people as a litmus test for
balances, what is real capacity?
635
00:24:01,299 --> 00:24:01,839
Yeah,
636
00:24:01,959 --> 00:24:03,429
and capacity is a fluid thing.
637
00:24:03,429 --> 00:24:05,919
Kind of like what you were saying
in a moment ago, Adam, right?
638
00:24:05,979 --> 00:24:09,609
Some days my capacity's
higher than others.
639
00:24:10,209 --> 00:24:13,689
Some days my needs are different,
and so being able to think in
640
00:24:13,689 --> 00:24:18,519
terms of what's realistic, in terms
of what I can offer you, right?
641
00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:23,754
In terms of proximity, attention,
safety, respect, trust, express,
642
00:24:23,814 --> 00:24:27,879
desire, all of these fundamental
attachment needs that we have in
643
00:24:27,879 --> 00:24:30,489
relationship, those things are shifting.
644
00:24:30,579 --> 00:24:35,649
What I'd rather see is people be able
to know their own barometer and be
645
00:24:35,649 --> 00:24:41,319
able to communicate that in a way that
feels transparent and not dictated by
646
00:24:41,379 --> 00:24:43,839
emotional survival strategies, right?
647
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:47,829
I can authentically let you know what my
boundaries are based on my sense of needs.
648
00:24:48,504 --> 00:24:49,074
And there we go.
649
00:24:49,074 --> 00:24:50,514
Back to that question of resentment.
650
00:24:50,574 --> 00:24:54,384
You can often bring down the
temperature of resentment, right?
651
00:24:54,384 --> 00:24:57,444
When you have a really clear sense
of what your needs are and you know
652
00:24:57,444 --> 00:25:00,504
how to communicate them in a way
that's relational versus adversarial.
653
00:25:00,744 --> 00:25:01,074
Sure.
654
00:25:01,584 --> 00:25:02,604
Oh, now that's very well put.
655
00:25:03,114 --> 00:25:03,474
I'm sorry.
656
00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:04,164
Go ahead Jessica.
657
00:25:04,224 --> 00:25:10,824
Yeah, I think too, what often happens is
this whole idea of 50 50, even though it
658
00:25:10,824 --> 00:25:15,204
makes sense, it sets us up to be in an
adversarial position with our partner.
659
00:25:15,204 --> 00:25:18,144
Like, I'm doing my half
or you doing your half
660
00:25:18,174 --> 00:25:18,264
right?
661
00:25:18,264 --> 00:25:18,354
And
662
00:25:18,744 --> 00:25:21,144
then we're like keeping track in this way.
663
00:25:21,714 --> 00:25:26,754
And so what I find in the couples that
are actually thriving, um, is their
664
00:25:26,754 --> 00:25:31,374
approach is I am a hundred percent
responsible for this relationship.
665
00:25:31,784 --> 00:25:36,164
And so is my partner, but I am going
to show up with my a hundred percent.
666
00:25:36,224 --> 00:25:39,464
And then obviously I expect
that too of my partner.
667
00:25:39,464 --> 00:25:42,704
But that ebbs and flows like
we've already been saying.
668
00:25:42,874 --> 00:25:43,324
Sure.
669
00:25:43,474 --> 00:25:43,684
Yeah.
670
00:25:43,684 --> 00:25:47,804
And you know that can really apply well
to a one-on-one relationship, but when
671
00:25:47,804 --> 00:25:54,974
you open it up to a few more and you're
trying to keep as much of yourself in each
672
00:25:54,974 --> 00:26:00,314
and every relationship, and you're trying
to put your best in every relationship,
673
00:26:00,344 --> 00:26:04,804
even your relationships, I would think
wouldn't all equally be they're not.
674
00:26:04,804 --> 00:26:05,044
That's right.
675
00:26:05,289 --> 00:26:05,829
Be equal.
676
00:26:05,829 --> 00:26:06,604
You would have, yeah.
677
00:26:06,604 --> 00:26:09,094
You'd have one relationship
that was really like, you're
678
00:26:09,094 --> 00:26:10,474
putting way more into it.
679
00:26:10,474 --> 00:26:14,164
You'd have one relationship that's
probably a bit less, and even one
680
00:26:14,164 --> 00:26:15,454
that's even a bit less than that.
681
00:26:15,484 --> 00:26:17,584
'cause it, I mean, it takes,
it takes a lot out of you.
682
00:26:18,034 --> 00:26:18,274
Yeah.
683
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:18,469
It's,
684
00:26:18,574 --> 00:26:19,384
it's exhausting.
685
00:26:19,654 --> 00:26:22,714
That's really a good point,
especially for the ethical
686
00:26:22,714 --> 00:26:25,069
non-monogamous community because the.
687
00:26:26,309 --> 00:26:29,489
Partnerships or the constellations of
relationships that I see struggle the
688
00:26:29,489 --> 00:26:34,319
most are when people are trying to take
this static model of my a hundred percent
689
00:26:34,739 --> 00:26:37,469
and then do that here and then here.
690
00:26:37,889 --> 00:26:41,549
Whereas the partnerships that do
the best are the ones that have
691
00:26:41,549 --> 00:26:47,249
very specific needs that they're
recognizing can't be met by a certain
692
00:26:47,249 --> 00:26:52,799
partnership, and then they're using other
relationships to get those needs met.
693
00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:58,439
But it's very explicit and everyone
in that system is really understanding
694
00:26:58,739 --> 00:27:01,769
what the roles are, what the
needs are that are getting met.
695
00:27:01,769 --> 00:27:06,149
These are the constellations of
relationships that do the best, and
696
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:10,049
they're working within that framework
of, this is where I get these needs
697
00:27:10,049 --> 00:27:13,799
met and my expectations are now
not on this other relationship.
698
00:27:14,689 --> 00:27:18,679
And so they're not trying to reproduce
the same amount of attachment
699
00:27:18,679 --> 00:27:20,929
or the same amount of connection
in all of the relationships.
700
00:27:20,959 --> 00:27:22,189
Not to say that you can't.
701
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:25,549
I'm just talking anecdotally
from what I've seen, right?
702
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:25,849
Sure.
703
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:26,719
Yeah, sure.
704
00:27:26,899 --> 00:27:28,279
That has to be really hard.
705
00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,309
I mean, we have a lot of friends that
are, well, we have a couple of friends
706
00:27:31,309 --> 00:27:37,699
that are poly and they just have like
one partner each, and I don't know
707
00:27:37,699 --> 00:27:40,519
how they make it work, but I just
sit back sometimes and I'm like, wow.
708
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:47,059
Because I've seen them, I've seen
the husband and the wife together be
709
00:27:47,059 --> 00:27:50,269
great, and I've seen the girlfriend
and the husband together and the
710
00:27:50,269 --> 00:27:53,899
wife and her boyfriend together,
and it's like, wow, you guys can
711
00:27:53,899 --> 00:27:56,209
make this all work works so well.
712
00:27:56,269 --> 00:28:00,949
I just I don't know, my, my brain hasn't
wrapped around that kind because I am
713
00:28:00,949 --> 00:28:06,859
the person that's like, well, if you're,
I want you to give me a hundred or
714
00:28:06,859 --> 00:28:09,349
50, but I only want you to give them.
715
00:28:09,394 --> 00:28:12,754
10. Like, I wanna be in control of that.
716
00:28:13,324 --> 00:28:16,264
I just want you to give them
like 10% of your, your emotional.
717
00:28:16,264 --> 00:28:18,514
And if I'm not feeling good,
it needs to be less than
718
00:28:18,514 --> 00:28:19,054
Yes.
719
00:28:20,134 --> 00:28:20,314
So
720
00:28:20,314 --> 00:28:21,904
that is very hard for me.
721
00:28:21,954 --> 00:28:24,074
It was something, well
I'm, we're not, he's gotten
722
00:28:24,074 --> 00:28:25,394
a lot, we're not Polly, but better
723
00:28:25,394 --> 00:28:25,844
every time.
724
00:28:25,844 --> 00:28:30,074
We have people that like, like
y'all selves, um, give me little
725
00:28:30,074 --> 00:28:33,404
tidbits and they, I kind of take
it all in because you're right.
726
00:28:33,434 --> 00:28:37,004
You know, everything I was
raised with is still in my brain.
727
00:28:37,004 --> 00:28:37,094
Mm-hmm.
728
00:28:37,334 --> 00:28:41,114
I have to learn how to, if I want it
to grow, if I want the relationship
729
00:28:41,114 --> 00:28:44,569
to grow, you kind of have to like
figure it out, somehow, whatever works
730
00:28:44,569 --> 00:28:46,024
for you, but figure it out somehow.
731
00:28:46,204 --> 00:28:46,504
Yeah.
732
00:28:46,504 --> 00:28:49,804
And a lot of the things that prevent you
from growing are a lot of insecurities.
733
00:28:49,834 --> 00:28:49,924
Yeah.
734
00:28:49,924 --> 00:28:52,084
And as you let them
go, you get to grow and
735
00:28:52,084 --> 00:28:52,564
resentment.
736
00:28:52,624 --> 00:28:53,134
Uh, yeah.
737
00:28:53,164 --> 00:28:53,584
Yeah,
738
00:28:53,734 --> 00:28:54,064
yeah.
739
00:28:54,154 --> 00:28:54,394
Yeah.
740
00:28:54,394 --> 00:28:55,684
It's crazy.
741
00:28:56,089 --> 00:28:58,699
And then you have the,
you're a family too.
742
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:00,469
I mean, you have five children.
743
00:29:00,619 --> 00:29:00,889
Yeah.
744
00:29:01,159 --> 00:29:04,399
So I see that with people,
couples that have children.
745
00:29:04,459 --> 00:29:05,509
It's very different.
746
00:29:05,509 --> 00:29:08,449
'cause you're like, this isn't
just, I'm getting less time.
747
00:29:08,689 --> 00:29:08,899
Yeah.
748
00:29:09,169 --> 00:29:10,909
With you as my romantic partner.
749
00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:14,749
It's like our family, our children
are actually getting less time
750
00:29:15,204 --> 00:29:17,739
and, and that becomes, an area.
751
00:29:17,739 --> 00:29:17,829
Yeah.
752
00:29:18,069 --> 00:29:23,039
That's really where I struggled because
it eventually, it became less of a,
753
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:24,779
well, I can't share you romantically.
754
00:29:24,779 --> 00:29:25,889
She didn't care about that.
755
00:29:25,919 --> 00:29:27,419
It was the time.
756
00:29:27,424 --> 00:29:27,714
Yeah.
757
00:29:27,719 --> 00:29:27,839
Yeah.
758
00:29:27,869 --> 00:29:28,379
Um, I'm,
759
00:29:28,439 --> 00:29:29,849
I'm very close to my kids.
760
00:29:29,849 --> 00:29:31,289
I even homeschooled them for a spell.
761
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,599
Like, I, I spend a lot of time with them.
762
00:29:33,629 --> 00:29:33,989
Yeah.
763
00:29:34,109 --> 00:29:40,229
And all of a sudden I was shirking time
with them to go take a girlfriend out.
764
00:29:40,289 --> 00:29:40,589
Yeah.
765
00:29:40,649 --> 00:29:43,019
And it didn't make me feel comfortable.
766
00:29:43,019 --> 00:29:45,839
I know it bothered her, but
it bothered me even more.
767
00:29:45,944 --> 00:29:47,879
Do you, do y'all see that a lot?
768
00:29:47,879 --> 00:29:50,399
Do you see where it's like
the family ones don't really.
769
00:29:51,194 --> 00:29:54,794
Like it's, it's easier for
single, single singles to be in
770
00:29:54,794 --> 00:29:56,864
a poly relationship or married.
771
00:29:58,484 --> 00:29:58,874
Yeah.
772
00:29:58,874 --> 00:30:02,714
Well, no, I, I definitely know married
couples that are thriving Polly.
773
00:30:02,814 --> 00:30:03,204
I see.
774
00:30:03,204 --> 00:30:06,894
The ones that are doing it the
best either don't have kids.
775
00:30:06,899 --> 00:30:06,939
Mm-hmm.
776
00:30:07,024 --> 00:30:11,964
Or their kids are older and out of the
house, or like older teens and they're
777
00:30:11,964 --> 00:30:15,774
not needing as much family intensive time.
778
00:30:15,924 --> 00:30:16,044
Yeah.
779
00:30:16,494 --> 00:30:21,174
And I see the families that are trying
to do poly and they have younger kids,
780
00:30:21,174 --> 00:30:26,024
or kids with special needs or higher
needs, it's harder to have more,
781
00:30:26,094 --> 00:30:28,344
other attachment based relationships.
782
00:30:28,344 --> 00:30:29,784
There just isn't the time.
783
00:30:30,504 --> 00:30:30,864
Yeah.
784
00:30:31,369 --> 00:30:31,729
Yeah.
785
00:30:31,854 --> 00:30:32,144
Yeah,
786
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:32,449
that
787
00:30:32,449 --> 00:30:32,689
makes a
788
00:30:32,689 --> 00:30:33,379
lot of sense.
789
00:30:33,499 --> 00:30:34,219
What now?
790
00:30:34,244 --> 00:30:34,904
In the,
791
00:30:35,084 --> 00:30:37,784
hold on, I'll add, unless
those relationships can
792
00:30:37,784 --> 00:30:39,554
come into the family system.
793
00:30:39,854 --> 00:30:41,894
Ah, that's when then I see it actually.
794
00:30:41,919 --> 00:30:42,119
Yeah.
795
00:30:42,139 --> 00:30:43,639
Oh, I've, I've seen that before.
796
00:30:43,844 --> 00:30:44,054
Yeah.
797
00:30:44,144 --> 00:30:44,594
Right.
798
00:30:44,594 --> 00:30:48,134
And we have a version of that
actually, where like, our partners
799
00:30:48,134 --> 00:30:52,784
are a part of our family system
and therefore it doesn't feel like
800
00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:54,704
it's taking away from our family.
801
00:30:54,704 --> 00:30:56,354
It feels like it's really adding.
802
00:30:56,984 --> 00:30:57,284
Yeah.
803
00:30:57,284 --> 00:30:59,324
And in our context to be transparent.
804
00:30:59,714 --> 00:31:03,344
Jessica and I do not
have a sexual or romantic
805
00:31:03,464 --> 00:31:04,004
part of our
806
00:31:04,004 --> 00:31:05,204
relationship anymore.
807
00:31:05,804 --> 00:31:06,014
Right.
808
00:31:06,014 --> 00:31:08,024
And so that dissolved
when we got divorced.
809
00:31:08,294 --> 00:31:13,164
Um, but, and that changes the way that,
at least for me my attachment system
810
00:31:13,164 --> 00:31:15,534
feels in relationship to Jessica.
811
00:31:15,834 --> 00:31:16,014
Yeah.
812
00:31:16,044 --> 00:31:16,224
So
813
00:31:16,284 --> 00:31:19,824
we actually, one of the interesting
things is when we were married, we were
814
00:31:19,824 --> 00:31:23,334
always talking about some point we're
gonna collaborate professionally and
815
00:31:23,334 --> 00:31:24,804
do this relationship work together.
816
00:31:25,134 --> 00:31:28,074
And that never happened until
actually we went through the divorce,
817
00:31:28,374 --> 00:31:32,844
spent time apart, and then came
back together as a new system.
818
00:31:33,534 --> 00:31:36,594
Uh, so it's been a really interesting
twist of fate in that sense, but it
819
00:31:36,594 --> 00:31:40,584
makes sense to me now in retrospect,
and this is actually one of my favorite
820
00:31:40,584 --> 00:31:44,904
iterations of our relationship, because
there's a certain ease and fluidity
821
00:31:44,904 --> 00:31:50,544
and functionality and harmony to
our system that wasn't present and
822
00:31:50,544 --> 00:31:52,344
the same way when we were married.
823
00:31:52,674 --> 00:31:53,184
So I think
824
00:31:53,184 --> 00:31:54,234
that is so cool.
825
00:31:54,234 --> 00:31:55,654
David, like, so beautiful.
826
00:31:55,654 --> 00:32:01,494
I think that's really awesome because you
guys went from doing this personal, very
827
00:32:01,494 --> 00:32:06,564
personal relationship to walking away
from it in, in that moment and being able
828
00:32:06,564 --> 00:32:11,094
to come back together and collaborating
on a whole nother relationship.
829
00:32:11,099 --> 00:32:11,179
Mm-hmm.
830
00:32:11,409 --> 00:32:11,699
Yeah.
831
00:32:11,704 --> 00:32:14,214
And, and it's nothing but positivity.
832
00:32:14,214 --> 00:32:14,784
I love it.
833
00:32:14,834 --> 00:32:15,824
'Cause I'm a positive guy
834
00:32:17,054 --> 00:32:19,604
and, uh, well, when we, when we
tell people what we're doing,
835
00:32:19,724 --> 00:32:22,904
you know, unless they're really
embedded in this subculture.
836
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:23,264
Yeah.
837
00:32:23,944 --> 00:32:25,264
There's a lot of double taking.
838
00:32:25,264 --> 00:32:28,384
There's like you're living with your
ex-wife, you know, and it's, it's
839
00:32:28,384 --> 00:32:32,014
interesting because right now in my
practice I have a lot of partners
840
00:32:32,014 --> 00:32:36,814
who are dissolving a lot of marriages
that are deciding to go their own way.
841
00:32:37,324 --> 00:32:41,134
And it's been really fascinating
to watch how the hardest part
842
00:32:41,134 --> 00:32:45,214
of that for them, aside from the
unraveling the attachment system.
843
00:32:45,214 --> 00:32:48,754
And what that can do to your nervous
system and your emotional experience is
844
00:32:48,754 --> 00:32:54,244
the family systems that they're embedded
in that are constantly deriding, their
845
00:32:54,244 --> 00:32:59,704
desire to have a conscious uncoupling,
to have a peaceful and harmonious and
846
00:32:59,704 --> 00:33:04,384
non-contentious disillusionment of
their connection, that people around
847
00:33:04,384 --> 00:33:05,674
them are saying, what are you doing?
848
00:33:05,674 --> 00:33:05,734
Yeah.
849
00:33:06,124 --> 00:33:11,344
Why are you still trying to have this kind
of intimacy, whether it's intellectual
850
00:33:11,344 --> 00:33:14,674
or circumstantial with your ex.
851
00:33:14,824 --> 00:33:14,914
Mm-hmm.
852
00:33:15,154 --> 00:33:15,304
Right.
853
00:33:15,304 --> 00:33:17,254
Or soon to be ex there's like this.
854
00:33:17,914 --> 00:33:23,134
Fomenting of conflict that's happening
in sort of the outer concentric circles
855
00:33:23,134 --> 00:33:25,754
of these people's inner relationships.
856
00:33:26,324 --> 00:33:29,384
And it's, it's interesting to watch
that because people don't have a model
857
00:33:29,384 --> 00:33:31,904
for this kind of thing that we've done.
858
00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:37,424
And I think it's one of the most powerful
sort of gifts that we're giving, um, is
859
00:33:37,424 --> 00:33:40,004
just to show that yeah, it can happen.
860
00:33:40,004 --> 00:33:41,594
It doesn't have to be that way.
861
00:33:41,814 --> 00:33:44,484
I think, uh, it's very black and white.
862
00:33:44,484 --> 00:33:45,144
Sorry, Jessica.
863
00:33:45,144 --> 00:33:45,354
Go ahead.
864
00:33:45,714 --> 00:33:47,394
I was gonna say, it's such a binary.
865
00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:49,074
You're either together or you're exes.
866
00:33:49,614 --> 00:33:49,854
Yeah.
867
00:33:49,854 --> 00:33:49,874
And that's,
868
00:33:49,874 --> 00:33:51,774
and that's the way we're kind of raised.
869
00:33:51,824 --> 00:33:55,634
You know, it's like there's no
in-between, there's no gray area.
870
00:33:55,634 --> 00:33:58,754
You're either, you know, you're
either with them or you hate them.
871
00:33:58,759 --> 00:33:58,989
Yeah.
872
00:33:58,994 --> 00:33:59,114
Yeah.
873
00:33:59,144 --> 00:33:59,744
Um, and they
874
00:33:59,744 --> 00:34:00,824
have to stay away from you.
875
00:34:01,044 --> 00:34:03,204
Which just so happens to
be the case for both of us.
876
00:34:03,324 --> 00:34:05,314
But it's not always the case.
877
00:34:05,314 --> 00:34:09,904
Like, um, there's a lot of people that
operate in a very gray area mm-hmm.
878
00:34:09,905 --> 00:34:12,574
Where it doesn't have
to be black and white.
879
00:34:13,054 --> 00:34:13,504
Um.
880
00:34:14,404 --> 00:34:18,964
I think especially when you're
co-parenting, you really have to
881
00:34:18,964 --> 00:34:22,324
play in that gray area as much as
possible for the sake of the kids.
882
00:34:22,534 --> 00:34:22,654
Yeah.
883
00:34:22,714 --> 00:34:27,604
Um, because, you know, even if there are
other partners around, you know, we, we
884
00:34:27,604 --> 00:34:30,994
are non-monogamous, our exes are not.
885
00:34:31,234 --> 00:34:31,414
Mm-hmm.
886
00:34:31,654 --> 00:34:34,174
And we still have to co-parent with them.
887
00:34:34,174 --> 00:34:38,284
And so we still have to continue on
this relationship with them, to work
888
00:34:38,284 --> 00:34:40,084
with them for the sake of our kids.
889
00:34:40,474 --> 00:34:45,194
And, uh, you know, some people get
along better than others and some
890
00:34:45,194 --> 00:34:46,724
people can really pull it off better.
891
00:34:46,724 --> 00:34:49,364
And I, I think that the fact
that you guys can work together,
892
00:34:49,364 --> 00:34:50,714
I think that's incredible.
893
00:34:50,984 --> 00:34:51,224
Yeah.
894
00:34:51,254 --> 00:34:51,674
You know,
895
00:34:52,034 --> 00:34:52,334
that's,
896
00:34:52,574 --> 00:34:56,474
that really says a lot about your
emotional intelligence, uh, because I
897
00:34:56,474 --> 00:34:59,679
think that there's, that's something
that's just missing oftentimes, yes.
898
00:34:59,989 --> 00:35:02,524
Well, you, you were asking earlier about.
899
00:35:03,454 --> 00:35:07,204
What are some of the hangovers
of the monogamous paradigm
900
00:35:07,294 --> 00:35:07,744
on
901
00:35:07,804 --> 00:35:08,824
our lived experience?
902
00:35:08,824 --> 00:35:14,614
And I think actually this is one of the
Le Lesser talked about facets of mono
903
00:35:14,614 --> 00:35:17,974
normative culture, which is that sort
of black and white reader together.
904
00:35:17,974 --> 00:35:18,394
We're not.
905
00:35:18,394 --> 00:35:22,324
And if we're not, then basically
there's this contentious
906
00:35:22,324 --> 00:35:23,674
relationship that we have.
907
00:35:23,674 --> 00:35:24,364
You're out.
908
00:35:24,574 --> 00:35:26,104
You sure you're in or you're out.
909
00:35:26,494 --> 00:35:30,304
And I think that's something that's
actually a hangover of mono normative
910
00:35:30,304 --> 00:35:34,834
culture as well, because people are
not as used to just not modeled.
911
00:35:35,014 --> 00:35:36,514
To be in the gray area.
912
00:35:36,514 --> 00:35:41,564
And this is really what I think the
culture is lagging in is this, how
913
00:35:41,564 --> 00:35:47,474
do we safely navigate the gray area
until a new paradigm can really
914
00:35:47,474 --> 00:35:50,084
solidify and emerge out of this chaos.
915
00:35:51,314 --> 00:35:51,914
Right on.
916
00:35:52,004 --> 00:35:53,144
That's very well put.
917
00:35:53,594 --> 00:35:54,134
Oh man.
918
00:35:54,374 --> 00:35:57,644
David feel so enlightened right now.
919
00:35:57,854 --> 00:36:00,654
So I gotta ask you, David, because
I'm already on you right now.
920
00:36:01,979 --> 00:36:07,019
This wonderful experience of non-monogamy.
921
00:36:07,019 --> 00:36:09,599
I mean, obviously you're,
you are working in the field.
922
00:36:10,319 --> 00:36:14,969
Uh, what would you say is your,
the biggest learning experience
923
00:36:14,969 --> 00:36:16,019
that you've come across?
924
00:36:16,019 --> 00:36:16,329
Like mm-hmm.
925
00:36:16,329 --> 00:36:20,069
Like, uh, in this entire time,
like obviously everything
926
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:21,059
is a learning experience.
927
00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:22,589
Every day you're learning something new.
928
00:36:22,649 --> 00:36:26,549
Every time you establish a relationship,
there's always something new.
929
00:36:26,999 --> 00:36:30,629
But that one monumental piece
that just kind of made you
930
00:36:30,629 --> 00:36:33,899
sit back and go, huh, okay.
931
00:36:33,959 --> 00:36:35,669
You know, this one's gonna
stay with me for a while.
932
00:36:36,539 --> 00:36:36,969
Yeah, that's easy.
933
00:36:37,869 --> 00:36:44,139
When we started to fall apart as a
married couple and I started to really
934
00:36:44,139 --> 00:36:50,799
exhibit extreme behavior, what I now know
was essentially a form of primal panic.
935
00:36:52,089 --> 00:36:58,899
It forced me to really confront attachment
and what my attachment system was doing.
936
00:36:59,514 --> 00:37:03,504
It wasn't until Jessica basically put
a hard, I'm not talking to you until
937
00:37:03,504 --> 00:37:08,304
you read the description of anxious
attachment style and the way that that
938
00:37:08,304 --> 00:37:10,674
manifests when it's totally dysregulated.
939
00:37:11,034 --> 00:37:11,184
Yeah.
940
00:37:11,574 --> 00:37:16,524
That I really started to have probably
one of the most sober reckonings of my
941
00:37:16,524 --> 00:37:22,794
life with my own nervous system, my own
organism, my own just totality of being,
942
00:37:23,724 --> 00:37:28,464
and that's been the thing that still I'm
in awe of in doing this work with partners
943
00:37:28,494 --> 00:37:35,364
is just how powerful the attachment
system is, what it can make you do.
944
00:37:36,414 --> 00:37:36,654
Right.
945
00:37:36,654 --> 00:37:42,304
When I was in restorative justice, a lot
of the cases that we couldn't touch were
946
00:37:43,294 --> 00:37:45,574
domestic violence or domestic abuse.
947
00:37:45,814 --> 00:37:51,964
You like where I was specifically, you
know, cops would want to refer cases to
948
00:37:51,964 --> 00:37:54,904
us and by law in this state, we can't.
949
00:37:55,804 --> 00:37:59,104
You know, it's interesting, you know,
hearing the stats coming back from
950
00:37:59,104 --> 00:38:03,334
police and what they were saying
is, you know, over 75% of domestic
951
00:38:03,334 --> 00:38:06,244
abuse cases deal with alcohol.
952
00:38:06,994 --> 00:38:07,204
Oh, wow.
953
00:38:07,234 --> 00:38:08,764
And so I'm someone who doesn't drink.
954
00:38:08,854 --> 00:38:12,394
And I remember thinking about these
extreme moments when I was going
955
00:38:12,394 --> 00:38:15,904
through primal panic and I was like,
wow, if I had been drinking in those
956
00:38:15,904 --> 00:38:20,404
moments, it would've been so easy to
have just done something absolutely
957
00:38:20,404 --> 00:38:22,144
catastrophic and irreparable.
958
00:38:22,594 --> 00:38:22,684
Sure.
959
00:38:22,994 --> 00:38:24,104
From one perspective.
960
00:38:24,524 --> 00:38:29,954
And so it's just that in and of itself is
just what the attachment system can make
961
00:38:29,954 --> 00:38:36,554
us do when we don't understand it, that
it's true influence on us as human beings
962
00:38:36,554 --> 00:38:41,114
with nervous systems, I think is still one
of the most awe-inspiring facets of this.
963
00:38:41,114 --> 00:38:41,474
For me,
964
00:38:42,284 --> 00:38:46,054
I love, you know, that can really apply
to a lot, you know, when people are always
965
00:38:46,054 --> 00:38:47,374
afraid of what they don't understand.
966
00:38:47,734 --> 00:38:51,664
Uh, and, and I think we run
into that a lot in this, uh.
967
00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:52,879
This arena.
968
00:38:53,269 --> 00:38:56,539
Jessica, I'm kind of curious about
this, about your answer on this one,
969
00:38:57,019 --> 00:39:02,929
you know, in, in your time, going
all the way back to 14 and up in
970
00:39:02,929 --> 00:39:05,629
that time, what was that learning?
971
00:39:05,689 --> 00:39:07,459
You know, what, how was
that learning experience?
972
00:39:07,459 --> 00:39:08,539
What was that number one?
973
00:39:08,539 --> 00:39:09,859
Just revolutionary.
974
00:39:09,859 --> 00:39:11,389
I got it.
975
00:39:11,389 --> 00:39:13,009
And this is gonna stay with me for life.
976
00:39:13,429 --> 00:39:15,289
I don't know if I have a number one.
977
00:39:15,709 --> 00:39:15,949
Really?
978
00:39:16,244 --> 00:39:16,534
Yeah.
979
00:39:16,534 --> 00:39:16,814
Really?
980
00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:17,419
Yeah.
981
00:39:17,419 --> 00:39:18,979
I don't think I have a number one either.
982
00:39:19,009 --> 00:39:19,429
Really?
983
00:39:19,429 --> 00:39:20,269
I have a lot.
984
00:39:21,469 --> 00:39:23,329
It's so, it's so white and black for me.
985
00:39:23,329 --> 00:39:24,319
Y'all are in the gray area.
986
00:39:24,319 --> 00:39:25,189
Yeah, right.
987
00:39:25,189 --> 00:39:26,374
It's okay.
988
00:39:26,374 --> 00:39:26,894
I like gray.
989
00:39:29,539 --> 00:39:34,059
I think there's something that's
matured in me, you know, is like,
990
00:39:34,389 --> 00:39:40,189
there's been there's a lot of moments
of identifying certain ways, being
991
00:39:40,189 --> 00:39:44,689
excited to identify those ways, feeling
liberated to identify those ways.
992
00:39:45,334 --> 00:39:47,614
And then realizing, okay.
993
00:39:47,614 --> 00:39:51,634
Just because that's who I feel
myself to be or how I identify myself
994
00:39:51,634 --> 00:39:53,764
doesn't mean that's always what I do.
995
00:39:54,244 --> 00:39:59,644
Because it's not always what's best
for even me or those around me.
996
00:40:00,124 --> 00:40:00,424
Right.
997
00:40:00,424 --> 00:40:04,024
I was joking with a client yesterday,
she's poly saturated at one.
998
00:40:04,114 --> 00:40:04,204
Right.
999
00:40:05,464 --> 00:40:08,824
And someone else earlier this week
was like, I'm poly saturated at zero.
1000
00:40:08,824 --> 00:40:09,214
You know?
1001
00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:09,454
Yeah.
1002
00:40:09,934 --> 00:40:13,724
So I think like, yeah, that would be one.
1003
00:40:14,084 --> 00:40:16,214
Well, you know, and I, it's
funny that you bring that up.
1004
00:40:16,214 --> 00:40:20,324
'cause when we were poly and I remember
trying to find different communities
1005
00:40:20,324 --> 00:40:22,634
and I think we were on Facebook
groups and things like that, and we
1006
00:40:22,634 --> 00:40:26,354
were trying to find more people like
us, and we were trying to get more
1007
00:40:26,354 --> 00:40:30,074
information, which, uh, one thing that
I ran into was a lot of people were not
1008
00:40:30,074 --> 00:40:33,014
very helpful with giving information.
1009
00:40:33,014 --> 00:40:35,624
Everything is, uh, Google it fool.
1010
00:40:35,714 --> 00:40:38,444
You know, it's like that
kind of attitude about it.
1011
00:40:38,814 --> 00:40:38,914
But.
1012
00:40:40,084 --> 00:40:44,644
We were trying to really find our
footing and we used to see people
1013
00:40:45,364 --> 00:40:50,914
who, it was almost their goal to
have as many partners as possible.
1014
00:40:50,944 --> 00:40:51,034
Mm-hmm.
1015
00:40:51,034 --> 00:40:51,094
Yeah.
1016
00:40:51,454 --> 00:40:55,054
And I mean, there was one
person that I, as ridiculous
1017
00:40:55,054 --> 00:40:58,834
as it sounded, 15, 15 partners.
1018
00:40:58,894 --> 00:41:03,064
And it just, I, I remember sitting
back going, how do you put yourself
1019
00:41:03,064 --> 00:41:05,194
in every single one of those?
1020
00:41:05,254 --> 00:41:05,644
Yeah.
1021
00:41:05,704 --> 00:41:09,779
And, and it was kind of cleared up
to me after a while, which was, you
1022
00:41:09,779 --> 00:41:13,659
know, they had different bondings
with each and every one of them.
1023
00:41:13,659 --> 00:41:13,764
Mm-hmm.
1024
00:41:13,844 --> 00:41:13,854
Yeah.
1025
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:18,389
And that was, there was no real
definition to their relationship.
1026
00:41:18,389 --> 00:41:21,809
It was just what worked, you know, and
this what, this is what works for us
1027
00:41:21,809 --> 00:41:25,539
and there's no real they're just my
partner and this is what we do together.
1028
00:41:25,939 --> 00:41:28,999
And so I kind of understood that, but at
the same time, I'm like, man, that just.
1029
00:41:29,584 --> 00:41:34,234
That is overly polys saturated to me
because I, I wouldn't have been able to
1030
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,874
handle more than one other relationship.
1031
00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:37,234
Yeah.
1032
00:41:37,294 --> 00:41:40,894
And I think the struggle for me
when I was poly was when I, I, I
1033
00:41:40,894 --> 00:41:42,904
had a girlfriend and I had my wife.
1034
00:41:43,624 --> 00:41:47,854
My primary relationship is really good.
1035
00:41:47,884 --> 00:41:47,974
Mm-hmm.
1036
00:41:48,434 --> 00:41:53,084
And it always has been, and we've
always had this thing figured out and we
1037
00:41:53,084 --> 00:41:55,094
don't have stress in our relationship.
1038
00:41:55,574 --> 00:42:00,374
But then I'm dating somebody where
it's starting to get stressful,
1039
00:42:00,794 --> 00:42:02,504
it's starting to get difficult.
1040
00:42:02,534 --> 00:42:07,154
I have to learn how to figure
this person out and what, what the
1041
00:42:07,154 --> 00:42:10,784
gives and takes are, and I have
to learn how to make this work.
1042
00:42:11,264 --> 00:42:15,224
And I'm like, I'm putting myself
through this stress and it feels so
1043
00:42:15,224 --> 00:42:19,634
unnecessary because then I gotta go home
to my happy relationship and go, ugh.
1044
00:42:20,459 --> 00:42:23,519
I'm exhausted from this side
relationship that I'm doing.
1045
00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:24,059
You know what I mean?
1046
00:42:24,489 --> 00:42:28,159
So the one other relationship for
me felt like saturation in and of
1047
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:32,239
itself, but I, I, I, I know that, that
people are on different levels, so
1048
00:42:32,629 --> 00:42:32,989
Yeah.
1049
00:42:32,989 --> 00:42:36,889
And probably the word the way
partners being used is different.
1050
00:42:36,889 --> 00:42:40,489
Like your kind of using it
like capital P partner, right.
1051
00:42:40,489 --> 00:42:42,169
Like full in relationship.
1052
00:42:42,169 --> 00:42:42,739
So yeah.
1053
00:42:42,769 --> 00:42:43,969
Two is plenty.
1054
00:42:44,179 --> 00:42:44,359
Yeah.
1055
00:42:44,779 --> 00:42:49,099
I'm assuming the person with 15 is
using, like, there's some lowercase P
1056
00:42:49,099 --> 00:42:53,479
partner, you know, someone that they see
once a month, once a season, you know?
1057
00:42:53,479 --> 00:42:54,139
Yeah, sure.
1058
00:42:54,139 --> 00:42:56,299
With people that they see more regularly.
1059
00:42:56,329 --> 00:42:56,629
Yeah,
1060
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:57,199
of course.
1061
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:57,499
Yeah.
1062
00:42:57,499 --> 00:42:58,339
No, I, that makes sense.
1063
00:42:58,339 --> 00:43:01,529
And thank you for enlightening me
there because, you know, I, I need
1064
00:43:01,529 --> 00:43:02,609
other ways to think of things.
1065
00:43:02,609 --> 00:43:04,769
I think that's why we're all here.
1066
00:43:05,099 --> 00:43:07,289
Uh, now, speaking of which.
1067
00:43:08,009 --> 00:43:10,559
You know, you guys have written
some pretty amazing books.
1068
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:12,959
I want to talk about this new
one that you guys have coming up.
1069
00:43:12,989 --> 00:43:19,389
'cause I know that it's not really
focusing on non-monogamy per se but
1070
00:43:19,479 --> 00:43:21,909
transforming the shame triangle.
1071
00:43:22,689 --> 00:43:24,729
Please fill me in.
1072
00:43:24,759 --> 00:43:28,089
Um, you know, I, I did, I did a little
bit of, uh, reading, which sent me,
1073
00:43:28,089 --> 00:43:33,319
I, I loved it what I saw, and I'm
really interested in reading the rest.
1074
00:43:33,659 --> 00:43:36,239
But if you could kind of break
it down for our listeners.
1075
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:37,499
What, what are we looking at here?
1076
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:40,294
Do you wanna start that
1077
00:43:40,674 --> 00:43:41,374
you can kick out?
1078
00:43:41,444 --> 00:43:41,734
Yeah.
1079
00:43:42,479 --> 00:43:43,589
You guys are total partners.
1080
00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:43,919
Look at that.
1081
00:43:43,919 --> 00:43:44,369
I love
1082
00:43:44,369 --> 00:43:44,429
it.
1083
00:43:44,434 --> 00:43:44,774
Mm-hmm.
1084
00:43:45,194 --> 00:43:52,109
So, you know, what we're really wanting
in our work is to give people what feel
1085
00:43:52,109 --> 00:43:57,329
like the best tools, the tools that are
most effective for creating lived change.
1086
00:43:58,409 --> 00:44:03,379
And so the things that we're noticing in
our work when we're talking about where
1087
00:44:03,379 --> 00:44:07,729
are people getting stuck in their process,
where are these places where consistently
1088
00:44:07,729 --> 00:44:13,369
we're seeing people are struggling,
plateauing, or just feeling like I'm
1089
00:44:13,369 --> 00:44:16,939
not getting to that place experientially
that I'm wanting to with intimacy or
1090
00:44:16,939 --> 00:44:19,159
connection or safety in my relationship.
1091
00:44:20,179 --> 00:44:23,989
And what we started seeing was there
is sort of this orbiting around the
1092
00:44:23,989 --> 00:44:28,219
concept of shame or the experience
of shame and starting to look at
1093
00:44:28,219 --> 00:44:31,699
the way that shame is this really
interesting and complex thing, right?
1094
00:44:31,699 --> 00:44:36,289
It's not emotion in and of
itself, but it employs or brings
1095
00:44:36,289 --> 00:44:41,119
in motivates motions, right?
1096
00:44:41,269 --> 00:44:42,289
In its service.
1097
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:47,149
So as we started to look at that and
see it as this linchpin upon which a
1098
00:44:47,149 --> 00:44:51,619
lot of people's processes was really
hinging, we started to become more
1099
00:44:51,619 --> 00:44:53,239
and more curious about it, right?
1100
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,129
And Jessica had the brilliant.
1101
00:44:55,504 --> 00:44:59,254
Sort of conceptual revelation, right?
1102
00:44:59,254 --> 00:45:03,484
That really, especially through
the IFS perspective, the internal
1103
00:45:03,484 --> 00:45:07,804
family systems perspective, that
what's happening is shame is
1104
00:45:07,804 --> 00:45:13,774
really working in tight conjunction
with several other parts, right?
1105
00:45:13,774 --> 00:45:15,874
So it's not just shame
really, that's working alone.
1106
00:45:15,874 --> 00:45:20,104
It's leveraging other internal
elements of our own lived experience
1107
00:45:20,104 --> 00:45:25,234
that really feel ubiquitous in our
work with individuals and partners.
1108
00:45:25,744 --> 00:45:30,094
And when she was able to make that
link with the drama triangle, which
1109
00:45:30,094 --> 00:45:32,824
a lot of people know in the world
of conflict resolution, right?
1110
00:45:32,824 --> 00:45:36,874
That this is a really effective,
very elegant, very simple, but
1111
00:45:36,874 --> 00:45:43,384
very accurate depiction of how
interpersonal dynamics play out.
1112
00:45:44,194 --> 00:45:47,374
Recognizing that that's actually
something that we've internalized
1113
00:45:47,374 --> 00:45:52,324
and is playing out within us in an
intrapersonal level was revolutionary.
1114
00:45:52,324 --> 00:45:54,484
We both sort of said, this is big.
1115
00:45:55,474 --> 00:45:59,884
This is like a Rosetta Stone of internal
conflict that we're both recognizing
1116
00:45:59,884 --> 00:46:06,244
needs to be addressed to really do the
interpersonal relationship work that
1117
00:46:06,244 --> 00:46:08,164
we're seeing people are stalling out on.
1118
00:46:09,244 --> 00:46:11,614
So it's kind of like we're
needing to take a step back.
1119
00:46:11,614 --> 00:46:14,674
It's almost like we've been skipping
over on some level, some of the 1 0
1120
00:46:14,674 --> 00:46:20,134
1 stuff, and so we're really wanting
to bring this to a larger audience.
1121
00:46:20,214 --> 00:46:24,774
In this sense it's, the book is not
directed to monogamous or non-monogamous.
1122
00:46:24,774 --> 00:46:24,864
Mm-hmm.
1123
00:46:24,864 --> 00:46:26,634
It's just this is fundamental
1124
00:46:26,964 --> 00:46:27,804
general audience.
1125
00:46:27,804 --> 00:46:28,224
Yeah.
1126
00:46:28,224 --> 00:46:28,234
Yeah.
1127
00:46:28,314 --> 00:46:30,744
To anybody who's really,
everybody's wanting.
1128
00:46:31,224 --> 00:46:31,884
Absolutely.
1129
00:46:31,884 --> 00:46:35,994
And who hasn't, to be honest, I don't
know any client or anyone personally
1130
00:46:35,994 --> 00:46:40,314
who hasn't had some relationship,
some intimate relationship with shame.
1131
00:46:40,414 --> 00:46:40,654
Sure.
1132
00:46:41,074 --> 00:46:41,344
Yeah.
1133
00:46:41,584 --> 00:46:43,504
So for us, it just felt primordial.
1134
00:46:44,074 --> 00:46:44,344
Yeah.
1135
00:46:44,404 --> 00:46:46,294
You know, I, I definitely, um.
1136
00:46:46,759 --> 00:46:53,269
When I read what I read, I could
relate to it and I could see initially
1137
00:46:53,329 --> 00:46:57,649
Jessica, when you, when you told me,
well, it doesn't, it doesn't not apply.
1138
00:46:58,019 --> 00:46:59,309
But it does apply.
1139
00:46:59,309 --> 00:46:59,369
Yeah.
1140
00:46:59,399 --> 00:47:00,059
You know what I mean?
1141
00:47:00,059 --> 00:47:03,239
And, and I was like, I didn't quite
understand what you were telling me.
1142
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,909
You were trying to give it to me
without, without giving me too much.
1143
00:47:06,389 --> 00:47:09,029
And then when I read it through,
I was like, oh, well this is,
1144
00:47:09,029 --> 00:47:10,619
this applies to everybody.
1145
00:47:10,619 --> 00:47:10,679
Yeah.
1146
00:47:10,709 --> 00:47:11,819
Every relationship.
1147
00:47:11,824 --> 00:47:11,954
Yeah.
1148
00:47:11,954 --> 00:47:12,394
It's for
1149
00:47:12,594 --> 00:47:12,794
everyone.
1150
00:47:12,794 --> 00:47:13,314
Everything.
1151
00:47:14,369 --> 00:47:14,429
Yeah.
1152
00:47:14,429 --> 00:47:14,549
Great.
1153
00:47:14,549 --> 00:47:18,779
And, um, you know, we, we see
and experience shame, uh, a
1154
00:47:18,779 --> 00:47:21,299
lot in non-monogamy obviously.
1155
00:47:21,304 --> 00:47:21,574
Yeah.
1156
00:47:21,689 --> 00:47:27,279
Um, there, there's a lot of ex
internal shame and external shame.
1157
00:47:27,279 --> 00:47:30,938
Um, and if there was an external
shame, I feel like we would still
1158
00:47:31,178 --> 00:47:34,658
feel internal shame for the fear
of what's everybody gonna think.
1159
00:47:34,748 --> 00:47:35,018
Yeah.
1160
00:47:35,023 --> 00:47:35,153
Yes.
1161
00:47:35,158 --> 00:47:35,408
You
1162
00:47:35,408 --> 00:47:35,738
know?
1163
00:47:36,228 --> 00:47:41,218
But I really, um, I'm really looking
forward to this now, Jessica, what.
1164
00:47:41,863 --> 00:47:43,513
What even brought this up?
1165
00:47:43,513 --> 00:47:45,163
Like what, what brought this out?
1166
00:47:45,163 --> 00:47:46,873
Like how did this even come about?
1167
00:47:47,443 --> 00:47:47,923
Yeah.
1168
00:47:47,923 --> 00:47:51,193
I was doing, you know, more
one-on-one work with people I had
1169
00:47:51,193 --> 00:47:54,793
known and even taught the drama
triangle for years and loved it.
1170
00:47:54,793 --> 00:47:58,423
And so for, if people aren't
familiar, it's the persecutor,
1171
00:47:58,813 --> 00:48:00,343
the victim, and the rescuer.
1172
00:48:00,343 --> 00:48:03,643
Those three archetypal
roles and positions.
1173
00:48:04,123 --> 00:48:05,743
Oh, that in conflict.
1174
00:48:05,743 --> 00:48:07,183
And we don't need three people.
1175
00:48:07,183 --> 00:48:10,513
It could be two people that are
jumping back and forth of being
1176
00:48:10,513 --> 00:48:14,083
in the victim position and you're
the persecutor and back and forth.
1177
00:48:14,083 --> 00:48:16,363
And then I'll apologize to rescue.
1178
00:48:17,683 --> 00:48:22,123
And as Dave said, it's so elegant
and effective and accurate.
1179
00:48:22,453 --> 00:48:26,713
And so then I'm working with people
more one-on-one of like what's getting
1180
00:48:26,713 --> 00:48:30,583
in the way of whatever it is, their
potential of what they want, their
1181
00:48:30,583 --> 00:48:33,673
career, family issues, relationship stuff.
1182
00:48:34,933 --> 00:48:38,503
And it would always come
back to an inner voice.
1183
00:48:39,163 --> 00:48:40,303
That was beating them up.
1184
00:48:41,033 --> 00:48:44,423
And so I hear them describe this
inner voice beating them up.
1185
00:48:44,933 --> 00:48:47,333
And I was like, oh, that's
an inner persecutor.
1186
00:48:47,873 --> 00:48:49,793
The inner villain, the inner bad guy.
1187
00:48:50,033 --> 00:48:50,123
Mm-hmm.
1188
00:48:50,693 --> 00:48:54,383
And it tends to speak to us in
second person, what's wrong with you?
1189
00:48:54,383 --> 00:48:57,043
How could you, you should
have what the, yeah.
1190
00:48:57,403 --> 00:48:58,843
And then I'd go, wait a minute.
1191
00:48:59,263 --> 00:48:59,773
Okay.
1192
00:48:59,773 --> 00:49:01,213
Who's this voice talking to?
1193
00:49:02,353 --> 00:49:05,203
And then I realized, oh, our
inner victim, that's shame.
1194
00:49:05,203 --> 00:49:09,433
It's the part of us that hears
our inner critic beating us up.
1195
00:49:09,613 --> 00:49:09,823
Mm-hmm.
1196
00:49:09,883 --> 00:49:14,503
And in first person goes,
you're right, I am broken.
1197
00:49:14,503 --> 00:49:15,643
I am a failure.
1198
00:49:15,643 --> 00:49:16,813
I am unlovable.
1199
00:49:16,813 --> 00:49:18,523
I'm not enough, I'm too much.
1200
00:49:18,523 --> 00:49:25,663
Whatever our specific story of like,
essentializing, totalizing our deficiency.
1201
00:49:25,993 --> 00:49:26,283
Sure.
1202
00:49:26,368 --> 00:49:27,658
So just that, right.
1203
00:49:27,658 --> 00:49:31,198
Working with those two parts is
like a part that beats us up.
1204
00:49:31,198 --> 00:49:34,378
A part that feels and
absorbs it is pretty intense.
1205
00:49:35,293 --> 00:49:40,423
But then there's these escapers right
parts that wanna rescue and go, I don't
1206
00:49:40,423 --> 00:49:44,983
wanna feel my shame or hear my inner
critic, so I'm gonna go escape that.
1207
00:49:45,493 --> 00:49:48,043
And we can escape in
several different ways.
1208
00:49:48,073 --> 00:49:50,053
We can try to over function.
1209
00:49:50,173 --> 00:49:54,793
I'm gonna achieve, I'm gonna over
caretake, I'm going to, you know,
1210
00:49:54,793 --> 00:49:57,343
have status, whatever it is.
1211
00:49:57,568 --> 00:49:57,988
Mm-hmm.
1212
00:49:58,368 --> 00:49:59,653
Or I'm gonna over function.
1213
00:49:59,713 --> 00:50:00,403
Under function.
1214
00:50:00,403 --> 00:50:03,643
I'm gonna zone out, I'm gonna
stream too much, or I'm gonna
1215
00:50:03,643 --> 00:50:05,413
smoke too much, or whatever it is.
1216
00:50:05,413 --> 00:50:10,813
That sort of like temporarily numbs
and avoids that feeling of shame
1217
00:50:10,813 --> 00:50:13,543
or hearing or inner critic, right?
1218
00:50:13,603 --> 00:50:17,143
Or we can project it out where
we get aggressive, right?
1219
00:50:17,143 --> 00:50:20,293
I don't wanna hear my own shame or
hear my own critic, so I'm gonna become
1220
00:50:20,293 --> 00:50:22,423
an outer critic and put it onto you.
1221
00:50:23,773 --> 00:50:27,463
Or we can get aggressive with ourselves
as a way of escaping where it's
1222
00:50:27,463 --> 00:50:33,643
more extreme behaviors, like risky
behaviors that are causing harm to us.
1223
00:50:34,693 --> 00:50:35,413
Wow.
1224
00:50:35,713 --> 00:50:40,273
What, and what I realized is there's a
lot of resources for these separately.
1225
00:50:40,443 --> 00:50:43,323
There's like alcoholism
or addiction, right.
1226
00:50:43,323 --> 00:50:46,623
Those are our escapers or
depression is even an escaper.
1227
00:50:46,623 --> 00:50:49,053
There's a lot of stuff for
that, but it's not connecting
1228
00:50:49,053 --> 00:50:51,003
it to shame and inner critic.
1229
00:50:52,083 --> 00:50:56,283
And if we don't work on those two
parts, we kind of only get so far.
1230
00:50:56,553 --> 00:50:57,963
And it really does apply.
1231
00:50:57,963 --> 00:51:03,723
I mean, that all applies to like my
first relationship and it was, we were
1232
00:51:03,723 --> 00:51:07,083
not swingers, we were just together.
1233
00:51:07,353 --> 00:51:07,803
Yeah.
1234
00:51:08,073 --> 00:51:10,113
There was cheating and whatnot for mis.
1235
00:51:10,118 --> 00:51:10,408
Yeah.
1236
00:51:10,413 --> 00:51:10,953
Yeah.
1237
00:51:11,133 --> 00:51:15,693
Um, and so a lot of that shame and
it does follow you through Yeah.
1238
00:51:15,843 --> 00:51:17,763
Relationships and relationships.
1239
00:51:17,763 --> 00:51:18,003
It's,
1240
00:51:18,113 --> 00:51:18,533
well, yeah.
1241
00:51:18,533 --> 00:51:18,893
Right.
1242
00:51:18,893 --> 00:51:22,943
And if I have too harsh of an inner
critic and shame when my partner
1243
00:51:22,943 --> 00:51:25,853
gives me feedback, I can't take it.
1244
00:51:25,913 --> 00:51:26,093
Nope.
1245
00:51:26,333 --> 00:51:26,543
Yeah.
1246
00:51:26,843 --> 00:51:27,053
Right.
1247
00:51:27,053 --> 00:51:30,773
I can't receive the importance of
the feedback they're giving me.
1248
00:51:30,773 --> 00:51:33,113
'cause it goes straight
into a shame response, which
1249
00:51:33,113 --> 00:51:34,943
then is a defense response.
1250
00:51:35,633 --> 00:51:35,693
Yeah.
1251
00:51:35,693 --> 00:51:37,673
So often that's what's
getting in the work.
1252
00:51:37,673 --> 00:51:40,673
Dave and I were really seeing, oh,
this is what's also getting in the
1253
00:51:40,673 --> 00:51:44,573
way our inner shame triangle is
getting in the way of relationships.
1254
00:51:45,383 --> 00:51:45,623
Right.
1255
00:51:45,623 --> 00:51:48,863
Or all of our escapers or
these codependent strategies
1256
00:51:48,863 --> 00:51:50,513
were stuck in with my escaper.
1257
00:51:50,513 --> 00:51:52,913
And your escaper are
codependent with each other.
1258
00:51:53,543 --> 00:51:53,753
Yeah.
1259
00:51:53,758 --> 00:51:58,193
And this is, this is really where you
start to get specific and nuanced in
1260
00:51:58,193 --> 00:52:00,413
sort of the importance of this work.
1261
00:52:01,073 --> 00:52:01,253
Right.
1262
00:52:01,253 --> 00:52:06,743
And being able to intersect
between interwork or inner work.
1263
00:52:06,863 --> 00:52:09,173
In the interpersonal work.
1264
00:52:09,713 --> 00:52:13,283
'cause when you're talking about conflict,
what you're trying to figure out is how
1265
00:52:13,283 --> 00:52:15,203
do we hold the hurt in our relationship?
1266
00:52:15,203 --> 00:52:16,673
So if I feel hurt by you.
1267
00:52:17,588 --> 00:52:18,758
How do I hold that?
1268
00:52:18,758 --> 00:52:20,138
How do I communicate that?
1269
00:52:20,618 --> 00:52:23,798
The flip side of that is
how do I receive your hurt?
1270
00:52:24,188 --> 00:52:24,458
Yeah.
1271
00:52:24,458 --> 00:52:29,018
And so what we're seeing is that flip
side, when partners are in the moment of
1272
00:52:29,018 --> 00:52:33,938
needing to be able to receive well the
feedback that they've been heard or had
1273
00:52:33,938 --> 00:52:39,098
an impact right on their partner, it's,
that's when the shame triangle starts
1274
00:52:39,098 --> 00:52:44,438
to kick in and it starts to inhibit that
capacity to take that feedback in, right?
1275
00:52:44,438 --> 00:52:47,348
That you've hurt somebody,
your behavior has had an impact
1276
00:52:47,348 --> 00:52:48,638
even if you didn't intend to.
1277
00:52:49,538 --> 00:52:53,138
And it's specifically the the shame
triangle dynamics that keep people
1278
00:52:53,138 --> 00:52:56,588
from being able to really take
that in because it's too painful.
1279
00:52:56,708 --> 00:52:56,858
Mm-hmm.
1280
00:52:57,098 --> 00:52:57,158
'cause
1281
00:52:57,158 --> 00:53:00,518
it's going right to that idea that
I'm a bad person, I'm a bad partner,
1282
00:53:00,788 --> 00:53:02,348
nothing I do is right.
1283
00:53:02,348 --> 00:53:02,588
Right.
1284
00:53:02,588 --> 00:53:03,788
I can't get it right.
1285
00:53:03,968 --> 00:53:04,058
Yeah.
1286
00:53:04,058 --> 00:53:06,683
Those kind of stories
that we start to say.
1287
00:53:07,238 --> 00:53:07,418
Yeah.
1288
00:53:07,418 --> 00:53:07,688
And you
1289
00:53:07,688 --> 00:53:10,808
really do see it and hear it in
a lot of different relationships.
1290
00:53:10,808 --> 00:53:11,468
Not only.
1291
00:53:11,963 --> 00:53:14,753
Not only in the ethical non-monogamy.
1292
00:53:14,813 --> 00:53:15,173
Yeah.
1293
00:53:15,233 --> 00:53:15,413
Yeah.
1294
00:53:15,413 --> 00:53:19,523
Well, and you know, for, I'm, I'm
a big believer in anytime we have
1295
00:53:19,523 --> 00:53:23,323
insecurities about things and, and
whatever comes up that seems negative,
1296
00:53:23,683 --> 00:53:25,003
I always wanna get to the root of it.
1297
00:53:25,303 --> 00:53:25,453
Yeah.
1298
00:53:25,483 --> 00:53:29,383
And, you know, you want to dig, dig, dig,
dig until you can get to the right spot
1299
00:53:29,383 --> 00:53:31,693
that says, this is why you have this.
1300
00:53:31,693 --> 00:53:31,703
Yeah.
1301
00:53:31,753 --> 00:53:33,253
This is why you're feeling this.
1302
00:53:33,583 --> 00:53:36,703
And essentially that's
what you guys have done.
1303
00:53:36,793 --> 00:53:37,063
Yeah.
1304
00:53:37,128 --> 00:53:37,828
You guys, that's amazing.
1305
00:53:37,828 --> 00:53:42,183
You guys have taken this, this
whirlwind of issues that, that we
1306
00:53:42,183 --> 00:53:45,333
see as people in, in regular life.
1307
00:53:45,903 --> 00:53:49,533
And you guys have dug down to
the absolute root of it, which a
1308
00:53:49,533 --> 00:53:51,333
lot of it revolves around shame.
1309
00:53:51,573 --> 00:53:53,258
And that internal voice, it really does.
1310
00:53:53,373 --> 00:53:54,873
My internal voice is my parents.
1311
00:53:54,983 --> 00:53:56,703
You know, it's just one of those things.
1312
00:53:56,708 --> 00:53:56,868
Yeah.
1313
00:53:57,333 --> 00:53:57,663
Yeah.
1314
00:53:57,663 --> 00:54:01,053
Um, so I find that incredibly interesting.
1315
00:54:01,053 --> 00:54:05,043
Now, as far as is the, has
the book been released yet
1316
00:54:05,133 --> 00:54:05,523
guys?
1317
00:54:06,318 --> 00:54:07,788
It's coming out on Halloween.
1318
00:54:07,818 --> 00:54:08,538
Halloween.
1319
00:54:08,538 --> 00:54:11,208
I knew it was, I knew I didn't
think it had, but I didn't
1320
00:54:11,208 --> 00:54:12,558
want to step over that either.
1321
00:54:12,918 --> 00:54:17,308
Uh, so your book is getting released
on Halloween, uh, this show will
1322
00:54:17,308 --> 00:54:21,688
actually be dropped the week before,
uh, that Sunday before Halloween.
1323
00:54:21,928 --> 00:54:22,738
Oh, nice.
1324
00:54:22,738 --> 00:54:23,248
Perfect.
1325
00:54:23,303 --> 00:54:23,483
Yeah.
1326
00:54:23,483 --> 00:54:23,813
Perfect.
1327
00:54:23,993 --> 00:54:27,678
So it'll be the, uh, the,
what is that the 26th?
1328
00:54:27,828 --> 00:54:28,038
Yeah,
1329
00:54:28,043 --> 00:54:29,088
yeah, yeah.
1330
00:54:29,088 --> 00:54:29,658
Well, perfect.
1331
00:54:29,658 --> 00:54:33,558
Well, people hear this and it's before
the 31st and they go to our websites.
1332
00:54:33,558 --> 00:54:39,048
There's a 20%, um, coupon directly for,
from the distributor to get the book.
1333
00:54:39,048 --> 00:54:41,088
So Oh, even get a little deal.
1334
00:54:41,178 --> 00:54:41,208
Okay.
1335
00:54:41,448 --> 00:54:42,558
Oh, look at that.
1336
00:54:42,638 --> 00:54:45,248
We'll have everything
that our listeners need.
1337
00:54:45,248 --> 00:54:46,988
It'll be there in the show notes.
1338
00:54:46,988 --> 00:54:49,298
I've already downloaded your
other book, so I'm just curious.
1339
00:54:49,298 --> 00:54:49,478
Yeah, she
1340
00:54:49,478 --> 00:54:51,548
was, she was listening to you narrate.
1341
00:54:51,578 --> 00:54:53,078
So we've been hearing you all morning.
1342
00:54:53,288 --> 00:54:53,468
You know
1343
00:54:53,468 --> 00:54:54,653
our voice Well, we do.
1344
00:54:54,653 --> 00:54:55,053
That's right.
1345
00:54:55,273 --> 00:54:55,933
Yes, that's right.
1346
00:54:57,353 --> 00:55:02,558
But so with the book releasing on
Halloween where can we see you guys?
1347
00:55:02,558 --> 00:55:05,408
Are y'all gonna have some book
signings coming up, or is there, uh,
1348
00:55:05,408 --> 00:55:08,348
what are the following events that
that'll be following the book release.
1349
00:55:09,308 --> 00:55:13,028
Yeah, so we're gonna do, the first
one's gonna be on the 28th here in
1350
00:55:13,028 --> 00:55:14,798
Asheville, which is where we're located.
1351
00:55:14,798 --> 00:55:17,888
There's a really sweet bookstore
downtown called Malaprops.
1352
00:55:17,918 --> 00:55:19,658
So on the 28th, we're gonna be there.
1353
00:55:19,898 --> 00:55:20,198
Okay.
1354
00:55:20,438 --> 00:55:22,838
Then we're gonna be in
Atlanta on November.
1355
00:55:22,868 --> 00:55:24,008
Is it the fourth or the third?
1356
00:55:24,008 --> 00:55:24,153
The fourth.
1357
00:55:24,153 --> 00:55:25,033
Tuesday the fourth,
1358
00:55:25,808 --> 00:55:26,048
yeah.
1359
00:55:26,048 --> 00:55:29,228
Cherish books in Atlanta,
which we're excited about.
1360
00:55:29,708 --> 00:55:33,398
And then skip a week and
the week of the, what is it?
1361
00:55:33,428 --> 00:55:34,508
The,
1362
00:55:34,513 --> 00:55:35,828
the week of the 17th.
1363
00:55:35,828 --> 00:55:36,518
17th
1364
00:55:36,938 --> 00:55:37,148
December.
1365
00:55:37,718 --> 00:55:40,418
We're gonna be in Cali, so
we're gonna be in the Bay Area.
1366
00:55:40,418 --> 00:55:43,688
We're gonna do a series of
events, kind of back and forth
1367
00:55:43,688 --> 00:55:45,818
between San Francisco and Oakland.
1368
00:55:46,358 --> 00:55:50,528
And that's gonna culminate in a day
long workshop for people that are
1369
00:55:50,528 --> 00:55:55,748
really wanting to take a, a deep
dive into this work on Saturday 22nd.
1370
00:55:56,498 --> 00:56:00,648
So anyone that's interested, I guess
we should put that on our website too.
1371
00:56:02,563 --> 00:56:06,253
It's gonna be, it's gonna be on my
website before y'all come on, right?
1372
00:56:06,253 --> 00:56:07,333
No, it's on my website.
1373
00:56:07,908 --> 00:56:08,088
Yeah.
1374
00:56:08,088 --> 00:56:08,448
People
1375
00:56:08,448 --> 00:56:12,558
can register or see all of the,
you know, bookstore signings
1376
00:56:12,558 --> 00:56:14,148
or the day long workshop,
1377
00:56:14,718 --> 00:56:18,558
which worth saying is www.jessicafern.com.
1378
00:56:18,828 --> 00:56:19,818
Yes, that's right.
1379
00:56:20,388 --> 00:56:23,928
It was gonna get dropped and now that I've
said it, I can like, uh, you know, post
1380
00:56:23,928 --> 00:56:25,368
it over and over again throughout the show
1381
00:56:25,908 --> 00:56:26,028
you go.
1382
00:56:26,028 --> 00:56:26,418
So that works.
1383
00:56:27,018 --> 00:56:29,748
Uh, well, I, I am just tickled
pink that y'all were here.
1384
00:56:29,748 --> 00:56:33,798
I am exceptionally excited for
the future of this new book
1385
00:56:33,798 --> 00:56:34,788
that you guys have coming out.
1386
00:56:34,788 --> 00:56:36,438
I'm looking forward to getting it myself.
1387
00:56:36,738 --> 00:56:36,828
Yes.
1388
00:56:36,978 --> 00:56:38,898
Jessica and David, you two are amazing.
1389
00:56:38,898 --> 00:56:42,708
Seriously, this was one of those
episodes that sticks with you equal
1390
00:56:42,708 --> 00:56:45,228
parts brain food and heart work.
1391
00:56:45,318 --> 00:56:45,948
I love that.
1392
00:56:45,953 --> 00:56:46,223
I love that.
1393
00:56:46,248 --> 00:56:46,818
Yeah.
1394
00:56:47,098 --> 00:56:49,648
We all brought our a hundred percent.
1395
00:56:50,458 --> 00:56:50,578
That's
1396
00:56:50,578 --> 00:56:50,668
right.
1397
00:56:51,683 --> 00:56:53,398
There's no 50 50 here.
1398
00:56:53,428 --> 00:56:53,668
No one.
1399
00:56:53,668 --> 00:56:54,653
This wasn't 50 50.
1400
00:56:54,653 --> 00:56:56,093
50 50. That's right.
1401
00:56:57,118 --> 00:56:59,053
Uh, that math don't be mathing, right?
1402
00:56:59,053 --> 00:56:59,423
That's right.
1403
00:57:00,508 --> 00:57:00,718
Yeah.
1404
00:57:00,718 --> 00:57:02,218
Thank you so much for having us on.
1405
00:57:02,218 --> 00:57:03,093
Yeah, it's so great to meet you.
1406
00:57:03,313 --> 00:57:04,648
You know, it's great to meet you
1407
00:57:04,648 --> 00:57:05,038
guys too.
1408
00:57:05,038 --> 00:57:06,748
And you know what, I've got your schedule.
1409
00:57:06,748 --> 00:57:07,888
I may pop up sometime.
1410
00:57:07,888 --> 00:57:10,588
I don't know, we like to travel,
so we may show up to one of those
1411
00:57:10,588 --> 00:57:12,498
events and get our book signed.
1412
00:57:12,528 --> 00:57:13,248
Yeah, that would be pretty.
1413
00:57:13,458 --> 00:57:15,678
And there will be more in 2026.
1414
00:57:15,678 --> 00:57:18,168
We're gonna be launching
more online courses and more
1415
00:57:18,168 --> 00:57:20,748
in-person, longer workshops, so
1416
00:57:21,948 --> 00:57:22,058
I love that.
1417
00:57:22,058 --> 00:57:24,138
You know, I feel like there's
so much that was unsaid.
1418
00:57:24,138 --> 00:57:26,808
I would love to have you guys
back on the show at some point.
1419
00:57:26,858 --> 00:57:29,678
With that said, thank you guys so much
for sharing your time, your insight,
1420
00:57:29,678 --> 00:57:33,968
and for helping us all love a little bit
better and communicate a little cleaner.
1421
00:57:34,418 --> 00:57:37,628
If you want to dig into more of
their work, grab Jessica's new book,
1422
00:57:37,658 --> 00:57:42,098
transforming The Shame Triangle, and
check out Poly Wise and Poly Secure.
1423
00:57:42,368 --> 00:57:49,338
If you haven't yet, we'll have
all their links at our website
1424
00:57:49,668 --> 00:57:52,213
at www.beyond-monogamy.com,
under the guest bio section.
1425
00:57:52,588 --> 00:57:55,978
And remember, you can catch Beyond
Monogamy with Adam and Pris every Thursday
1426
00:57:55,978 --> 00:58:00,718
on full swap radio.com, streaming at
one and 6:00 PM Central Standard Time.
1427
00:58:00,778 --> 00:58:05,158
Yes, and if you're loving what we do
and want to help keep the show running.
1428
00:58:05,478 --> 00:58:06,618
And keep me caffeinated.
1429
00:58:07,398 --> 00:58:09,468
Join our crew on Patreon.
1430
00:58:09,468 --> 00:58:14,808
We've got early access episodes, after
hours, clips, bonus mini shows, discord
1431
00:58:14,808 --> 00:58:19,008
chats, and probably some chaos that we
shouldn't put anywhere else, like before.
1432
00:58:19,038 --> 00:58:21,408
Uh, Jessica and David
was, I I was singing.
1433
00:58:21,413 --> 00:58:23,808
Yeah, I was singing, I was a songbird.
1434
00:58:23,898 --> 00:58:27,328
And that's what you get with the Patreon,
get to know me a little bit better.
1435
00:58:27,538 --> 00:58:31,628
So just, head over to patreon.com,
look up Beyond Monogamy with Adam
1436
00:58:31,628 --> 00:58:35,318
and Paris, or hit the link at our
website and you can pick your tier.
1437
00:58:35,318 --> 00:58:37,508
Join the fam and come hang out with us.
1438
00:58:37,688 --> 00:58:38,258
Yes.
1439
00:58:38,618 --> 00:58:40,868
Um, and also don't forget to
subscribe, share, and drop a
1440
00:58:40,868 --> 00:58:42,248
review wherever you're listening.
1441
00:58:42,248 --> 00:58:44,948
It really helps the show grow and
keeps this conversation going.
1442
00:58:45,128 --> 00:58:48,668
Yes, so big thanks to Jessica
Fern and David Cooley for
1443
00:58:48,668 --> 00:58:49,808
hanging out with us today.
1444
00:58:49,808 --> 00:58:51,218
Thank you so much.
1445
00:58:51,278 --> 00:58:51,608
Yes.
1446
00:58:51,968 --> 00:58:53,048
And, and and by the way,
1447
00:58:53,648 --> 00:58:53,898
thank you, Pris.
1448
00:58:53,993 --> 00:58:58,418
Um, you know, we, we can't afford our
therapists anymore, so I feel like it's
1449
00:58:58,418 --> 00:59:00,338
very important that we all become friends.
1450
00:59:00,748 --> 00:59:03,868
So that I can throw my problems
at you guys and feel better about
1451
00:59:03,868 --> 00:59:05,608
myself after 30 minutes or so.
1452
00:59:05,668 --> 00:59:05,938
Okay.
1453
00:59:05,968 --> 00:59:06,178
Yeah.
1454
00:59:06,178 --> 00:59:09,838
For every, every relational crisis, you
just have a podcast episode and come on.
1455
00:59:10,318 --> 00:59:11,248
I love that.
1456
00:59:11,253 --> 00:59:12,713
That's, that's perfect way for me.
1457
00:59:12,713 --> 00:59:12,993
Way do it.
1458
00:59:12,993 --> 00:59:13,258
That's right.
1459
00:59:13,258 --> 00:59:15,633
We're just gonna throw all sorts of
problems at you and we'll feel in it.
1460
00:59:15,633 --> 00:59:16,348
David, you feel What
1461
00:59:16,348 --> 00:59:16,828
is nap?
1462
00:59:17,338 --> 00:59:19,138
I'm not gonna hold you anymore, Dave.
1463
00:59:19,288 --> 00:59:20,248
I promise you.
1464
00:59:20,668 --> 00:59:23,698
And with that, thanks everybody
for listening and we will
1465
00:59:23,698 --> 00:59:24,988
see you guys next week.
1466
00:59:25,798 --> 00:59:25,858
Bye.
Jessica Fern
Author / Therapist
Jessica Fern holds a Master’s degree in Conflict Resolution, is a Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, a trained Internal Family Systems (IFS) practitioner, and an integrative therapist drawing on 25 years of experience in somatic, narrative, psychotherapeutic, and spiritual healing modalities. She is the internationally recognized author of Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma, and Nonmonogamy, The Polysecure Workbook, and Polywise: A Deeper Dive Into Navigating Open Relationships. Through her international private practice, Jessica works with individuals, couples, and multi-partner relationships to break free from reactive patterns, cultural conditioning, insecure attachment, and past trauma—empowering them to embody new possibilities in life and love. Learn more at JessicaFern.com.
David Cooley
Author / Restorative Justice Facilitator
David Cooley is a professional Restorative Justice facilitator, diversity and privilege awareness trainer, and bilingual cultural broker. He is the creator of the Restorative Relationship Conversations model, a process that transforms interpersonal conflict into deeper connection, intimacy and repair. In his private practice, David specializes in working with non-monogamous and LGBTQ partnerships, incorporating a variety of modalities including trauma-informed care, attachment theory, somatic practices, narrative theory, and mindfulness-based techniques.
